Change of heart on socialized medicine

[rtconstant]

157 posts so far and still no one has given me a compelling reason to say that the ends justify the means. when I opened the thread I didn’t believe they did but I was willing to be open minded and put it up for discussion.

Because you started with an absurd assertion. In 157 posts you have yet to demonstrate how that using taxes for the benefit of the country’s citizens is in anyway bad.

 

[royal_archer]

While the constitution allows for the ability to own a weapon it is not a “human right”. It is simply one that Americans can enjoy should they chose.

And yet millions of people all people in many different nations do it everyday, and have a higher standard of living than we do. This bogey man would have a lot more substance if there were literal flesh and blood examples in Europe and Asia who show us its not only possible, But practical. It also hurts when our current economic models are getting weaker every day.

The ecconomic model is gettig weaker because a third of Maericans are on government assistance and only a very small portion are contributing a fair share to the tax base. adding more to the burden of society will not help the situation. Some of those foriegn nations are surviving through direct and indirect foriegn aid provided by the US

 

[aspawloski4th]

157 posts so far and still no one has given me a compelling reason to say that the ends justify the means. when I opened the thread I didn’t believe they did but I was willing to be open minded and put it up for discussion.

How was I taught the ends justify the means? Early on in my childhood when dad gave me a job to do, if I stalled for trying to avoid a way that would take too long or because I was trying to make the job easier, I got a foot to the fanny rather harshly and quickly and was told Iwas to get the job done, not done by a certain method. There were many times my home work suffered because if it. I learned not to think things out overly much and just get to going because severe punishment would be fourth coming. While I am not to that extreme I have noticed our society waists time and energy over worring how to solve a problem at hand. Thus we get nowhere. I’m a results type person. When I lift a finger to do anything there had better be success twords the goal period. When I lift a finger to do something I’m not doing it for the sake of doing it, i’m doing it with multiple ulterior motives. In the case of Pathia I compare it to the stop at an accedent law. Leaving the scene of an accedent is illegal for several reasons one of which is to proect life. Leaving the scene of an accedent is illegal even if you are not at fault. Our society may not be at fault for Pathia’s health problems, but is no less guilty that the woman that hit me in a hit and run accedent back in 2003. In the bill of rights , the right to life is posted first for a reason. Iv’e learned the hard way in my life that when the end doe’s not justify the mean, the end is never met, and it works that way everytime.

 

[royal_archer]

Then why has it not destroyed the private medical industry in Japan or Switzerland? What’s the buzz word? “Work smarter.” The private companies adapt and move forward, or they fail. But then isn’t that what they deserve? I mean after all its not the problem of anyone else that they could not adapt like other companies. No one owes them success. That’s how it works right? That’s the environment your after right?

Free and fair competition, not taxing companies to subsidize their competition.

 

[aspawloski4th]

"Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Where does it say life?

But playing your game, since Assembly comes before the second ammendment does the government have to pay my expenses to attend a protest?

Right to life, liberty and the persuit of happienes.

 

[royal_archer]

Because you started with an absurd assertion. In 157 posts you have yet to demonstrate how that using taxes for the benefit of the country’s citizens is in anyway bad.

You don’t think stealing is bad?

 

[rtconstant]

The ecconomic model is gettig weaker because a third of Maericans are on government assistance and only a very small portion are contributing a fair share to the tax base. adding more to the burden of society will not help the situation. Some of those foriegn nations are surviving through direct and indirect foriegn aid provided by the US

Economic model is getting weaker because greed is self destructive. Companies have sold their souls for Chinese, and Indian slaves. Companies are no longer loyal to their employees to their employees are no longer loyal to them. The aristocracy of the US has led us here not her workers. To assert that the poorest third of the Americans are actually the ones, directing economic policy is absurd.

 

[royal_archer]

Right to life, liberty and the persuit of happienes.

That is not an ammendment or a hierarchy or a sequential tiering. Nor does it say that I have to provide anyone with life, only that I (and the government) can not take it.

 

[royal_archer]

Economic model is getting weaker because greed is self destructive. Companies have sold their souls for Chinese, and Indian slaves. Companies are no longer loyal to their employees to their employees are no longer loyal to them. The aristocracy of the US has led us here not her workers. To assert that the poorest third of the Americans are actually the ones, directing economic policy is absurd.

I did not say they are directing policy nor did I say they were the poorest. Although the election of Obama does show that the government dependents do seem to be influencing policy.

 

[rtconstant]

You don’t think stealing is bad?

If you qualify all taxes as bad, then I guess you can make that argument. If that is your opinion then you need to buy and Earth Ship, start growing your food and drop off the grid. Then you’ll be living the life you consider moral. The rest of us who understand that being part of society requires doing our part, will stay and happily pay for roads, schools, military and healthcare that elevates our citizens.

 

[rtconstant]

I did not say they are directing policy nor did I say they were the poorest. Although the election of Obama does show that the government dependents do seem to be influencing policy.

If we’re just making up facts, then I’ll say that the election of Obama does show GW and GOP congressional members did a fine job of burning their party’s credit with the American people.

 

[royal_archer]

If you qualify all taxes as bad, then I guess you can make that argument. If that is your opinion then you need to buy and Earth Ship, start growing your food and drop off the grid. Then you’ll be living the life you consider moral. The rest of us who understand that being part of society requires doing our part, will stay and happily pay for roads, schools, military and healthcare that elevates our citizens.

