Change of heart on socialized medicine

[maryjk]

You comparing us to one country. Most of the rest of the countries dont have Canada’s problem. Even Switzerland who societal model we were originally based on has the socalled scoialized medicine. **Funny thing the deathrate at birth for us is higher than other 1st world countries and our life expectantcy isn’t anywhere near the top anymore. **The neocons posting in this thred are so worried about freedom, I don’t find very much freedom in loosing one’s home because one has cancer treatment.

You call people posting here neocons, which is a violation of forum rules And just before then you cite the standard reasons that people that know nothing about public health cite.

You might want to do some actual research about public health care, rather than just listening to your Grandmother. Start by finding out why we have higher infant mortality rates. (Hint: it has something to do with us counting EVERY child born alive.) You might also want to look at the population of the US. It will give you a hint about life expectancy.

And I don’t find much freedom in being taxed to death. At some point you are going to run out of other people’s money.

 

[royal_archer]

In truth if we make health care accessable based on wealth, we are devaluing life to coincide with the value of the buck which is worthless by the way because it’s not backedd by gold. So while you are entitled to your opinions you have no right to complain about the USA being a culture of death.

Health care is available to those who are willing to be a contributing member of society There is plenty of charity for those who are unable. Those who cut themselves off from society and those who do not make an effort will be more likely to fail. Wealth is only one way to get health care, Being a dependable blue collar worker, and being a member of a family are other ways to get insurance paid for.

 

[royal_archer]

Better than none at all or loosing your home for it.

Of course you are completely ignoring all of the other options available.

 

[royal_archer]

You comparing us to one country. Most of the rest of the countries dont have Canada’s problem. Even Switzerland who societal model we were originally based on has the socalled scoialized medicine. Funny thing the deathrate at birth for us is higher than other 1st world countries and our life expectantcy isn’t anywhere near the top anymore. The neocons posting in this thred are so worried about freedom, I don’t find very much freedom in loosing one’s home because one has cancer treatment.

You can talk theories of a hypothetical better system but we will have to deal with the system as being ram rodded through congress. This system is based on corruption and pay offs to political constituencies. It is a fallacy to advocate this proposed system base on what it could be. We have to condemn it for what it is.

 

[choy]

i’m happy with the system here in Canada

although i would understand the frustration of those who live in far away small towns. its hard to run such a large country with so few people. Canada is like what? twice the size of the US but only 10% the population. plus some towns are really remote especially here in BC where the mountains can make land travel really long as you have to drive around them

 

[aspawloski4th]

You call people posting here neocons, which is a violation of forum rules And just before then you cite the standard reasons that people that know nothing about public health cite.

You might want to do some actual research about public health care, rather than just listening to your Grandmother. Start by finding out why we have higher infant mortality rates. (Hint: it has something to do with us counting EVERY child born alive.) You might also want to look at the population of the US. It will give you a hint about life expectancy.

And I don’t find much freedom in being taxed to death. At some point you are going to run out of other people’s money.

Not when its printed out of thin air. The money supply is very fuid and ever changing based on insider control. I don’t find much freedom in going homeless if I get cancer or something that drastic.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You can talk theories of a hypothetical better system but we will have to deal with the system as being ram rodded through congress. This system is based on corruption and pay offs to political constituencies. It is a fallacy to advocate this proposed system base on what it could be. We have to condemn it for what it is.

There still isn’t a final bill reconciled between the 2 houses. So you can’t talk about what is, because there is no “is” yet. Funny how it bad for the governemnt gets ripped for corruption by you, but the insurance industry that is ten time more corrupt gets a total pass.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You call people posting here neocons, which is a violation of forum rules And just before then you cite the standard reasons that people that know nothing about public health cite.

You might want to do some actual research about public health care, rather than just listening to your Grandmother. Start by finding out why we have higher infant mortality rates. (Hint: it has something to do with us counting EVERY child born alive.) You might also want to look at the population of the US. It will give you a hint about life expectancy.

And I don’t find much freedom in being taxed to death. At some point you are going to run out of other people’s money.

Your insulting my grandmother is agianst furum rules too. My grandmother I trust, some statician I don’t. Yes I know there are other facotrs in the USA’s overall health, I’m not dumb. We sleep far less than anyother nation on earth, maybe because we have to work soo much to make ends meet.

 

[maryjk]

Your insulting my grandmother is agianst furum rules too. My grandmother I trust, some statician I don’t. Yes I know there are other facotrs in the USA’s overall health, I’m not dumb. We sleep far less than anyother nation on earth, maybe because we have to work soo much to make ends meet.

Let me see, you called those posting a “neocon”.

I said you should listen to others about health care. How is that insulting?

We also count babies born very premature. Try being a baby born in Germany, if you don’t weigh at least a pound, you don’t get counted. I don’t think that has anything to do with the cost of insurance. It has to do with the value of life.

