Change of heart on socialized medicine

[pathia]

But you are here and unless you are on something like a criminal wanted list there is nothing stopping you from leaving except your will.

As I have repeatedly mentioned, all 1st world countries require a low to zero debt for immigration, this includes the US itself. All this medical debt I carry counts. I cannot emigrate without purging my debt, but since my health problems are chronic, there’s no way to do that.

 

[royal_archer]

As I have repeatedly mentioned, all 1st world countries require a low to zero debt for immigration, this includes the US itself. All this medical debt I carry counts. I cannot emigrate without purging my debt, but since my health problems are chronic, there’s no way to do that.

What about 2nd world countries?

 

[pathia]

What about 2nd world countries?

Is there a second world anymore? Basically every country in europe, mexico, canada, japan, austrailia, anything where an American could emigrate to and hope to stand a chance, has these rules.

 

[royal_archer]

Is there a second world anymore? Basically every country in europe, mexico, canada, japan, austrailia, anything where an American could emigrate to and hope to stand a chance, has these rules.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World

 

[aspawloski4th]

and do you think that not trying will work better for you?

Ok when should I stop? Iv’e done stuff I absolutely hate for 2 decades and gotten no reward for it. If I diedd and went to Hell today I wouldn’t notice the difference. I have a friend who got treated the same because oh is mild autism. For the owner a busniness is about making money, but for most management its about being hip , having a clique and as many as you can get to brown nose you. I have had all I am capable of taking. If I wasn’t aught coping skills in special ed Id been dead long ago.Israel was an upright nation most of it’s existance, but when it got to be evil like the nations around it God lets the evil empire of Babylon carry it off. Thats the way I look at the business world of today. If that happens I will not be mourning it one second. I doubt God will be either. Lets say I’m 85 and havent achieved anything yet, should I keep trying then?

 

[cynic]

I for one have made those choices. For instance I was at a temporary job with a dozen other temps and when the work was done, two of us went and found something productive to do while the others sat around waiting to be told what to do. A little while later that other person and I were put in charge and I was offered a full time job. (I think the other guy got a perm job elsewhere) Those people who sat around kept complaining about how unfair it was that they didn’t get to opportunity. A lot of what I read in these forums reminds me of those people who had the opportunity in front of them, chose to ignore it, and then compained that the world is unfair. That was one of many times I made a choice that gave me the chance to pull myself up. Since then I have seen many others that just seem incapable of understanding the opportunities in front of them because they have some type of entitlement mentality where they feel the opportunities should be handed to them on a silver platter. But those opportunities are like rocks in a stream, sometimes you have to turnover a lot of rocks to start finding the gold nuggets. With some here it seems like you tried a rock or two and then gave up when you did not get instant gratification. News flash those that persevere will succeed and those who are rewarded for not trying will be doomed to failure.

How is this related to health care, insurance, those without etc.?

Another “I’m superior” post it seems… what we are supposed to take from this I’m guessing is that only a portion of the workforce, the successful upwardly mobile middle class should be able to get insurance.

 

[4elise]

How is this related to health care, the cost of insurance, those who can’t afford to pay etc.?

Another “I’m superior” post it seems… what we are supposed to take from this I’m guessing is that only a portion of the workforce, the successful upwardly mobile middle class should be able to get insurance.

Thank you… that was what I was taking from the posts too…

 

[Ella]

How is this related to health care, insurance, those without etc.?

Another “I’m superior” post it seems… what we are supposed to take from this I’m guessing is that only a portion of the workforce, the successful upwardly mobile middle class should be able to get insurance.

Precisely.

 

[4elise]

Some on this thread seem to lack the ability to ‘walk a mile’ in the other’s shoe…

Congratulations to those for whom effort and circumstance has ‘paid off’ — sadly others, who have worked as hard (or harder) have not been as fortunate - *(certainly there may be some who have not worked as hard or been as persistent) * - but it is uncharitable to assume that the later is the case - rather it is the challenging circumstances, lack of opportunities, not being in the right place at the right time, chronic illness, that indeed contribute to struggles ---- INCLUDING not being able to obtain adequate health insurance

While I completely believe that the Catholic voice should also ensure that no federal funds are used for abortion / we should also be speaking for the poor / those for whom circumstances have made it impossible to provide health care for themselves or their families… and in fact… that is what the Catholic Bishops ARE saying:

usccb.org/sdwp/national/health1.shtml
Letter to the U.S. Senate on Healthcare from the chairmen of the committees on
Domestic Social Development, Pro-Life Activities, and Migration:
Bishop Murphy, Archbishop Rigali, Bishop Wester
September 30, 2009

We urge you to

1. Support long overdue health care reform that covers all people and protects the life,
   dignity, and health of all. Health care reform that meets this standard is an important
   national priority and moral imperative. Reform should make quality health care affordable and accessible to everyone.
2. Support a fair and just health care reform bill that excludes mandated coverage for
   abortion, and upholds longstanding laws that restrict abortion funding and protect
   conscience rights. No one should be required to pay for or participate in abortion. It is
   essential to clearly include longstanding and widely supported federal restrictions on
   abortion funding/mandates and protections for rights of conscience.
3. Support effective measures to safeguard the health of immigrants, their children and all of society. Maintain an adequate safety net for those who remain uncovered. Eliminate the five-year waiting period banning immigrants lawfully residing in the United States from enrolling in Medicaid. Do not impose barriers (e.g., waiting period to obtain subsidies) on immigrants seeking to obtain private health care coverage.