Some of those are authorized by the constitution and paid for by the benneficiaries. Those are proper. Redistribution of wealth in order for politicians to gain political power is wrong.

 

[Shoshana]

How can someone say that money does not matter and then be so intent on taking it?

MY taxes pay not only for me but also for my neighbor who lost his job a dozen times because the plants are shutting down left and right.

I know that MY taxes insures me good medical help as well everybody else. This is the kind of tax I believe in…

You know, if you have two cloaks, give one to your brother in need. We are all needy at some point in our lives. This kind of tax follows right into the catholic thinking…so there…

 

[Shoshana]

Why complain about taxes for medical help when a lot of our taxes go to STUPID things like a zillion trips for our representatives in politics. For their insufferable banquets and ladies in waiting, etc etc etc

 

[royal_archer]

MY taxes pay not only for me but also for my neighbor who lost his job a dozen times because the plants are shutting down left and right.

I know that MY taxes insures me good medical help as well everybody else. This is the kind of tax I believe in…

You know, if you have two cloaks, give one to your brother in need. We are all needy at some point in our lives. This kind of tax follows right into the catholic thinking…so there…

Would he have lost his job had the ecconomy not been so bad? Also I have no problem with unemployment insurance as long as one pays in and receives as due based on his contributions.

As for Catholic Thinking:

1. Thessalonians
2. 11 to aspire to live quietly, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we charged you; 12 so that you may command the respect of outsiders, and be dependent on nobody.

5.14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers

1. Thessalonians
2. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living. 13 Brethren, do not be weary in well-doing.
   14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Just to ally misinterpretations, I am not against a personal duty to help those in need. I am against government machine that hobbles people to make them dependent so they can be used as leverage to exploit the productive.

 

[royal_archer]

Why complain about taxes for medical help when a lot of our taxes go to STUPID things like a zillion trips for our representatives in politics. For their insufferable banquets and ladies in waiting, etc etc etc

If you are expecting me to disagree that those are wrong, you will be sadly mistaken. Those are miss uses of my time and talent.

However, two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Shoshana]

Would he have lost his job had the ecconomy not been so bad? Also I have no problem with unemployment insurance as long as one pays in and receives as due based on his contributions.

As for Catholic Thinking:

1. Thessalonians
2. 11 to aspire to live quietly, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we charged you; 12 so that you may command the respect of outsiders, and be dependent on nobody.

5.14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers

1. Thessalonians
2. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living. 13 Brethren, do not be weary in well-doing.
   14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Just to ally misinterpretations, I am not against a personal duty to help those in need. I am against government machine that hobbles people to make them dependent so they can be used as leverage to exploit the productive.

So, are you going to punish the majority for the few who take advantage of anything? There will always be those who abuse the system, anywhere and anytime. There are generations on welfare. BUT, now the welfare is so scant that it is difficult to even live off it.

Our politicians abuse the system BIG TIME, take YOUR money to pay for their private medical bills. And really, how much work is entailed? Really? I scorn these much more than those who abuse the system because they know no better.

In the meantime, I would rather see my taxes pay for the majority of people so they can get the help they need…even at the expense of the few.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Would he have lost his job had the ecconomy not been so bad? Also I have no problem with unemployment insurance as long as one pays in and receives as due based on his contributions.

As for Catholic Thinking:

1. Thessalonians
2. 11 to aspire to live quietly, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we charged you; 12 so that you may command the respect of outsiders, and be dependent on nobody.

5.14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers

1. Thessalonians
2. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living. 13 Brethren, do not be weary in well-doing.
   14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Just to ally misinterpretations, I am not against a personal duty to help those in need. I am against government machine that hobbles people to make them dependent so they can be used as leverage to exploit the productive.

Not a true comparison. Paul is talking about those who CHOOSE to be idle, where the poster you are replying to is talking about someone forced into indleness.There is no comparison.

 

[royal_archer]

MY taxes pay not only for me but also for my neighbor who lost his job a dozen times because the plants are shutting down left and right.

I know that MY taxes insures me good medical help as well everybody else. This is the kind of tax I believe in…

You know, if you have two cloaks, give one to your brother in need. We are all needy at some point in our lives. This kind of tax follows right into the catholic thinking…so there…

If everyone were endevoring to pull their own weight and we only dealt with the true exceptions My opinion would likely be different. We would also be able to address all of these needs by charity and like with roads and national parks the ratio of contribution to bennefit would be closer to inconsequential. Unfortunatley that is not the case and my money will better serve society as a whole if I give it to the truly needy and not the politicians.

 

[royal_archer]

So, are you going to punish the majority for the few who take advantage of anything? There will always be those who abuse the system, anywhere and anytime. There are generations on welfare. BUT, now the welfare is so scant that it is difficult to even live off it.

Our politicians abuse the system BIG TIME, take YOUR money to pay for their private medical bills. And really, how much work is entailed? Really? I scorn these much more than those who abuse the system because they know no better.

In the meantime, I would rather see my taxes pay for the majority of people so they can get the help they need…even at the expense of the few.

to punnish them implies that I am taking away something that is rightfully theirs. The only ones being punnished are those who are working.

A third of the population is on public assistance. It is clear to me that the vast majority of them are taking advantage of the system.

Once again I am not going to defend abuses by politicians. However after giving them as an example of corruption, why do you feel they are capable of handling health care in an honnest manner?

Why give away billions to the idle at the expense of teh few truly needy I can help directly?