 

[Arwen037]

I know people in my family well enough to know what they are going to say before they say it.

Prove it. Get your grandmother on here.

If not everyone can acess something thats life saving then no one has a right to it.

So no one has the right to organ transplants. Not everyone has access to them because there are so few to go around.

One’s income determines one’s right to live.

No, one’s income determines one’s right to buy insurance & health care procedures. We don’t shoot people who don’t make enough.

If you are so scared of reform you must be an insurance Therapist.

What???!!! That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. First off, there is no such thing as an insurance therapist. Second of all, thinking that a government run health care system is a bad idea is not being scared of reform. I think reform is in order. Such as more regulations against physician owned labs and clinics. Look up how much that costs us. Finally, do you even know what a physical therapist is, or are you commenting on things you don’t have any knowledge of?

 

[pathia]

But you have an option to move or die and you have been choosing death over moving. Not paying for your medical care does not condemn you to death, it is condemning you to moving.

I need chronic preventive treatment, you don’t get that in the ER, no matter how many times you claim that I can get it.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Keep the posts charitible or the thread will be closed.

 

[Ella]

You can talk theories of a hypothetical better system but we will have to deal with the system as being ram rodded through congress. This system is based on corruption and pay offs to political constituencies. It is a fallacy to advocate this proposed system base on what it could be. We have to condemn it for what it is.

NOW is the time for everyone to contribute their ideas and make the system we adopt the best health care system we can, that is affordable and covers everyone. Just like, um, Switzerland for instance.

 

[Ella]

i’m happy with the system here in Canada

although i would understand the frustration of those who live in far away small towns. its hard to run such a large country with so few people. Canada is like what? twice the size of the US but only 10% the population. plus some towns are really remote especially here in BC where the mountains can make land travel really long as you have to drive around them

choy, please tell us about your experiences with the system in Canada. What do your neighbors and co-workers think about the Canadian system?

 

[Ella]

But you have an option to move or die and you have been choosing death over moving. Not paying for your medical care does not condemn you to death, it is condemning you to moving.

I think this statement is one of the most callous, evil things I’ve ever seen a healthy person say to a sick person in my entire life.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Prove it. Get your grandmother on here.

So no one has the right to organ transplants. Not everyone has access to them because there are so few to go around.

No, one’s income determines one’s right to buy insurance & health care procedures. We don’t shoot people who don’t make enough.

What???!!! That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. First off, there is no such thing as an insurance therapist. Second of all, thinking that a government run health care system is a bad idea is not being scared of reform. I think reform is in order. Such as more regulations against physician owned labs and clinics. Look up how much that costs us. Finally, do you even know what a physical therapist is, or are you commenting on things you don’t have any knowledge of?

Actually I do know what a physical therapist is. My wife has had issue where she has needed them since before you were even in diapers. If it weren’t for governement healthcare she has she would of not gone to one a few years ago and be crippled right now. Ever heard of psoriatic arthraitis and ganglion cysts? She gets plagued with both, the Enbrel she take for the psoriatic arthraitis compromises her immune system, so she gets sick more than most of us. As far as physician owned labs I’ll say this < I know of a lab that is not doctor owned in the community I live in,that is just as expensive as any other lab and screws up more than any physician owned lab. They are known for having to do it over again lots of times. Screwups are not forgiveable in the medical world.

 

[aspawloski4th]

But you have an option to move or die and you have been choosing death over moving. Not paying for your medical care does not condemn you to death, it is condemning you to moving.

Which is pretty close to dieing.

 

[Arwen037]

I know of a lab that is not doctor owned in the community I live in,that is just as expensive as any other lab and screws up more than any physician owned lab. They are known for having to do it over again lots of times. Screwups are not forgiveable in the medical world.

Just look at the numbers. I even have articles I’ll quote.
The Office of the Inspector General publicized reports in 1989 stating that patients who treated with a physician who owned a clinical lab underwent 45% more lab services than typical Medicare patients. Another study, by the US General Accounting Office, showed that physicians who had financial stakes in diagnostic imaging services ordered 54% more MRIs (Feldstein; Manchikanti 727-8)

Unneeded testing or therapies also greatly increase the amount of money that insurance companies, Medicare, and Medicaid have to pay out. The increased burden on Medicare and Medicaid has led to increased legislation (Pear 1; Wilson 68).

“A recent report indicates that approximately $8 billion of the US healthcare budget of $1.9 trillion is spent on physicians’ extra income derived from their ownership in outpatient facilities…” (Manchikanti 725).

Feldstein, Mary. “Doctor-clinic ties in area questioned” *St. Louis Post-Dispatch*
     16 July 2008. 23 Sep 2008. <http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/healthcare/st/CCDEB996C2629E63862574880014A33F?OpenDocument>.