Health care is not just another issue for the Church or for a healthy society. It is a fundamental issue of human life and dignity. Health care is a critical component of the Catholic Church’s ministry. One out of six patients is cared for in Catholic hospitals. We bring both strong convictions and everyday experience to the issue of health care.

 

[Shoshana]

How is this related to health care, insurance, those without etc.?

Another “I’m superior” post it seems… what we are supposed to take from this I’m guessing is that only a portion of the workforce, the successful upwardly mobile middle class should be able to get insurance.

Bingo! :newidea:

 

[Contarini]

Thou shall not steal

But that begs the question: you haven’t established that taxation is stealing.

Though shall not covet thy neighbors goods.

Again, you assume a particular interpretation without providing a shred of argument for it.

The New Testament simply dismiss taxes as a worldly issue: give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s and unto God what is God’s.

Assuming that this interpretation is correct (of which I am highly dubious–I think there are reasons to believe that Jesus is tacitly criticizing their possession of Roman coins in the first place), that works squarely against your position. If Jesus says to give Caesar the taxes he demands, then clearly Caesar is not stealing!

Jesus did not say go to the governement to achieve the charity that you are unwilling to give.

But he also didn’t say “refuse to pay taxes if the taxes are going to help the poor.” In fact, the taxes would be used for much worse things, like invading the lands of “barbarians” and enslaving them.

In the case of tithing all contributed at the same rate. Unlike in our society where where a large mass of individuals are exploiting the political process in order to take money from a minority of people while they pay nothing.

So I agree with you that the Bible/Church does not say that paying taxes is a sin, It is clear that the Bible can not be used as justification for using coercive means to take from one and give it to another.

But by your own argument the Bible doesn’t have anything to say *one way or the other. *So your argument that “progressive” taxation is stealing completely fails. You are reading a secular ideology into Scripture.

Edwin

 

[apromisemade]

Let’s say I get an extra hundred dollars. The crux of the conversation is either of two options.

1. I give the money to those around me who are needy. Four of these people each get $25.
2. The government takes it and some goes to politicians, some goes to pork projects, some goes to pencil pushers, some goes to foriegn countries and $25 of those dollars get spread over 100 Million people.

Personally, I think option 1 is the better option.

FYI, Nonprofits and charity organizations have employees to pay and logistics to fund just like anyone else.

 

[royal_archer]

Ok when should I stop? Iv’e done stuff I absolutely hate for 2 decades and gotten no reward for it. If I diedd and went to Hell today I wouldn’t notice the difference. I have a friend who got treated the same because oh is mild autism. For the owner a busniness is about making money, but for most management its about being hip , having a clique and as many as you can get to brown nose you. I have had all I am capable of taking. If I wasn’t aught coping skills in special ed Id been dead long ago.Israel was an upright nation most of it’s existance, but when it got to be evil like the nations around it God lets the evil empire of Babylon carry it off. Thats the way I look at the business world of today. If that happens I will not be mourning it one second. I doubt God will be either. Lets say I’m 85 and havent achieved anything yet, should I keep trying then?

You seem to be missing the obvious answer. If what you have been trying, isn’t working, try something new.

 

[royal_archer]

How is this related to health care, insurance, those without etc.?

Another “I’m superior” post it seems… what we are supposed to take from this I’m guessing is that only a portion of the workforce, the successful upwardly mobile middle class should be able to get insurance.

The point is that nearly everyone is able to move upward and get to the middle class and get insurance. Those who do not move up need to start reevaluating themselves and humbley accept that they may have a role in their plight and then accept the advice of others.

 

[royal_archer]

Some on this thread seem to lack the ability to ‘walk a mile’ in the other’s shoe…

Congratulations to those for whom effort and circumstance has ‘paid off’ — sadly others, who have worked as hard (or harder) have not been as fortunate - *(certainly there may be some who have not worked as hard or been as persistent) * - but it is uncharitable to assume that the later is the case - rather it is the challenging circumstances, lack of opportunities, not being in the right place at the right time, chronic illness, that indeed contribute to struggles ---- INCLUDING not being able to obtain adequate health insurance

While I completely believe that the Catholic voice should also ensure that no federal funds are used for abortion / we should also be speaking for the poor / those for whom circumstances have made it impossible to provide health care for themselves or their families… and in fact… that is what the Catholic Bishops ARE saying:

usccb.org/sdwp/national/health1.shtml
Letter to the U.S. Senate on Healthcare from the chairmen of the committees on
Domestic Social Development, Pro-Life Activities, and Migration:
Bishop Murphy, Archbishop Rigali, Bishop Wester
September 30, 2009

Once again, they are silent on how it is paid for. If we were to drill off shore and generate revenue with out discriminatory taxes, then we could give free health care. The other option is to use legislation (or remove legislation) to reduce the cost of health care.

