Change of heart on socialized medicine

[mpi]

I trust the government more than the charity I’ve witnessed in my time on the streets.

Have you looked at why you were on the streets? Have you ever thought that it was the government’s action that led you to be on the streets?

The Government welfare state , which is condemned by the Vatican, leads to the decline of the family, which may have led to your homelessness. Government-imposed minimum wage standards increase unemployment levels among the young and unskilled - did that apply to your situation?

So you have a Government creating homelessness and then being there to take credit for helping the homeless. Pretty self-serving.

 

[aspawloski4th]

He is needed, therefore it is fair. Do you really think that managers should be paid less than normal workers? Do you think that someone who sits at a desk should be paid less because they aren’t doing manual labor? Even if their jobs requires more education and more stress? Fairness of pay is based on supply and demand. If there are fewer people who can and will work it, they should be paid more. If the worker is unskilled with no degree, then they aren’t worth much. That’s fair.
And you still haven’t addressed taking advantage of workers. Not all the workers who will be affected are desk workers. It will affect carpenters, like my stepdad. It will affect me, as a physical therapist. It will affect my boyfriend who will be an electrician. Do those jobs meet your ridiculous standard to be an “honest” job? You are just resentful, not at all reasonable about this “earning” thing.

its a management vs non management. Most managers in most business got their job through brownnosing or family connection, or being the right ethnicity. Iv’e been squeezed out of 2 jobs for being the wrong religion, and one of those two jobs I have many people who will vouch for me on that. You know litte about the real business world dear. Iv’e learned what Iv’e learned first hand ,everything right in front of my eyes. As far as health care everyone will be put on the same plane as it should be. I’m not asking that everyone should be able to afford a cottage and a boat out on the lake, I’m talking that everyone doesn’t deverve to loose the roof oever their hear head just because they were unfortunate to get a cancer or ALS or whatever. Please don’t tell me anything about earning! I worked with multiple kidneystones pass through me, Iv’e worked through pneumonia, Iv’e mowed the lawn and chopped wood on the hottest day in my hometown in my lifetime. Don’t you even think of telling me about work and earning, you are young and have lots to learn still.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Have you looked at why you were on the streets? Have you ever thought that it was the government’s action that led you to be on the streets?

The Government welfare state , which is condemned by the Vatican, leads to the decline of the family, which may have led to your homelessness. Government-imposed minimum wage standards increase unemployment levels among the young and unskilled - did that apply to your situation?

So you have a Government creating homelessness and then being there to take credit for helping the homeless. Pretty self-serving.

There is a point where where a wage can be so low that that the person earning that wage is a drag on society. You can either have a minimum wage or tax business that pay low for thier workers needing charity in or to reimkburse the need their low wages created.

 

[TEPO]

There’s no “admitting” going on. I’m suspicious of government too. But I don’t think that human beings are only capable of evil when you call their collective organization a “government” (this was the point made by the two posts following yours).

The two following posts ignored Catholic Social Teaching on size of Government. Catholics are to resist large government.

But since youre not Catholic let me ask you, dont you understand that governments have the authority to forcefully control human activity? This is exactly why we should be careful when giving more authority to it…

Business however does not physically enforce human control… Business can only bite into your wallet. And money is only material. So I’m pretty sure I know who I would rather give the power to. Furthermore I never said government is intrinsically evil, but I do know that governments of the past have always caused war, and destruction. Government and its politics to control have throughout history always been the problem. but I do think that fraternal partnerships can be evil too though, such as the Freemasons, who have their own agenda of control. I am against control that is not from God.

What exactly do you mean by “active response”?

Peaceful of course. :hey_bud:

But you’re leaping from one thing to the other. It’s like saying “if the government establishes a standing army then we should rebel, especially if the standing army starts looting and raping indiscriminately.” You’re going immediately from a situation that might lend itself to abuse to the presumption of such abuse. I agree that the one is to be avoided when possible because of the danger of the other, but only the *actual *abuse would warrant any kind of “active response.”

And my use of an example was deliberate: I think that a standing army is at least as problematic as “full government control” over health care.

No, a standing army is wrong. I agree with you.

A perfect example of why we should not give more authority and money to the government which consists of corrupt politicians with weird agendas revolving around control. I only support a military which defends, and does not conquer !!!

I don’t particularly think you should trust the government. But I don’t see why people worry so much about the government controlling health care when they don’t seem to mind the government controlling weapons of mass destruction.