Manchikanti, Laxmaiah MD; Erin Brisbay McMahon JD. “Physician Refer
Thyself: Is Stark II, Phase III the Final Voyage?.” *Pain Physician *Nov 2007. 18 Sep 2008. < [pa(name removed by moderator)hysicianjournal.com/crrent_issue_vw.php?journal=38&code=912&issue=past_issue>](http://www.pa(name removed by moderator)hysicianjournal.com/crrent_issue_vw.php?journal=38&code=912&iss)

Pear, Robert. “With Assorted Therapists Setting Up Shop in Doctors’ Offices, Questions for Medicare” The New York Times 1 June 1999. 18 Sepr 2008. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...755C0A96F958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

Wilson, Rachael; Shawn Carraher; Sarah Carraher; Gerald Ferris; Charles Carraher. “When Entrepreneurship and Ethics Collide: The Case of Physician-Owned Specialty Hospitals”* The Journal of Applied Management and Entrepreneurship *Jan 2008. 18 Sep 2008: ProQuest. Online.

These links are about a year old, so I can’t promise they are all still active, but if you actually care, I’m sure you can find the original articles.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Just look at the numbers. I even have articles I’ll quote.
The Office of the Inspector General publicized reports in 1989 stating that patients who treated with a physician who owned a clinical lab underwent 45% more lab services than typical Medicare patients. Another study, by the US General Accounting Office, showed that physicians who had financial stakes in diagnostic imaging services ordered 54% more MRIs (Feldstein; Manchikanti 727-8)

Unneeded testing or therapies also greatly increase the amount of money that insurance companies, Medicare, and Medicaid have to pay out. The increased burden on Medicare and Medicaid has led to increased legislation (Pear 1; Wilson 68).

“A recent report indicates that approximately $8 billion of the US healthcare budget of $1.9 trillion is spent on physicians’ extra income derived from their ownership in outpatient facilities…” (Manchikanti 725).

Feldstein, Mary. “file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gifDigg file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gifYahoo! file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gifDel.icio.us file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.gifFacebook file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image005.gifReddit file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image006.gifDrudge file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image007.gifGoogle file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image008.gifFark file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sam/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image009.gifStumble It! Doctor-clinic ties in area questioned” St. Louis Post-Dispatch

16 July 2008. 23
Sep 2008. http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bu...CCDEB996C2629E63862574880014A33F?OpenDocument.

Lets define when tests are needed and not needed. Which is more subjective than one would think. My maternal grandmother( the one who is not a nurse) had a primary physician for years that wouldnt order tests needed to find her massive healthproblems,becuase he waas affraid of ordering too many tests, the same doctor for my maternal grandmother was the primary for a beloved nieghbor of my paternal grandmother. This neighbor of my paernal granmother(the nurse) was outoors on his porch having family time with his grade school aged children while my grandma was out doors doing her own thing. My grandma’s niehgbor started loosing his breth and turning blue. My grandmother called 911 he was taken to the hosptital and was misdiagnosed as not having a heart attack because that doctor wouldnt order the tests needed, and that neighbor died, and his children went fatherless. Because of not ordrig the proper tests. My maternal grandmother’s health got to be better for a small time when she went to a doctor who had her tested properly. This story is very important to me, that maternal grandmother passed away 4 days before my wedding. If Granny Ann Would of done what Granny Irene pladed for her to do(get a better doctor), I likely could of had her at my wedding as she should of been. ButtyGranny Ann’s doctor was too much in insurance’s back pocket.

 

[Arwen037]

These are tests that are clearly not needed. Things like running diagnostic tests for EVERYTHING when it’s fairly clear it’s a cold, or unnecessary x-rays (which is dangerous), just so their labs makes more money.

The Office of the Inspector General publicized reports in 1989 stating that patients who treated with a physician who owned a clinical lab underwent 45% more lab services than typical Medicare patients. Another study, by the US General Accounting Office, showed that physicians who had financial stakes in diagnostic imaging services ordered 54% more MRIs (Feldstein; Manchikanti 727-8)

“A recent report indicates that approximately** $8 billion** of the US healthcare budget of $1.9 trillion is spent on physicians’ extra income derived from their ownership in outpatient facilities…” (Manchikanti 725)

Really. You think that those are really all necessary, and that all of the doctors who didn’t own labs weren’t sending patients for labs that they needed?

You ignore every suggestion that isn’t tax the “rich”. You claim to want cheaper health care, but you refuse any suggestions to make it so. You don’t care how much health care costs, just so long as someone else pays it. Did you read anything I posted?

And if you want medical mistakes, how about the physician owned PT clinic that hired underqualified PTs (because they were the cheapest) and gave a patient 3rd degree burns.