Changing 10 Commandments?

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planter654 said:
it is not so much that we worship them but that we disobey God .You shall not carve idols for yourselve etc. And we have done exactly that. We have made them which we were commanded not to do and also have placed them in God’s house of prayer, don’t you think? Why this is so simple to understand and yet we soothsay the oppose of God’s most Holy word to our own pleasure. I simple ask and I think we don’t need a theoligion on this one. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything-------you shall not bow down before them or whorship them…is this not simple to understand?

God Bless

Thanks
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I’ll regret getting into this discussion because this subject is always like trying to teach pigs how to sing.

The whole point of making images “to yourselves” implies making an idol to be worshiped AS A GOD. I

The Commandment was given to a people who had lived in a hotbed of image-idolatry and adopted the gods of the Egyptians. The whole golden calf incident was a relic of that. When God had not yet appeared among men, as a man, NOTHING could “image” Him. But in the Incarnation, He humbled Himself to appear with a human face. This changes the whole relationship.

You will never find in any Orthodox or Catholic church an image of any THING (the Commandment does say “thing”) that is used for devotion. No frogs, cattle, sheep, trees, bugs . . . Christ Himself is “the image of the living God”. The images in Catholic Churches are all of Christ or the Saints who have reflected His glory through their lives.

Catholics and the Orthodox do not “make to ourselves” idols to be worshiped. The images of Christ and the Saints are reminders that we are all called to heroic sanctity in living for and in Jesus Christ. They are not idols. They are not worshipped.

I realize that I am tired and reaching a point of exasperation, but I dearly wish that those who challenge the Church on this matter would put some actual effort into studying the question.
 
planter654 said:
/QUOTE]Well Planter
so you don’t own photographs of yourselves or others?By putting them up aren’t you putting yourself and your loved ones in a position of worship-on the wall. or is it just worship of ego that we plant ourselves around the house with staged images.Photos are considered graven images and if you take your logic to the nth Fundamentalist degree you should not even have photos. I’ll keep my pieta Thank you very much! and all the thousands of great art worksof all media that move me. ,Not only because of their beauty but because it causes me to focus on those who are portrayed. I’m not going give up almost 2000 yrs of sacred art for some wrong headed interpretation of a commandment:mad:And if you saw"the passion of the Christ" double shame on you…😃
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TMC said:
This would be silly if you were not seemingly so serious. The Commandments were not numbered in Scripture. Have you read Exodus and Deuteronomy? Did you see numbering in there? Modern Jews also combine what most Protestants call 1 with 2. They say the prohibition on idols is in 2, but combine it with the command to “have no other Gods before Me.” The commandment they put as no 1 is “I am the Lord your God” standing by itself.

Catholicism does not in any way support the worship of idols. Can you show any document or statement from the Church that says otherwise?
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You say Catholicism does not in any way support the worship of idols and can we show any documents or statement from the Church, but I can only tell you of what I see our church with statues that are craved to look like our saints etc. Do we not sell them and bless them and kneel before them? And have we not also carried them about in special feast celebrations. Like we did with our Dear Blessed Mothers statue I saw in Rome and even in our communities? Actions do speak louder than words. and I mean no disrespect in asking and mentioning this.

God Bless
 
TMC said:
This would be silly if you were not seemingly so serious. The Commandments were not numbered in Scripture. Have you read Exodus and Deuteronomy? Did you see numbering in there? Modern Jews also combine what most Protestants call 1 with 2. They say the prohibition on idols is in 2, but combine it with the command to “have no other Gods before Me.” The commandment they put as no 1 is “I am the Lord your God” standing by itself.

Catholicism does not in any way support the worship of idols. Can you show any document or statement from the Church that says otherwise?
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Are we saying that God did not do anything perfect that we have to go and chance what he has commanded us to do and the need to combined his commandments. I only can see how foolish we are and what confusion and misunderstanding when we do so! God is not a foolish God. Now we are arguing over what is 2 or 6 or what ever. May God have mercy on us all.