My problem with conservative language claiming “distrust for government” is that it seems glaringly inconsistent. If you don’t start by criticizing the size of the U.S. military, then you don’t really distrust the government at all.

Now you’ve taken the leap… Weapons of mass destruction is a totally different subject. Are you trying to side-track me…

 

[royal_archer]

How exactly do you think that would happen?

Obama’s insstance that health care insurers cover every possible exotic condition and overly heroic methods that drive costs through the roof. Compounded by a discriminatory system that moves cost from one socioeconomic group to others. Further making payment of those premiums something that my employer can not afford.

 

[royal_archer]

Well, that is a different topic. Life is a fatal condition btw. Let’s stick with the topic of health care and so-called socialized medicine.

Let’s say I find out I am HIV positive (you can be HIV positive and not have AIDS). I just lost my job, my company downsized and laid off 20% of its workforce, including me.

There are treatments that can stave off AIDS in the HIV positive

What should happen to me?

Should I be punished for my lifestyle choices? Tossed on the street? Pointed to the nearest ER for when I’m almost dying?

What if my HIV infection came from a blood transfusion - I was in a car wreck years ago and needed 2 pints of blood. Is it OK to sell me insurance now? Is it moral now?

First you keep paying for your insurace directly.

second I didn’t say it was your personal lifestyle choices that made it prevealent. It is because of a group with an immoral lifestyle that we have the prevalence of this STD.

 

[royal_archer]

Well, I am watching Dr Oz on tv and he is having a free clinic in Houston, Texas, because there is 33% of the people do not have insurance. Why? Up to now, it is because they lost their jobs…no job, no insurance!

a lot of it is the domino effect comming from two angles.
First more people not paying for their insurance causes those costs to be spread over a smaller base of payers whose cost keep rising forcing more to become non contributing, and so on.

Second medical advances are making more options available at higher prices. These improvements are driving up costs and forcing more people under the contributer threshold.

The only way to address the first problem is to start holding more people personally accountable for their own medical costs and those of their dependents. The only way to address the second problem is to accept that absolute coverage of all possible medical conditions is a luxury and not an expectation. We have to accept that some will choose a quality of life over length of life.

 

[royal_archer]

But you’re leaping from one thing to the other. It’s like saying “if the government establishes a standing army then we should rebel, especially if the standing army starts looting and raping indiscriminately.” You’re going immediately from a situation that might lend itself to abuse to the presumption of such abuse. I agree that the one is to be avoided when possible because of the danger of the other, but only the *actual *abuse would warrant any kind of “active response.”

This situation seems related to the all too often burglary rape/murder scenario where it starts off as a burglary and the victims allow themselves to be tied up by the assailants thinking this will end the escalation of the violence. then when they are helpless the victims wind up getting raped or murdered. How is this related? If we as a nation give up our private rights and abilities to get medical care free of government intervention, then we place ourselves at the mercy of the government. With private medical insurance we can make choices for ourselves as to what coverage is needed and what plans support immoral activities. When the government destroys those options we will loose our ability to resist.

And my use of an example was deliberate: I think that a standing army is at least as problematic as “full government control” over health care.

I don’t particularly think you should trust the government. But I don’t see why people worry so much about the government controlling health care when they don’t seem to mind the government controlling weapons of mass destruction.

My problem with conservative language claiming “distrust for government” is that it seems glaringly inconsistent. If you don’t start by criticizing the size of the U.S. military, then you don’t really distrust the government at all.

Edwin

That is why we have the second ammendment.

 

[royal_archer]

I DO have a problem with that. I don’t think we should have bailed them out. I don’t agree with the fact that they are up to the same baloney. I already posted this. Again you choose to ignore everything I say except the things you think make me look like a monster. But I have have a problem with this AND can disagree with socialized health care. I don’t think the government should be stepping in. My position is consistent. Yours is not. You seem to only want the government to step in when it benefits you. You care that people lose their homes because they get cancer, but don’t care if they lose their home because their CEOs mismanaged the company.

well said.

 

[royal_archer]

Your method of justuce is different from mine. Yours is based on stop what you call unjust now. Mine is lets make sure everything is evened out then stop it. Actually I would be more wanting governement to step in for my wife than me by far. Companies like AIG after being bailed out are back up to the same old shinagins again, while cancer patiants loose their fanny. Actually I don’t think governemnt is the ultimate solution, but the current climate it is the far lesser of 2 evils. You talk about consistancy, the real difference is you are an at all cost idealogue, while I’m pragmatic. I realize we have a broken monatry system since the days of FDR taking up of the gold system, so I take the national debt with a grain of saalt realizing all money is created out of nothing and backed by nothing , therefore insiders maipulate it the way they want to keep in power. The Obama adminstration is just stooges for the shadow governement. Insted of letting it rule us lets take advantage of it while its possbile.

