Change of heart on socialized medicine

[4elise]

Yes I did:

If the taxes are being used to the bennefit of society as a whole and in accordance with the law of the land then it is not stealing. Our constitution does not authorize wealth redistribution schemes. Further these funds are not helping society as a whole they are going to a group of people that do not represent the country as a whole. Also Jesus did not pass judgement on whether the taxes were good or bad or whether they were stealing or not. He simply said don’t bother with the civil structure. Keep in mind this could have been the perfect forum for him to endorse the role of government in society but he did not. Add to that several previous Biblical references to oppressive governements and slavery.

Irrelevant since he did not endorse or deny the value of taxes. In a way it is like you are driving in traffic and someone is trying to cut you off. It is sometimes better to just allow the person to do as they wish than to argue about it. But that is not an endorsement of the reckless drivers act.

The Bible does have something to say, Though shall not covet and thou shall not steal.

Allow me to begin… I am sure others will be happy to share scripture that refutes a selfish interpretation of the Bible!

LUKE 10:27
So he answered and said, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and your neighbor as yourself.’ "

PHILIPPIANS 2:4
Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

ROMANS 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

MATTHEW 25:37,40
.Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Are you familiar with the expression ‘There but for the grace of God go I’? -– I have health insurance through my employer - it is pretty good insurance, I consider it a blessing. With 46 million uninsured I know that circumstances of birth, home life, educational opportunities, are just NOT the same for everyone - therefore - I am all for a move to make universal health care a possibility with an option for some government run program for those who can not get coverage any other way - and I am truly surprised to find such strong resistance on a Catholic web site - my faith calls me to look at each person as my brother / sister and to want the best for them.

 

[4elise]

You seem to be missing the obvious answer. If what you have been trying, isn’t working, try something new.

The obvious answer to you … really a large dose of empathy is in order here!

 

[apromisemade]

The point is that nearly everyone is able to move upward and get to the middle class and get insurance. Those who do not move up need to start reevaluating themselves and humbley accept that they may have a role in their plight and then accept the advice of others.

And what about the multitude of people who have health insurance and pay their premiums the insurance companies just say “No, we’re not going to pay for a surgery that all your physicians say you should have because it will save your life because it’s experimental”

And no, not everyone is capable of getting health insurance. Last year I had to take a couple of semesters off of college for health reasons. I was on my dad’s insurance policy but once September rolled around and I neither had a job (not for lack of trying mind you) nor was enrolled in college they withdrew my coverage because I was 18. I couldn’t afford medications or anything. I couln’t even afford a simple blood test. Ironically enough my dad got laid off just a few months later so I would’ve lost it anyway.

Of course my storie’s nothing compared to a young woman, 20 years old, who got colon cancer while she was in college. She was to sick to get a job but had no choice but to stay in college otherwise she, like me, would have lost her coverage and quickly died for lack of treatment.

Now, pray tell, what advice exactly was she supposed to take from someone that she wasn’t?

 

[pathia]

The point is that nearly everyone is able to move upward and get to the middle class and get insurance. Those who do not move up need to start reevaluating themselves and humbley accept that they may have a role in their plight and then accept the advice of others.

How are we to move up, when one is so sick, they can’t work more than 30hours of work. You can’t ‘advance’ if you’re too sick to put forth the effort. The last time I tried to work a fulltime job, I ended up going unconscious on the job while operating machinery! -_-

 

[4elise]

And what about the multitude of people who have health insurance and pay their premiums the insurance companies just say “No, we’re not going to pay for a surgery that all your physicians say you should have because it will save your life because it’s experimental”

And no, not everyone is capable of getting health insurance. Last year I had to take a couple of semesters off of college for health reasons. I was on my dad’s insurance policy but once September rolled around and I neither had a job (not for lack of trying mind you) nor was enrolled in college they withdrew my coverage because I was 18. I couldn’t afford medications or anything. I couln’t even afford a simple blood test. Ironically enough my dad got laid off just a few months later so I would’ve lost it anyway.

