Change the name of the forum?

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I noticed the recent change to the forum which says the forum is for the discussion of Catholic tradition and customs. With that said, I think it would make much more sense to call the forum “Catholic traditions & customs” rather than “Traditional Catholocism.” Unfortunately, I think the current name of “Traditional Catholocism” has an implication that welcomes some of the discussions that are actually discouraged.

Am I reading it wrong?
 
I agree that the forum title is misleading. It makes it seem like this is a section for Traditional Catholics like the Eastern Catholic forum is for Eastern Catholics.
 
I find that Catholics who really delve into the traditional worship and customs of the Church find a support group here that they get in very few places (much less an average mainstream parish). The traditions that they cling to are more than their own experience, it’s the heritage that the saints before us have passed on - yet it is a heritage that many Catholics today are completely unaware of.

In the wake of Vatican II, many customs and traditions that embody the teachings of the faith were swept aside. My claim would be that this dismantling of customs have actually weakened belief in the dogmas that these customs and traditions enshrined.

“Traditional Catholics” realize this, and they often seek fellowship with others who have experienced this older side of Catholicism that is, for the most part, unknown today.
 
I find that Catholics who really delve into the traditional worship and customs of the Church find a support group here that they get in very few places (much less an average mainstream parish). The traditions that they cling to are more than their own experience, it’s the heritage that the saints before us have passed on - yet it is a heritage that many Catholics today are completely unaware of.
It doesn’t seem to me that the purpose of this section is to provide a “support group” for Traditional Catholics. First, many (if not most) of the people who post in this section do not define themselves as Traditional Catholics and do not attend the EF. Second, I assume that most of us here moderate our thoughts to comply with the rules.
 
I agree that it is kinda misnamed. More than once as I was advocating saying the black and doing the red in the liturgy and sacraments board I received comments to the effect of “buzz off, this isn’t the traditional catholic forum”
 
With all people posting here who advocate the Latin Mass to exclusion of the OP, I always thought of this as more the traditionalIST board.

I think there should be a board for “regular” Catholics who have no problems with a devout Mass in the language spoken by the people, that is vernacular.

I converted in the 70s from a protestant sect where worship consisted of “sit and listen with no vocal (name removed by moderator)ut” from what was considered the “audience”.

I dont see much difference between sit and listen and, kneel and listen.
 
I certainly wish there was a Forum for the EF adherants as well as a Forum for the OF adherants. As it stands now there is some conflict in definitions as to what makes a tradionalist. So why not just set up two different Forums. I can subscribe to not attacking those who like one Form of the Mass over the other.

We are all part of the Catholic church. 🙂
 
My reason for keeping the name of the forum is because we want to welcome the Traditionalist Catholic.

We expanded the description the Catholic traditions and customs, because the traditions are part of the life of the Traditionalist Catholic and the non Traditionalist as well.

In other words, what we don’t want to do is to exclude anyone who wants to discuss Catholic traditions and customs.

If we go too far to the Traditionalist side, it leaves out mainstream Catholics who may not be EF attendees, but are certain attached to many other rich traditions of the Church. We’ve had great threads on Dominican, Franciscan and Benedictine life, school of thought and contribution to the Church. This is part of Catholic tradition. Catholic tradition does not begin and end with the EF.

We have had some very good threads on the current situation of the SSPX, without the nastiness that one usually sees on some other sites. I have visited sites where posters used vulgarity in the defense of the traditional faith. We don’t want that kind of behavior here. If you’re going to defend something, use good theology, philosophy and keep everyone’s name out of it.

We want to expand the discussion to bring back the clergy. There was a time when we had several deacons, priests and religious brothers posting on TC Forum. They have left, because they were abused. There are many forms of abuse. Some people were dismissive toward them. Some people were outright hostile. Catholic tradition has always fostered reverent dealings with clergy and religious, even when one felt that the individual may be mistaken. Throughout history, we have always looked back with disdain at those who mistreated our clergy and our religious, even when they had a right to be angry. Suddenly, it has become fashionable.

Then we complain that the clergy and religious do not take an interest in our concerns. Why should they? These are busy people who don’t have time to argue a point three days in a row, unless the religious or clergyman has been assigned by his superiors to make this his apostolate. There are two for whom this is part of their ministry.

