Changed my views on Homosexuality

[ratio1]

I’ve never been quite clear on the meaning of “intrinsically disordered”, unless it means something like “a more or less stable disposition toward an objectively immoral action”.

I think that’s probably right.
The problem that some Catholics have is just because the feeling is disordered they then think the person is also disordered and then they are culpable for it. That is obviously dead wrong.
The mistake of secularism is to equate non culpability with normalcy. Just because it’s not someone fault that they have these feelings doesn’t make them normal feelings.

The correct path is that we are all brokened and “disordered” in one way or the other and in need of Gods help. Whether it is struggle with pride, lying, violence, SSA or alcoholism, we need to seek Gods help and the initial steps may be to avoid the resulting acts but with time the urge to do such acts can be reduced. Of course one may never be able to change the underlying predisposition to being violent for example, but it may diminish to such non significance that it doesn’t really matter much in the person’s life such that the person is able to function virtually without this burden. In the case of violence a man may have normal reactions to anger instead of resorting to violence, in the case of alcoholism a man may be able to resolve his life issues without turning to alcohol, in the case of SSA a man may be able to develop normal heterosexual feelings and true love once again without SSA feelings all the time.

 

[ratio1]

Hence anyone who suggests violence is normal and they should have a license to beat their wives, or to suggest an alcoholic should treat alcohol as their solution to their problems, or to tell an SSA person that being gay is just normal and can even get a “gay marriage” is a very DANGEROUS AND HARMFUL idea to the souls.

I personally know people who have struggled with Unwanted SSA and have seen them transformed by Gods power. Not that they all became straight, that’s not the goal. The goal is to live in Gods true Love and not a counterfeit love.
I’ve seen these people who have been immensely harmed by secular society teaching that this is normal and should accept for who they are.
We all know what secular society thinks so we do not need another lecture about it here to promote non catholic values.
Whereas a lot of Catholics do not know about the joyful alternative to the true path of love.

 

[curious_cath]

Yes, but not acting on one’s attractions does not necessarily make them disappear.

That is right. Not necessarily. Not in 100% of the cases. Also, not in 0%. I believe it is probably 50-50% chance. Maybe a little less. But the chance does exist!

Do you have evidence of your claim of 0%?

There are plenty of people who engage in homosexual acts that are heterosexual.

I respectfully disagree. It is like saying there are plenty of people who engage in killing someone who are not murderers. Does this make sense to you? A killing is precisely what makes you a murderer.

Only in your narrow little world, where people are defined by what they do!

Oh really?! In your place I would consult a judge of law. He used to demonstrate in the court of law how wrong you are!

By the way, I did not qualify your “little world”, so please refrain to do that with mine. Thanks!

 

[ratio1]

Yes in the real world secularism is also mainstream. Catholicism is diminishing in the West. No one denies that. It’s the bleeding obvious. Your point being? Why are you here on this forum?
Is this the forum to espouse mainstream secular values?

 

[Arbovirus]

This probably explains why some are so adamant in their opinions. The more something is slipping from your grasp, the more tightly you try to hold on to it.

Oh I don’t know, people in general would be very vocal about a contagious plague spreading. It’s not about losing anything. It’s about society choosing false narrative over reality and truth.

 

[ratio1]

It’s about society choosing false narrative over reality and truth.

You put it so well.
The problem I see it now is also:
Not only is society choosing false narrative, they now want the people who chose the truth to follow their false narrative as well. I thought secularism prides itself on equal respect. But evidently not, when religious freedoms are being restricted like pronoun police and baking gay wedding cakes.

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you for posting.

The Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist strengthens us and allows difficult things to sanctify us for life eternal with Him.

 

[deMontfort]

Yes in the real world secularism is also mainstream. Catholicism is diminishing in the West. No one denies that. It’s the bleeding obvious. Your point being? Why are you here on this forum?
Is this the forum to espouse mainstream secular values?

Seems to be an epidemic of liberal Catholics-in-name-only around here recently. Must be a full moon or something…

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think ssa people should seek this as an end

Indeed not. SSA people should seek the same thing Christ has taught us - the Kingdom. When He is the center of our lives, “everything else will be added”. If a person is called to marriage, such a one will be healed and able to marry. If a person is called to celibacy, such a one will be healed and given the grace to be chaste.

SSA persons are called to the same we all are- chastity. Not all can marry, want to marry, or should marry.