Of course my stories nothing compared to a young woman, 20 years old, who got colon cancer while she was in college. She was to sick to get job but had no choice but to stay in college otherwise she, like me, would have lost her coverage and quickly died for lack of treatment.

Now, pray tell, what advice exactly was she supposed to take from someone that she wasn’t?

***Why pull yourselves up by the bootstraps, right? *** :doh2:

It is just SO arrogant to propose that EVERYONE has the same opportunities, abilities, circumstances, but this is what we hear, and the same from those who are ‘got theirs’ ---- I feel sorry for them because they are so lacking in empathy that their lives must be lonely - but being so self centered they may never notice.

 

[4elise]

How are we to move up, when one is so sick, they can’t work more than 30hours of work. You can’t ‘advance’ if you’re too sick to put forth the effort. The last time I tried to work a fulltime job, I ended up going unconscious on the job while operating machinery! -_-

Exactly… your circumstances have made ‘advancement’ impossible - why can’t some people recognize that you and millions of others are in this circumstance?
Praying for you pathia!

 

[royal_archer]

You may have read “vile hatred toward those who would be the prime victims of such taxes” - (Really - victims?) -

In a way you are right the productive could just go Galt and stop producing but most are not driven by proffit they are driven by a sense of accomplishment and a desire to do good things in the world. But many are just compulsive workaholics and working is just part of their inwired survival instict… But using the they choose to work line of thinking is like saying the slaves did it to them selves because they could have just refused to work. The slaves didn’t because survival instincts also kicked in and prevented them from going Galt.

Do you really want the productive to sart emmulating the unproductive instead of the unproductive emulating the productive?

I’ve seen anger at those who are unwilling acknowledge that there are many who are the real victims of a health care payment system that is based on how much money insurance companies can make for their shareholders by excluding the people who need it the most, pricing them out of the market and refusing to cover them when they need it most.

If two people agree to trade services and another person can not afford to engage in that trade, it does not make the trade unfair, nor is it excluding them. No one is stopping you or others from engaging in the health care market or forming a health care company that offers lower prices (actually the governent is sort of doing that by setting mandatory minimums but that is a whole -nother thread). The more productive are not forcing themselves on the less productive. It is the less productive who are trying to force themselves on the more productive.

I pray that you never have to learn this lesson first hand -

Actually I have been there first hand. I had a sick wife and new born with special medical needs and got laid off with one week severance and one week of vacation and a new house payment and no savings. I had to pay my own insurance for nearly a year and a half working a temporary job. Despite all the bad things said about the insurance companies, they allowed me to continue my coverage as long as I kept the payments up.

 

[royal_archer]

I disagree with your position that ‘nearly everyone’ is able to move upward - I wish you were right - but sadly I know you aren’t. The fact is that not everyone has the same skills and / or opportunities - and the advice of others, no matter how well meaning, or arrogant it may be, will do little to change that fact.

And what is keeping them from moving up? Is it the politicians who take away their hope of making it on their own and replacing it with the promise of living off the despised, nameless “rich”?

It is sad that you have such little faith in your fellow man.

 

[pathia]

Despite all the bad things said about the insurance companies, they allowed me to continue my coverage as long as I kept the payments up.

You are incredibly incredibly lucky. I’ve experienced recession twice in my life already, once before I was even of the age of 18. They’ve treated me like garbage since the day I was born. My dad had to send lawyers after the insurance company, because I had a mixed gender at birth, they tried to refuse to pay for ANY of the bills due to this fact.

 

[royal_archer]

This is crazy, who is going to do the lower paying work then, and how should they get insurance while doing it?

You’ve do nothing but re-inforce the perception of libertarians as either spoilt adolescents or ruthless entreprenuers.

There is a multi dimmensional answer.