What I do know God conquers in the end… period. Lucifier is a great deceiver and knows more than anyone God does exist. Thanks be to God.
 
rpp said:
👍 👍 👍

In fact the church specifically condemns the practice.

Just because some people cannot appreciate art or be inspired by it does not mean that all people should be condemned to a dreary, dull and plain existence.

Remember it is a very modern idea, less than 150 years old, that art is about self-expression. Before that, it was about conveying a a commonly understood message with images.
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We can call it art or what ever soothsaying name we want to call it. God commanded us not to do it and that is plainly understood. It reminds me about Eve. God said do not to eat the apple from the tree of good and evil and God has tells them before hand what would happen, “you will surley die” God is not a liar!

But Eve did not say …But God I did not eat the whole apple only had a couple of bits. Or what did you mean God by …do not? Or we love you God and didn’t think you would mind and would forgive us. Or we thought it wasn’t as important as the other thing you commanded us. Times are changing God whats the big deal. Its 2008.

What did God do he punished them all no excuses for anyone right. God says what he means and does what he says, don’t you think? God is not foolish or changes his mind like we mortal humans, don’t you think.

God is the same today as yesterday. God is the begin and God is the end.

Jesus taught us the Lords Prayer
Thy Kingdom come and thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven!

Thanks
 
rpp said:
👍 👍 👍

In fact the church specifically condemns the practice.

Just because some people cannot appreciate art or be inspired by it does not mean that all people should be condemned to a dreary, dull and plain existence.

Remember it is a very modern idea, less than 150 years old, that art is about self-expression. Before that, it was about conveying a a commonly understood message with images.
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It was about conveying a commonly understood message with images. They had no images in the Old Testament and the message was never lost and much clearly understood and in obedience must more seriously, don’t you think.

Lucifier is a great deceiver who starts out slowly idols idols idols we are now slaves to them don’t you think?

Thanks
 
EphelDuath said:
No, we haven’t. There’s a difference between statues and idols.

We don’t worship them. We use them to represent the saints we honor and the God we do worship, just as God ordered two angels to be put on the Ark of the Covenant that David and Israel danced and sang to.
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And the ark was put in the Holies of Holies never to be seen again.
 
SolaFide said:
  1. First of all the Ark of the Covenant NEVER depicted God in any form, it depicted His mercy seat or throne and we know from Scripture that cherubim surround the throne of God.
  2. The Ark of the Covenant was NEVER seen by the people at large after it was placed in the Holy of Holies. It was only seen by the High priest and only once a year. It wasn’t accessible to the average person. That means the cherubim would never be venerated by the average person. Thus God prevented the Ark from becoming an object of worship. Not even the ark was to be venerated…when it was it was taken from the people in war (1 Sam. 4).
  3. The bronze serpent (which I’m sure someone will use as an excuse for idols) was only to be used on ONE occassion as a type or picture of Christ and how he would heal from sin (John 3:14). But since the people began to venerate that too, God had one of the good kings smash it to bits (2 Kings 18:4).
  4. Moses’ body was taken and buried by an angel of the Lord so the people wouldn’t venerate it.
Seems God went to A LOT of trouble to make sure the faithful didn’t venerate images or relics yet why are they so prevalent in some churches?
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mercygate said:
I’ll regret getting into this discussion because this subject is always like trying to teach pigs how to sing.

The whole point of making images “to yourselves” implies making an idol to be worshiped AS A GOD. I

The Commandment was given to a people who had lived in a hotbed of image-idolatry and adopted the gods of the Egyptians. The whole golden calf incident was a relic of that. When God had not yet appeared among men, as a man, NOTHING could “image” Him. But in the Incarnation, He humbled Himself to appear with a human face. This changes the whole relationship.

You will never find in any Orthodox or Catholic church an image of any THING (the Commandment does say “thing”) that is used for devotion. No frogs, cattle, sheep, trees, bugs . . . Christ Himself is “the image of the living God”. The images in Catholic Churches are all of Christ or the Saints who have reflected His glory through their lives.