We want to open the forum to people who have Catholic traditions that are ethnic. There are many beautiful traditions and customs that come from from very old Catholic cultures such as France, Spain, Italy, Sicily, Malta, North Africa and other interesting places.

As moderator here I learned that the tabernacle was not always center stage. It’s an 800 year custom introduced by Franciscans. I had taken it for granted that it dated back 2,000 years. That’s less than half of the Church’s age.

When we open the door to traditions and customs we open the door to the wealth of our Catholic patrimony.For example, subjects like veiling and modesty have been beaten to death and no one has reached any conclusion. Subject such as this are best left to die off. No one is learning anything. The conversation repeats itself.

However, I will not tolerate abuse, condescension, dismissive attitudes, arrogance, vulgarity, sarcasm, personal attacks, griping, rants, or anything that I believe is not really about tradition.

Comparing the EF and OF is not what the Holy See wants to see us do. Therefore, we will not allow anything that is contrary to the mind of the Holy See. It is not traditionally Catholic to be antagonistic toward the Holy See, defiant of the Holy See, dismissive of the Holy See, offensive to the Holy See or belligerent toward the Holy See.

Nor is this forum a soap box for proselytism for any particular group or any particular side of tradition. It is a forum for scholarly and friendly dialogue where everyone should feel relaxed enough not to have to be looking over his or her shoulder.

I sincerely hope this helps. I’m trying to do the best I can to accommodate as many people as possible. Feel free to PM me with questions, ideas and concerns. If you post them, I may not see them.
 
I certainly wish there was a Forum for the EF adherants as well as a Forum for the OF adherants. As it stands now there is some conflict in definitions as to what makes a tradionalist. So why not just set up two different Forums. I can subscribe to not attacking those who like one Form of the Mass over the other.

We are all part of the Catholic church. 🙂
It is because we are all members of the same Church that we don’t need separate forums. As Thomas has said, attending the EF is not the only sign that someone loves Cathlolic traditions. For some, there is not an EF available, for others while there may be one, it is not celebrated in their home parish.

My family and I practice many, many traditional devotions and try to incorporate our faith into our whole lives; however, our regular Sunday Mass is not an EF.
 
I think there should be a board for “regular” Catholics who have no problems with a devout Mass in the language spoken by the people, that is vernacular.

I converted in the 70s from a protestant sect where worship consisted of “sit and listen with no vocal (name removed by moderator)ut” from what was considered the “audience”.

I dont see much difference between sit and listen and, kneel and listen.
I don’t see it the same way. Saturday I attended a memorial/funeral service for my 40-yr niece (by marriage) at a Lutheran Church. The Holy Communion service (as they call it) was almost identical to the OF and was most devout and reverent. Organ was powerful and the homily/eulogy was moving. Granted the substance was different but not everyone who attends at that church has an advanced degree in theology to know the difference.
 
Maybe a year ago, one could have argued that this is the “traditionalist forum”. I don’t think that is at all the case here. The minute anyone says anything that elevates the EF, you have about 5 people saying “Don’t pit the OF against the EF”.

Therefore, I think the name is fine as it is.
 
I don’t want to go down the path of making this forum an exclusive area for the Traditionalist Movement.

First of all, it would be impossible to guard the door.

Second, many new comers come through the forum because they understand the term “tradition” differently. It’s not until they spend a little time here that they hear the alphabet soup: SSPX, EF, OF, TLM, NO, ICRSS, FSSP and so forth. Some will simply ask questions for their edification and they should receive answers that are clear. Others will have knee-jerk reactions, if the tone of the response is abrasive.

Third, the EF is not the center of Catholic tradition. Catholic tradition is very expansive. To limit a forum on Traditional Catholicism and say that one cannot bring in subjects such as the Fathers of the Church, the development of dogma, the growth of the different schools of theology, the different devotions found in Catholicism, the art, music, science and even the wonderful personalities in Catholic history who have given so much to Catholic tradition is very limiting. It gives the outsider a wrong image of Traditional Catholicism. It makes it look as if it’s all about the EF, SSPX, Trent and Vatican II.