There are many options on the table that will improve the health care situation for all with out discriminatory taxes but it seems like those options get dismissed in favor of the discriminatory taxes. One can only surmise that health care may not be the goal but just an excuse to pass those discriminatory taxes. After all look at this thread and you will see the vile hatred toward those who would be the prime victims of such taxes.

As for the difference between the idle and the truly needy, I do not go out of my way to judge them (like some here are very quick to judge the productive). The only time I feel any inclination to make any evaluation is when they want my money (or money of those I am defending) If two beggers approach me on the street asking for money and I have a $20dollar bill, do I not have the right to judge who is the more needy? If one of those two tries to pick my pocket instead of asking for that money, don’t I have the right to deny them? If you do not wish for me to make such a judgement don’t try to take the money.

If someone keeps comming to me for money and I see that they are able bodied but choose to live a life of sin exploiting the charity of others, don’t I have an obligation to inform them of their sin?

 

[royal_archer]

But that begs the question: you haven’t established that taxation is stealing.

Again, you assume a particular interpretation without providing a shred of argument for it.

Yes I did:

read here

Assuming that this interpretation is correct (of which I am highly dubious–I think there are reasons to believe that Jesus is tacitly criticizing their possession of Roman coins in the first place), that works squarely against your position. If Jesus says to give Caesar the taxes he demands, then clearly Caesar is not stealing!

If the taxes are being used to the bennefit of society as a whole and in accordance with the law of the land then it is not stealing. Our constitution does not authorize wealth redistribution schemes. Further these funds are not helping society as a whole they are going to a group of people that do not represent the country as a whole. Also Jesus did not pass judgement on whether the taxes were good or bad or whether they were stealing or not. He simply said don’t bother with the civil structure. Keep in mind this could have been the perfect forum for him to endorse the role of government in society but he did not. Add to that several previous Biblical references to oppressive governements and slavery.

But he also didn’t say “refuse to pay taxes if the taxes are going to help the poor.” In fact, the taxes would be used for much worse things, like invading the lands of “barbarians” and enslaving them.

Irrelevant since he did not endorse or deny the value of taxes. In a way it is like you are driving in traffic and someone is trying to cut you off. It is sometimes better to just allow the person to do as they wish than to argue about it. But that is not an endorsement of the reckless drivers act.

But by your own argument the Bible doesn’t have anything to say *one way or the other. *So your argument that “progressive” taxation is stealing completely fails. You are reading a secular ideology into Scripture.

Edwin

The Bible does have something to say, Though shall not covet and thou shall not steal.

 

[royal_archer]

FYI, Nonprofits and charity organizations have employees to pay and logistics to fund just like anyone else.

I was not talking about non proffits or charities I was talking about giving money away directly to those truly in need.

 

[4elise]

The point is that nearly everyone is able to move upward and get to the middle class and get insurance. Those who do not move up need to start reevaluating themselves and humbley accept that they may have a role in their plight and then accept the advice of others.

I disagree with your position that ‘nearly everyone’ is able to move upward - I wish you were right - but sadly I know you aren’t. The fact is that not everyone has the same skills and / or opportunities - and the advice of others, no matter how well meaning, or arrogant it may be, will do little to change that fact.

 

[4elise]

Once again, they are silent on how it is paid for. If we were to drill off shore and generate revenue with out discriminatory taxes, then we could give free health care. The other option is to use legislation (or remove legislation) to reduce the cost of health care.

There are many options on the table that will improve the health care situation for all with out discriminatory taxes but it seems like those options get dismissed in favor of the discriminatory taxes. One can only surmise that health care may not be the goal but just an excuse to pass those discriminatory taxes. After all look at this thread and you will see the vile hatred toward those who would be the prime victims of such taxes.

As for the difference between the idle and the truly needy, I do not go out of my way to judge them (like some here are very quick to judge the productive). The only time I feel any inclination to make any evaluation is when they want my money (or money of those I am defending) If two beggers approach me on the street asking for money and I have a $20dollar bill, do I not have the right to judge who is the more needy? If one of those two tries to pick my pocket instead of asking for that money, don’t I have the right to deny them? If you do not wish for me to make such a judgement don’t try to take the money.

If someone keeps comming to me for money and I see that they are able bodied but choose to live a life of sin exploiting the charity of others, don’t I have an obligation to inform them of their sin?

You may have read “vile hatred toward those who would be the prime victims of such taxes” - (Really - victims?)

I’ve seen anger at those who are unwilling acknowledge that there are many who are the real victims of a health care payment system that is based on how much money insurance companies can make for their shareholders by excluding the people who need it the most, pricing them out of the market and refusing to cover them when they need it most.

I pray that you never have to learn this lesson first hand -

 

[cynic]

The point is that nearly everyone is able to move upward and get to the middle class and get insurance. Those who do not move up need to start reevaluating themselves and humbley accept that they may have a role in their plight and then accept the advice of others.

This is crazy, who is going to do the lower paying work then, and how should they get insurance while doing it?

You’ve do nothing but re-inforce the perception of libertarians as either spoilt adolescents or ruthless entreprenuers.