1. There are many people who are not the primary bread winners who could do this work, students, retirees, recent grads, etc.
2. Many of those jobs can be automated.
3. Many of those jobs are service industry which is representative of bad macro ecconomic planning. Bringing industry back to America will replace those jobs with better paying jobs.
4. Better trained people will reduce the number of individuals willing to take those entry level jobs and the reduced availability of qualified labor will result in an increase in pay.
5. More people working will increase the available money to pay those people in the entry level jobs.

 

[royal_archer]

Allow me to begin… I am sure others will be happy to share scripture that refutes a selfish interpretation of the Bible!

LUKE 10:27
So he answered and said, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and your neighbor as yourself.’ "

PHILIPPIANS 2:4
Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

ROMANS 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

MATTHEW 25:37,40
.Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Are you familiar with the expression ‘There but for the grace of God go I’? -– I have health insurance through my employer - it is pretty good insurance, I consider it a blessing. With 46 million uninsured I know that circumstances of birth, home life, educational opportunities, are just NOT the same for everyone - therefore - I am all for a move to make universal health care a possibility with an option for some government run program for those who can not get coverage any other way - and I am truly surprised to find such strong resistance on a Catholic web site - my faith calls me to look at each person as my brother / sister and to want the best for them.

This response shows that you do not undersand my possition. All of these are areas of personal responsibility. I have a duty to help my neighbor but this is not license to go and take money from another in order to provide that assistance. I have a duty to help and a personal obligation to God. That is an obligation I accept voluntarily, not through force of government or even the force of God. It is something I give freely out of love. If you cometo my door with a cut I will bandage the wound. I could even stitch it if you are willing to forgo anesthetics. However, if the wound were more serious, I don’t have a right to hold a gun to my doctors head and force him to treat you. It is specifically this use of force or the threat of force that is so offensive, not the acts of kindness or charity.

 

[royal_archer]

The obvious answer to you … really a large dose of empathy is in order here!

Why are you not showing empathy to those who disagree with you?

 

[royal_archer]

And what about the multitude of people who have health insurance and pay their premiums the insurance companies just say “No, we’re not going to pay for a surgery that all your physicians say you should have because it will save your life because it’s experimental”

And no, not everyone is capable of getting health insurance. Last year I had to take a couple of semesters off of college for health reasons. I was on my dad’s insurance policy but once September rolled around and I neither had a job (not for lack of trying mind you) nor was enrolled in college they withdrew my coverage because I was 18. I couldn’t afford medications or anything. I couln’t even afford a simple blood test. Ironically enough my dad got laid off just a few months later so I would’ve lost it anyway.

Of course my storie’s nothing compared to a young woman, 20 years old, who got colon cancer while she was in college. She was to sick to get a job but had no choice but to stay in college otherwise she, like me, would have lost her coverage and quickly died for lack of treatment.

Now, pray tell, what advice exactly was she supposed to take from someone that she wasn’t?

On these boards there is a tendancy to drag out the unusual annecdotal case and portray it as the norm. Outside of here, in real life I find that the overwhelming majority are not representative of these annecdotal cases.

As for experimental surgeries, That is something in the contract with the insurance company, They should be forced to honor their contract. Like I have said a zillion times companies should be obligated to continue coverage as long as the customer keeps paying.

 

[4elise]

In a way you are right the productive could just go Galt and stop producing but most are not driven by proffit they are driven by a sense of accomplishment and a desire to do good things in the world. But many are just compulsive workaholics and working is just part of their inwired survival instict… But using the they choose to work line of thinking is like saying the slaves did it to them selves because they could have just refused to work. The slaves didn’t because survival instincts also kicked in and prevented them from going Galt.

Do you really want the productive to sart emmulating the unproductive instead of the unproductive emulating the productive?