Catholics and the Orthodox do not “make to ourselves” idols to be worshiped. The images of Christ and the Saints are reminders that we are all called to heroic sanctity in living for and in Jesus Christ. They are not idols. They are not worshipped.

I realize that I am tired and reaching a point of exasperation, but I dearly wish that those who challenge the Church on this matter would put some actual effort into studying the question.
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You are very rude in your first statement calling us pigs! We do not live in a even more hot bed?? Tell it to your creator our God. God told Moses he know how rebellious they would be even before they got to the promise land. Look at the idols idols idols and we are even worn by ST. Paul beware of idols… soothsayers beware of them, test the spirits.

As far as studying woe to us who have deeply done so and do not obey his commands for I do not know God’s thoughts. I am a sinner dung on the earth and I do not wish to change God’s words. Sometimes we just need to simply read it and let God work in us.

I trust in God only for it is God who makes us Holy. It is God’s house, God’s Kingdom. Enter in by the narrow gate for few shall enter.

I pray pray for all of us for God dearly loves us, how much do we love him is what I ask myself. I want to do all that pleases him.

God Bless
 
Please understand I am not judging for I will be judge, only that I want to do all that pleases our heavenly Father and Jesus has taught us that. Jesus did not change and spoken clearly on this subject saying I did not come to change one tittle or jot of the law. But came to also now bring us even higher wanting, us all to become Holy for our God is Holy. We are all I believe given the grace needed to get there with the power and strength of God’s help for we can accomplish nothing on our own.

The ten commandments to me was our milk. God is bringing us even higher spiritually. Love our enemies pray for them dearly, forgive one another as I have forgiven you.

St Paul in Antioch saw them making idols of their god Diana and where selling them marketing them for money. St. Paul told them to stop such practices. That was for their god Diana, I would think even more for God’s Holy saints would it not upset him?

Let us pray pray for our Pope our priest each other that our Heavenly Father will give us the power and strength to do his will. God has showed us all how much he dearly loves us all and his infinite patience with us for he knows how little we are.

I seek in simply asking him to help me to become one with him as Jesus is one in him that I be one in Jesus who is one in God. in all that he wills and desires for me, to do all that pleases him.

a very little child of Yahweh God
 
I’m sorry, everyone, I didn’t mean to start something. I didn’t know this thread was continuing. I’m glad you guys are so informed on this, & I will try to remember all the good points.

To SolaFide & planter654, I’m sure you’ve seen young lawyers & politicians who have a portrait of JFK or Bobby Kennedy on their wall. Do you honestly believe they are worshipping them? I think it’s more likey they are inspired by them & want to try & live like them.

I just saw moving images in the movie Bella. It can be hard to be a Christian in modern life, but the main character’s role gave consistent examples of how to quietly lead a Christian life today. I have been thinking about it every day since & using that example. These are modern images, but I think they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to help us.

I didn’t worship the film or the statue I saw of St. Michael. I might forget my guardian angel if I never see an image of one. Are you saying we shouldn’t thank our guardian angels & ask for their continued protection & help in drawing closer to God? The little statue of an angel I have clipped to my car visor reminds me to do just that. I certainly never worship my visor clip. Do you think God will send me to hell for having it?
 
And the ark was put in the Holies of Holies never to be seen again.
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Wrong, they marched it around Jericho.

But that’s not even the point because the orders were still in the Torah that was read to the people.
 
planter654 said:
You are very rude in your first statement calling us pigs! We do not live in a even more hot bed?? Tell it to your creator our God. God told Moses he know how rebellious they would be even before they got to the promise land. Look at the idols idols idols and we are even worn by ST. Paul beware of idols… soothsayers beware of them, test the spirits.

As far as studying woe to us who have deeply done so and do not obey his commands for I do not know God’s thoughts. I am a sinner dung on the earth and I do not wish to change God’s words. Sometimes we just need to simply read it and let God work in us.

I trust in God only for it is God who makes us Holy. It is God’s house, God’s Kingdom. Enter in by the narrow gate for few shall enter.

I pray pray for all of us for God dearly loves us, how much do we love him is what I ask myself. I want to do all that pleases him.

