Change of heart on socialized medicine

[royal_archer]

No, it was not. The high unemployment rate was caused, and remains a problem, due to the collapse of our economy, which is due in large part to the unregulated mortgage swapping and resultant crisis that went on during the Bush administration in the early 2000’s.

Weren’t freddie Mac and Fannie mae government sponsored entities? Didn’t the government over regulate the market to prevent mortgage companies from discriminating against those who could not pay? Isn’t the governmtn now encouraging banks to make risky loans with the increased likely hood that the governmetn will provide billions in bail outs to banks that fail?

Well, the 401Ks tanked due to the economy crashing, as I mentioned in my other paragraph. So you can’t have one without the other. They went hand-in-hand.

My 401 K is at a record high (partly becasue I kept putting money in) but still I have had many dollars taken out of my paycheck to provide for a “rainy day” and we should give people uninhibited access to that money.

I LOVE this statement of yours. Believe it or not many people make a living - somehow - on minimum wage jobs. There simply cannot be a society where someone- statistically - does not do these jobs. AND most of those people do not have health insurance. So as a result, they do not go to a doctor until their condition worsens to the point that it takes a lot of money - your money - to treat them in the ER.

If they can not get health insurance then they are not making a living. Considering how many people are not the primary bread winner in the family, spouses, teenage children, retirees, there are a lot of people who can afford to work at lesser wages.

By having a public option, and available basic health care for all, we could each save money down the road because these people who are not getting checkups would be doing so, and conditions could be treated before they got chronic. We don’t live in a vacuum- having more healthy citizens benefits us all.

Having more working citizens would bennefit us all as well. Do you not see that getting all of these people productive jobs would help everyone?

It seems that you can’t stand the idea of someone getting health care who did not earn the money to pay for health insurance. Well, I can’t stand the idea of people getting sick and suffering because they do not have the money for health insurance, when meanwhile my country per capita spends more on health care than any other country in the world. And I have to know that I’m spending more, and getting less- when other countries spend less and cover everybody!

There are ways of driving down health care costs with out raising taxes but no one seems to want to talk about them.

 

[royal_archer]

That is certainly one thing I do not understand! How can a country spend so much on one person in health care, the highest indeed, and there are so many who do not have care??? Am I missing something?

Consider the number of people who come to this country for health care that is not available in countries with socialized medicine. They aren’t coming over here for bandaids and stitches. They are coming over for the higher end care.

Consider the impact of costs where most pay inflated costs to cover the indigent.

Consider the law suits that artificially raise the cost.

Consider that Americans are paying for research for new drugs and procedures that other countries take advantage of but do not contribute.

Consider the advanced medical procedures that are available here that are not available in other countries at any cost.

Consider that many have no financial incentive to be conservative with how they seek medical care. (eg going to the doctor for a normal cold or flu)

 

[royal_archer]

I don’t own a car, a cellphone. I’m in the cheapest apartment that I can bus to work from. The internet is from a neighbor’s wireless. The laptop is a work computer. My daily food consists of ramen, PB&J or anything on drastic closeout sales. I’m slowly losing weight, I was already underweight to begin with mind. My osteoporosis is developing again, because I struggle to afford enough drugs/food to keep it at bay.

Yet despite that my debt continues to grow, every month.

And millions of people who could work are taking the charity that should be helping you out.

 

[royal_archer]

I had the same reaction — I’ll read on.

The whole point of the start of the thread was to discuss the things that this legislation opens the door to that most liberals would agree are bad.

 

[royal_archer]

Anyone I know who has medicare is pretty happy with this GOVERNMENT RUN program, and in fact is VERY upset at any discussion about changing this… I find the opposition to the option of a government run program for those who can not afford other options very confusing -

“Not with my taxes”… yet our taxes, and insurance premiums pay for the expensive ER visits for those with no insurance —

Do some oppose this option ONLY because of who is proposing it?

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[royal_archer]

Your employer let you pick your insurance?

Mine does They have several options and I get to choose my employer. My good insurance was a determining factor in staying with this company when I had the option to go to a competitor who offered more money.

Insurance companies are much more likely to drop the ill, not cover people with pre-existing conditions… fight you on payments when you need it the most… Yup - the Insurance companies sure have it right — however the biggest government run program - MEDICARE does neither. Hum… which one has it right?

Medicare does not have to manage a real budget. There is no threat of it going out of buisness when it goes bankrupt. They just raise taxes.

 

[royal_archer]

Just think of the money that will go to actual healthcare rather than a few greedy millionaires who did no work to earn it.

Think of all the money that will go to politicians and lobbyist who are still greedy millionaires who do no work to earn it.

 

[Shoshana]

Consider the number of people who come to this country for health care that is not available in countries with socialized medicine. They aren’t coming over here for bandaids and stitches. They are coming over for the higher end care.

That may be possible BUT a lot go because they have the funds to get something done more quickly than they do here. On the whole, it is the well-added patients that turn to you. The procedure may be able to get done here, but they do not want to wait.

Consider the impact of costs where most pay inflated costs to cover the indigent.

Consider the law suits that artificially raise the cost.

Everyone knows that suing is definitely an american thing. My goodness, when one sues McDonald’s because the coffee spilt in her lap while driving and WINS…there is something wrong with this picture. Suing is second nature to the country.

Consider that Americans are paying for research for new drugs and procedures that other countries take advantage of but do not contribute.

Well, you will have to pove that statement. All I know also is our drugs are a lot cheaper than in the US. These pharmaceutical companies are really big monsters that are taking advantage of the sick patient…

Consider the advanced medical procedures that are available here that are not available in other countries at any cost.

And prove that one to me. And at what price?