To suggest to a ssa person there is nothing one can do to change their SSA feelings is VERY VERY VERY damaging. One can definitely lessen it with Gods help.

God’s grace is greater than all of our wounds and failings. We should pray for healing for all of our brothers and sisters who suffer the wounds of this fallen world, and seek their prayers for ours. And if He chooses not to heal the person, do as Paul did, and accept “my grace is sufficient for thee”.

 

[ratio1]

Trying to convince them they should try to modify or change themselves is harmful.

Please define what you mean by modify or change?

Is convincing a SSA person to modify their sexual attraction by limiting oneself of their disordered feelings (ie ssa) harmful?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The key is to distinguish lust and attraction. People with SSA need to be told that they can and must combat lust in their lives with all possible means – centrally, prayer. But they needn’t be told that they have any control over their temptations. The temptation itself leads to shame, so telling a person with SSA that they can control their temptations is equivalent to telling them they are to blame for their temptations. That feeds into a cycle of sin and lust.

Better to tell them to combat lust, just like any other person.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Is convincing a SSA person to modify their sexual attraction by limiting oneself of their disordered feelings (ie ssa) harmful?

What does “limiting oneself of one’s disordered feelings” mean? How is it done?

 

[guanophore]

So to be clear, the attraction or inclination alone is believed to be disordered but not the person who has the attraction.

Yes. It is not unlike things that occur on a physical level such as persons being born with spina bifida or genitalia belonging to both sexes. It is not what God intended.

Therefore the Church is saying that a person who is not intrinsically disordered can have intrinsically disordered inclinations.

Yes. The church calls this concupiscence, or a tendency toward sin, and turning away from the will of God. It is a result of the Fall.

However, if the person ACTS on their disordered attraction, then is that action considered disordered, or is it considered (only) sinful?

To some extent, all sin is “disorder” since it is outside of our Creator’s plan for us.

I guess what I am asking is how does the Church define “disordered”?

Anything that goes against God’s plan for Creation.

 

[ratio1]

Avoid occasions of sin for example. Like stop having sexual fantasies towards same sex persons.
What qwertygirl is suggesting is that it is ok to do this to your same sex partner.

 

[luisvera]

We need to denote there are many kinds of love, now, romantic/sexual love is proper and oriented towards sexuality (Duh!) by it’s nature, now, we can see clearly the whole point of sexual impulse is procreation, which can only take place with a male and a female, so, a homosexual relationship is kinda like trying to fix the software of your computer with an eraser, it makes no sense, there IS a legitimate love that can and does arise between people of the same sex (and different sexes) which is friendship, a homosexual relationship is no more than a twisted mashup of a friendship and a sexual relationship that in the end, is none, it’s a frankenstein monster so to speak

 

[ratio1]

You’ve hit the nail there.
To clarify my previous post.
The correct Catholic way for a SSA person is to develop agape love for same sex peers and never Eros love.
What qwertygirl seems to be suggesting is that it is ok to develop Eros love towards same sex peers. Which is fine for her life and for secular society. What concerns me is that she seem to be saying (and I’m awaiting her reply) that she thinks that to encourage ssa person to Not develop Eros love towards the same sex is somehow harmful.
I see great harm in encouraging a ssa person to develop Eros love for same sex peers because that is not true love. They should aim to develop agape love. Or philios love.

 

[ratio1]

What you suggest and what other suggest on here is quite harmful.

Please tell me exactly what I said that is harmful?

 

[ratio1]

There’s plenty of research to back up my belief.

There’s plenty of research and science that says a person cannot resurrect from the dead.

 

[guanophore]

I respectfully disagree. It is like saying there are plenty of people who engage in killing someone who are not murderers. Does this make sense to you? A killing is precisely what makes you a murderer.

You seem to have very limited life experience, so you may not realize that killing someone does not always make a person a “murderer”. Some people have been convicted of murder who killed in self defense. And some people engage in same sex activity that are not homosexual, never claimed to be, and don’t want to live a “gay lifestyle”.

Relationships in a women’s maximum security prison

Fiction is not far from reality.

www.sbs.com.au

You may be a black and white thinkers who are not able to see any gray.

by the way, I did not qualify your “little world”

And what world would that be? Or what disqualifies you? I think there is a great deal about the “big world” you don’t know. Maybe you never need to know?

 

[curious_cath]

Some people have been convicted of murder who killed in self defense. And some people engage in same sex activity that are not homosexual

Are you saying that killing is analogue to same sex activity, while being a murderer is analogue to being a gay person?