 

[royal_archer]

How are we to move up, when one is so sick, they can’t work more than 30hours of work. You can’t ‘advance’ if you’re too sick to put forth the effort. The last time I tried to work a fulltime job, I ended up going unconscious on the job while operating machinery! -_-

As I said there is plenty of charity out there, it is just being consumed by those who don’t need it.

 

[pathia]

As I said there is plenty of charity out there, it is just being consumed by those who don’t need it.

That’s never going to change. People will work hard, to not have to work, ironically. You cannot weed those people out without tossing actual needy individuals out at the same time.

Your only answer is ‘well if the world worked completely differently, you’d be ok’. Well if the world worked completely differently, then I wouldn’t have been born with the wreck of a body I have.

 

[4elise]

On these boards there is a tendancy to drag out the unusual annecdotal case and portray it as the norm. Outside of here, in real life I find that the overwhelming majority are not representative of these annecdotal cases.

As for experimental surgeries, That is something in the contract with the insurance company, They should be forced to honor their contract. Like I have said a zillion times companies should be obligated to continue coverage as long as the customer keeps paying.

Well good for you.
46.3 million are uninsured news.aol.com/article/number-o…surance/664816

nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

Even if employees are offered coverage on the job, they can’t always afford their portion of the premium. Health insurance premiums have increased 131 percent for employers since 1999 and employee spending for health insurance coverage (employee’s share of family coverage) has increased 128 percent between 1999 and 2008.7

Studies estimate that the number of excess deaths among uninsured adults age 25-64 is in the range of 22,000 a year. This mortality figure is more than the number of deaths from diabetes (17,500) within the same age group.8

If we are pro life - we are pro health care / health coverage reform -
Per the USCCB

On behalf of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), we write to outline the bishops’ policy priorities and urge you to shape and adopt genuine health care reform which protects the life and dignity of all. At their core, health care choices are not just political, technical, or economic, but also moral. This legislation is about life and death, who can take their children to the doctor and who cannot, who can afford decent health care coverage and who are left to fend for themselves. Health care reform especially needs to protect those at the beginning of life and at its end, the most vulnerable and the voiceless.

I am unsubscribing from this thread

 

[royal_archer]

You are incredibly incredibly lucky. I’ve experienced recession twice in my life already, once before I was even of the age of 18. They’ve treated me like garbage since the day I was born. My dad had to send lawyers after the insurance company, because I had a mixed gender at birth, they tried to refuse to pay for ANY of the bills due to this fact.

We are all incredibly lucky. Immagine had we been at a tavern discussing this 20 years ago when no one had access to the equivalent of this health care at any price?

 

[pathia]

We are all incredibly lucky. Immagine had we been at a tavern discussing this 20 years ago when no one had access to the equivalent of this health care at any price?

20? I’m assuming you mean 200. I could have died at birth, I wouldn’t have had any conversations. However, barring that, I wouldn’t have been mutilated at birth, thus the major culprit for my chronic health issues wouldn’t have ever happened.

 

[royal_archer]

Yikes - the unproductive? Not those who can’t find jobs? Those whose employers do not provide insurance? Those who can not afford the insurance their employers offer… oh wait - that is who I am talking about… apparently you have a different name for them.

They can do what the rest of us do, find better jobs.

You were able to find a temporary job.
If you hadn’t what then?
You had the money to continue to pay for your insurance
If you had not the money, what then?
Your insurance company allowed you to continue your coverage
If your company had not, what then?

I would have found a different job.
I would have figured out a way to get a job.
I would have sued the insurance company or gotten a better job.
If all else failed I would have fallen back on fammily.
If that failed, I would have begged.
If that failed, I would have been with out insurance.
But I doubt I would have gotten to the point of robbery.

Well you would have been in the circumstances of the other 46 million Americans with no insurance.

There are not 46 million “Americans” with out insurance. 10 million are illegal ailiens, about 3 million are legal aliens, and a million or two are self insured and many choose not to get insurance for other reasons.

If you get those who are able to work working, you will have more resources available to those who are truly needy.