Consider that many have no financial incentive to be conservative with how they seek medical care. (eg going to the doctor for a normal cold or flu)

That should be everyone’s concern…

 

[royal_archer]

To be very honest with you sir. It sickens me very much to think that there are other Catholics with your attitude. Thats why for the most part I just go Mass to meet my obligation, then go home to my life.

Once again, you are not helping, only demanding that others help.

 

[royal_archer]

Actually, to be honest I read the post to which you were responding too quickly and misread what it was saying.

As for whether Arwen’s ideas reflect "Calvinist’ ideas, it depends on which Calvinist ideas. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m skeptical of the “Weberian” thesis that attributes to Calvinism the notion that wealth is generally a blessing from God and the poor usually deserve to be so. But certainly Calvinism can lead to callousness on the grounds that “ungodly” people are unworthy of compassion. It all depends on which version of Calvinism you go with. The “theonomist” writer Gary North (anathema sit) does use Calvinism to argue for libertarian capitalism, arguing that the “godly” shouldn’t have to pay to supply the needs of the “ungodly.” But other Calvinists of my acquaintance would say that this is a total perversion of the historic Reformed position.

I would actually say that attributing such ideas to evangelicalism as a whole is even less fair. 19th-century evangelicalism was very much tied to social reform and taking care of the poor, even if this was sometimes patronizing and moralistic. But certainly the individualism of modern evangelicalism has done immense damage.

Edwin

Thank you for enlightening us to your ignorance of our possition. Those like me are not against charity and likely give more in charity than some who posting here in support of higher taxes for health care. You seem to beleive that we are against giving to the poor and those in need. That is not the case. We support works of charity and kindness. We also put in many hours of volunteer work. The only place we disagree is with the use of force. We do not believe that force should be used to subvert someones ability to offer charity. This is backed by the Bible and Catholic teaching.

 

[cynic]

Consider that Americans are paying for research for new drugs and procedures that other countries take advantage of but do not contribute.

That cost is factored into the cost of the drug. Other coutries are not being supplied with free drugs from the U.S.

 

[royal_archer]

That cost is factored into the cost of the drug. Other coutries are not being supplied with free drugs from the U.S.

At a town hall a senator said that Canada negotiates with drug manufacturers giving them two options 1. Sell the drug at x percent over the cost to manufacture the drugs or 2. they will just manufacture the drugs themselves. Most pharmacutical companies opt for option 1. Since they have no legal recourse for pattent infringement outside the US.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Once again, you are not helping, only demanding that others help.

My life actually means people who are compatable with me. Part of the deal is I live in an area where people live in the distant past. They are waiting for Walter Cronkite to comeback, and think GM will comeback. I live in an area that is conformest to an extreme. Indeviduality is frowned upon. Ive been given the raspberries for not growing a ghotee. I don’t conform and i do my own thing. My opinions are miy own and I don’t follow the herd mentallity which seems popular to Catholics as of late. For the roecord I invite you to look at my past posts on CAF, they care both liberal and conservative, because I could care less about the liberal vs conservative war going on. If i’m going to be in constant conflict somewhere, I’m eventually going to avoid that place. But I’m not going to change anything just to make someone like me.

 

[aspawloski4th]

At a town hall a senator said that Canada negotiates with drug manufacturers giving them two options 1. Sell the drug at x percent over the cost to manufacture the drugs or 2. they will just manufacture the drugs themselves. Most pharmacutical companies opt for option 1. Since they have no legal recourse for pattent infringement outside the US.

Just how Id do it. remember in the developement of new drugs that SALARIED people are working to develop them. So whether or not that drug is developed those scientists are they their usual monday to friday 8 to 5. This thing about cost to develop a drug being huge is b.s.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Thank you for enlightening us to your ignorance of our possition. Those like me are not against charity and likely give more in charity than some who posting here in support of higher taxes for health care. You seem to beleive that we are against giving to the poor and those in need. That is not the case. We support works of charity and kindness. We also put in many hours of volunteer work. The only place we disagree is with the use of force. We do not believe that force should be used to subvert someones ability to offer charity. This is backed by the Bible and Catholic teaching.

While volunteer work is amirable, it doesnt cover everyone who needs, and it takes care those who should of been helped earier.

 

[aspawloski4th]

a soul.

Actually the animal has a soul according to the church too, albeit a material soul. But livng like that kills the soul, literally there is a difference, effectively there is no difference.

 

[pathia]

And millions of people who could work are taking the charity that should be helping you out.

What charity? I’m middle class, it doesn’t matter, I make over the income requirements.

 

[royal_archer]

My life actually means people who are compatable with me. Part of the deal is I live in an area where people live in the distant past. They are waiting for Walter Cronkite to comeback, and think GM will comeback. I live in an area that is conformest to an extreme. Indeviduality is frowned upon. Ive been given the raspberries for not growing a ghotee. I don’t conform and i do my own thing. My opinions are miy own and I don’t follow the herd mentallity which seems popular to Catholics as of late. For the roecord I invite you to look at my past posts on CAF, they care both liberal and conservative, because I could care less about the liberal vs conservative war going on. If i’m going to be in constant conflict somewhere, I’m eventually going to avoid that place. But I’m not going to change anything just to make someone like me.

And what are you doing to help your fellow man?

 

[royal_archer]

Actually the animal has a soul according to the church too, albeit a material soul. But livng like that kills the soul, literally there is a difference, effectively there is no difference.

Really?? References??

I’ve peen poor, homless, sick, and have even had times when I resounded my self to the fact I was going to die. but never considered myself no better than an animal. Self esteem issues such as this can not be blamed on factors from the outside.

 

[royal_archer]

What charity? I’m middle class, it doesn’t matter, I make over the income requirements.

Did you ever consider that the financial thresholds were put in place because there was so much abuse?