Don’t you folks want to learn about these other Catholic customs and traditions or share what you may know about them?

Here is our chance to move away from making comparisons all the time and expand into making some discoveries.
 
It would simply not be possible to split off a separate forum for every type of Catholic spirituality. Specific areas can still have their own threads. While this name has attracted some who wish only to extol the virtues of their own Catholic spirituality while the criticize all others and try to convert others to their views, such instances are not common and quickly dealt with. Furthermore, it is hardly unique to this area of CAF. Even something as innocuous as Family Life see this sort of issue. Just mention vaccinations over there and see what I mean.

This place is watched over by a man of even temperment that keeps discussions on a charitable note. He is a man of deep faith who understands and respects diversity. He is a man of more patience than most of us have. Thanks, JR.😃

Oh, then there is the moderator here. 👍

Seriously, this potentially contentious place could not be in better hands. Thank you, Thomas.

For everyone who posts here, if it ever gets too heavy, try a joke or two.
 
I don’t see it the same way. Saturday I attended a memorial/funeral service for my 40-yr niece (by marriage) at a Lutheran Church. The Holy Communion service (as they call it) was almost identical to the OF and was most devout and reverent. Organ was powerful and the homily/eulogy was moving. Granted the substance was different but not everyone who attends at that church has an advanced degree in theology to know the difference.
My condolences on your niece.

Lutherans are at least liturgical, even though mislead. I converted from a fundamentalist church where the people just sat and listened, their only participation allowed was the singing of hymns (or as they said “songs”) the people were not even allowed to say Amen at the end of prayers.

When I converted it was in the mid 70s, when the “spirit pf Vat II” was at it’s highest. And that was what Mass was like, the people saying the responses and participating. And that is what I still prefer.

The EF does not exist anywhere in my diocese, except for one schismatic chapel that says the Papacy ended with Pious the IIth.

To me a silent Mass with no parrticipation would be very like the fundamentalist services I was raised on, no vocal participation.

But I may just be talking out of my hat, since the EF form of the Mass is not available to me and really outside my frame of reference.
 
The EF is supposed to “enrich” the OF…but we cannot compare them.

How’s that supposed to work?

I’m asking a serious question. Is “enrichment” some mystical thing, or does it occur when people discuss the differences and make decisions based upon this discussion? Or is it a more clericalist thing…Clerics can compare rites, not the laity?
 
My condolences on your niece.

Lutherans are at least liturgical, even though mislead. I converted from a fundamentalist church where the people just sat and listened, their only participation allowed was the singing of hymns (or as they said “songs”) the people were not even allowed to say Amen at the end of prayers.

When I converted it was in the mid 70s, when the “spirit pf Vat II” was at it’s highest. And that was what Mass was like, the people saying the responses and participating. And that is what I still prefer.

The EF does not exist anywhere in my diocese, except for one schismatic chapel that says the Papacy ended with Pious the IIth.

To me a silent Mass with no parrticipation would be very like the fundamentalist services I was raised on, no vocal participation.

But I may just be talking out of my hat, since the EF form of the Mass is not available to me and really outside my frame of reference.
A traditional understanding of the “active participation” of the faithful during mass somewhat differs from how it is commonly interpreted today. I think Pope Saint Pius X outlines participation in praying Holy Mass (during what is now known as the EF) with a Missal quite well in the following quote:

*“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X*

Furthermore, an EF high mass (Missa Cantata) provides a lot of opportunity for vocal participation.

mda
 
It has been my observation that different people ahve different ideas about what it is to be a traditional Catholic.
:)🤷🙂
 
I think there should be a board for “regular” Catholics who have no problems with a devout Mass in the language spoken by the people, that is vernacular.

.
Isn’t that what the Liturgy and Sacraments forum is for?
 
With all people posting here who advocate the Latin Mass to exclusion of the OP, I always thought of this as more the traditionalIST board.
Asking for latin in the Mass is not traditionalist. That’s just following the letter of Vatican II, right here: “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
I think there should be a board for “regular” Catholics who have no problems with a devout Mass in the language spoken by the people, that is vernacular.
I think there should just be a board for those who what the liturgy as the church asks, that is, with a frequent use of latin, gregorian chant, and polyphony.
 
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