It seems like yopu have no concern for the children who would be forced to clean up the financial mess you are proposing.

 

[royal_archer]

Define fair! I don’t think the manager who sits at his desk all day while his workers work their fanny off is earning his money fairly, quite frankly. Thats no more an honest way to make a living than prostitution.

So did you ever think about why people are hired as managers. Maybe because the people are willing to make unpleasant decisions, work long hours with out overtime pay, They studied in school instead to skating by, they got years of extra education, or they were willing to humbly accept the directions of higher management.

While prostetution is immoral, it is an otherwise honest line of work. They provide the agreed to “services” for customers who willingly accept their terms.

 

[royal_archer]

its a management vs non management. Most managers in most business got their job through brownnosing or family connection, or being the right ethnicity. Iv’e been squeezed out of 2 jobs for being the wrong religion, and one of those two jobs I have many people who will vouch for me on that. You know litte about the real business world dear. Iv’e learned what Iv’e learned first hand ,everything right in front of my eyes. As far as health care everyone will be put on the same plane as it should be. I’m not asking that everyone should be able to afford a cottage and a boat out on the lake, I’m talking that everyone doesn’t deverve to loose the roof oever their hear head just because they were unfortunate to get a cancer or ALS or whatever. Please don’t tell me anything about earning! I worked with multiple kidneystones pass through me, Iv’e worked through pneumonia, Iv’e mowed the lawn and chopped wood on the hottest day in my hometown in my lifetime. Don’t you even think of telling me about work and earning, you are young and have lots to learn still.

I’ve been around a while and can tell you that I have been in similar situations. The difference is that I have condidered them minor distractions and have refused to let them stop me. Your comments are reminiscent of those whom I know personally who give up after early set backs and form a false opinion of the world believing that somehow the world is stacked against you because of “name the excuse” and throught that filter see everything as a reinforcement of that false opinion.

Arwen is taking responsiblity for her actions and is on the path to success. If she keeps this attitude she will run into problems of a similar magnitude to what you have. However it appears she will instead view these as lessons and opportunities. God gives us road blocks in our life for a reason, normally because he wants us to take detours. If you accept them in stride you will do fine.

 

[royal_archer]

There is a point where where a wage can be so low that that the person earning that wage is a drag on society. You can either have a minimum wage or tax business that pay low for thier workers needing charity in or to reimkburse the need their low wages created.

You are missing the point. Those government programs are facilitating people working at lower wages which is motivating those people to stay in lesser paying jobs instead of working their way up to a sustaining standard of living.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’ve been around a while and can tell you that I have been in similar situations. The difference is that I have condidered them minor distractions and have refused to let them stop me. Your comments are reminiscent of those whom I know personally who give up after early set backs and form a false opinion of the world believing that somehow the world is stacked against you because of “name the excuse” and throught that filter see everything as a reinforcement of that false opinion.

Arwen is taking responsiblity for her actions and is on the path to success. If she keeps this attitude she will run into problems of a similar magnitude to what you have. However it appears she will instead view these as lessons and opportunities. God gives us road blocks in our life for a reason, normally because he wants us to take detours. If you accept them in stride you will do fine.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’ve been around a while and can tell you that I have been in similar situations. The difference is that I have condidered them minor distractions and have refused to let them stop me. Your comments are reminiscent of those whom I know personally who give up after early set backs and form a false opinion of the world believing that somehow the world is stacked against you because of “name the excuse” and throught that filter see everything as a reinforcement of that false opinion.

Arwen is taking responsiblity for her actions and is on the path to success. If she keeps this attitude she will run into problems of a similar magnitude to what you have. However it appears she will instead view these as lessons and opportunities. God gives us road blocks in our life for a reason, normally because he wants us to take detours. If you accept them in stride you will do fine.

You Speaking in ideal terms,While I’m speaking from personal experience. For me to beleive you i would have to deny nearly everything I have experienced and seen happen to others with my own eys as an illusion. Once Iv’e seen I believe. Bad things happen to good people all the time. I didn’t give up after a few years ,I gaveup of a quarter century.