God Bless
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Mercygate was not calling you pigs it’s a metaphor, idiomatic to english which I gather you do not speak well, and I don’t no what you meant by "live in a hot bed?"Reading God’s word simply can work for private consolation but if you are interpreting and judging people on it - you have to go much deeper- what did idols mean back then?What is the historical background of Israel’s disdain for them?What kind of power were idols supposed to have? How would the idols effect the community of nomadic hebrews- & so on.Bible maybe simple but it is not simplistic and there are meanings there which time and distance have hidden from us. Delve deeper into the bible and do not rely on mere surface interpretations.Because God’s word speaks to us on many levels and if you think the only idols out there are statues that you better read a lot deeper.
 
SolaFide said:
  1. First of all the Ark of the Covenant NEVER depicted God in any form, it depicted His mercy seat or throne and we know from Scripture that cherubim surround the throne of God.
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Deuteronomy 5:8 *"'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; . . . *Are the cherubim not something in heaven? Why then are they not prohibited?
  1. The Ark of the Covenant was NEVER seen by the people at large after it was placed in the Holy of Holies. It was only seen by the High priest and only once a year. It wasn’t accessible to the average person. That means the cherubim would never be venerated by the average person. Thus God prevented the Ark from becoming an object of worship. Not even the ark was to be venerated…when it was it was taken from the people in war (1 Sam. 4). . .?
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Note that the Holy of Holies did not exist until 250 years after the ark was fabricated. The cherubim were on view for a long time.
 
juliamajor said:
Mercygate was not calling you pigs it’s a metaphor, idiomatic to english which I gather you do not speak well, and I don’t no what you meant by "live in a hot bed?"Reading God’s word simply can work for private consolation but if you are interpreting and judging people on it - you have to go much deeper- what did idols mean back then?What is the historical background of Israel’s disdain for them?What kind of power were idols supposed to have? How would the idols effect the community of nomadic hebrews- & so on.Bible maybe simple but it is not simplistic and there are meanings there which time and distance have hidden from us. Delve deeper into the bible and do not rely on mere surface interpretations.Because God’s word speaks to us on many levels and if you think the only idols out there are statues that you better read a lot deeper.
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I never typed that or can I remember puttin in hot bed I don’t know how that got in there or what that means myself. As far as not speaking English well to your liking you are still missing the point. I am not judging you or your great wisdom in English. I am not trying to interpret God’s word but live it. Only as a little child can you become spiritually mature. Humbling myself in knowing nothing.

God said your thoughts are not my thoughts. We are all mere mortals. God said he will use the foolish to show the wisdom of the wise. I don’t think God made his messages so complicated for he knows how very little we are. If you can move all mountains and have all love and have not charity you are dead. That is not hard to understand.

Remember the woes to you Scribes and Phariesees hypocrites. Calling them also blind fools. Jesus got angry for the first time where? In the temple those who were teaching the laws. Jesus came also to reteach the laws and even commented on those who were teaching saying… you are teaching the laws and you do not understand this. Remember Jesus took a little child and the child answered correctly and the wise man did not.

We are no longer under bondage by no one for Jesus has set us free indeed. They were forced not to practice their faith openly and threaten, killed if they did not obey. Jesus walk among those who were held in bondage the poor the slaves.

We can know the bible word for word but if we do not live it are we still not the living dead.

There was no relic of Moses and surprise we still remember him, talk about him.

Do we have an image relic of God our creator? Why not do you think? What is God’s image?

God Bless
 
I do not worry about how I speak but my actions on how I spend this precious gift of life serving God and in obedience to his will not my thoughts or desires but his will and desire for me.

thanks
 
planter654 said:
I do not worry about how I speak but my actions on how I spend this precious gift of life serving God and in obedience to his will not my thoughts or desires but his will and desire for me.

thanks
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Planter, my fellow Catholic friend, how do you resolve God telling the Jews to construct the Jewish Temple, or the Serpent on the pole?

Was God simply sending the Jews back into the same idolatry that He had rescued them from?
 
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