 

[Arwen037]

its a management vs non management. Most managers in most business got their job through brownnosing or family connection, or being the right ethnicity. Iv’e been squeezed out of 2 jobs for being the wrong religion, and one of those two jobs I have many people who will vouch for me on that. You know litte about the real business world dear. Iv’e learned what Iv’e learned first hand ,everything right in front of my eyes. As far as health care everyone will be put on the same plane as it should be. I’m not asking that everyone should be able to afford a cottage and a boat out on the lake, I’m talking that everyone doesn’t deverve to loose the roof oever their hear head just because they were unfortunate to get a cancer or ALS or whatever. Please don’t tell me anything about earning! I worked with multiple kidneystones pass through me, Iv’e worked through pneumonia, Iv’e mowed the lawn and chopped wood on the hottest day in my hometown in my lifetime. Don’t you even think of telling me about work and earning, you are young and have lots to learn still.

You are being very insulting and patronizing, which has no place in making your point. You say I have much to learn and I’m young, but I’m supposed to support your wife. Really? I’m too young to be able to comment, but old enough to help support your wife?
And none of the managers I know (at least 12 in the past 4 years) got their jobs through a family connection. And if you say it’s ALL through brownnosing (which I don’t buy for one second) you can brownnose too, so if they are smart and use that technique and you don’t, whose fault is that? You can’t blame them for actually doing what they have to to better their lives. And I know managers from many religions and ethnicities. Maybe you’re just not not the right material to be a manager and the other people are. And I feel perfectly capable of telling you about earning. I work hard and get paid for it. And then you try to take the money I worked for. Money you HAVEN’T EARNED. You don’t earn health care by getting sick.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You are being very insulting and patronizing, which has no place in making your point. You say I have much to learn and I’m young, but I’m supposed to support your wife. Really? I’m too young to be able to comment, but old enough to help support your wife?
And none of the managers I know (at least 12 in the past 4 years) got their jobs through a family connection. And if you say it’s ALL through brownnosing (which I don’t buy for one second) you can brownnose too, so if they are smart and use that technique and you don’t, whose fault is that? You can’t blame them for actually doing what they have to to better their lives. And I know managers from many religions and ethnicities. Maybe you’re just not not the right material to be a manager and the other people are. And I feel perfectly capable of telling you about earning. I work hard and get paid for it. And then you try to take the money I worked for. Money you HAVEN’T EARNED. You don’t earn health care by getting sick.

Sorry That All I know is how to get the job done rather than be a part of the clique. Come into Grand Rapids and try and get yourself a well paying management job in a locally owned business if your sir name doesn’t have a Vander in it. You have a better chance at winning lotto. By suporting brownosing you have no ethical autority to speak on issues like this, because brownosing is dishonest. $ years? Bigdeal When you have seen things over a quarter century, get back to me. Paul Harvey used to have a saying that he used on his news and commentary many a time over the years that could very well be applied to now. " Self rule without self restraint leads to tyranny". My health has gone down the tunes from working hard and getting nothing for it, obviously there is a lack of restraint in the buisness world, it’s about to reap what it sowed.

 

[Arwen037]

Brownnosing is how we get along as a society. It’s just called something different when it’s between an employee and an employer. And you still haven’t addressed my point about the fact that I’m too young to comment, but plenty old enough to support your wife. Explain that to me.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Brownnosing is how we get along as a society. It’s just called something different when it’s between an employee and an employer. And you still haven’t addressed my point about the fact that I’m too young to comment, but plenty old enough to support your wife. Explain that to me.

Boy do you not get it. If you are old enough to work you are old enough to pay taxes. At your young age you obviously from your comments havent seen enough of the real world to make judgements yet. Your taxes go into a moshpit already. This healthcare bill isn’t going to make a hill of beans difference anyway. When it was good ole GW running up the deficits even Rush Limbaugh said its no big deal ad that we will roll the printing presses to pay of the debt someday. Where was you compaling back then? Now somebody different is running up the debt with differents programs and you wine and snivel over it. Thats very disengenuous. I find it pretty condescending for you to say healthcare is some earned. I think some people around here need to be retaught the definition of earn, it goes far byond mere agreement.

 

[narrowpath]

I always here Americans make the arguement that “You’re public system is socialism” as an arguement against it.

Here’s my question: so what? Yeah, its socialism, and its working great. Viva the Canadian socialist health care system. Saying it’s socialism is not an arguement.