Changing rites in the Catholic Church

[choy]

are there many people of a different ethnic origin within a Rite or Church?

for example, would you expect Chinese or Japanese or Filipinos in an Eastern Church?

 

[Vico]

are there many people of a different ethnic origin within a Rite or Church?

for example, would you expect Chinese or Japanese or Filipinos in an Eastern Church?

Yes, in certain locations.

CCEO Canon 28 gives rite as liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary heritage expressed as a manner of living the faith.

From reading various canons (CIC and CCEO, Orientalium Ecclesiarum) and Vatican statements about the Oriental Churches, the rite is part of a person. The idea is that a person’s religious formation is usually of their parents, guardians, or spouses rite, which will be of the Christian tradition that is in that territory (from original missionary activity) or of the country of origin (for immigrants).

They may become a member of a particular Church sui iurus through infant or adult baptism, or through marriage, or through conversion, or less frequently, by request approved by the Holy See. Requests have been denied. The Holy See may approve transfer of ritual church for the good of an individual, community, or region. I have not researched examples for this yet.

So some Chinese in the far North, may be Orthodox (Russian), and they could have transferred to an Eastern Catholic Church. In Japan and Phillipines I think there are mostly Roman Catholic (Latin) churches. Where there are immigrants from the original Eastern territories, there may be Eastern Catholics.

 

[Aramis]

are there many people of a different ethnic origin within a Rite or Church?

for example, would you expect Chinese or Japanese or Filipinos in an Eastern Church?

I see Filipinos, Navajo, and Eskimos every Sunday, in a parish that is ostensibly Ruthenian…

 

[ciero]

The transfer might be approved, but ordination is unlikely to be.

It depends upon how long and which ordination; The pope might approve deaconal ordination, and forbid presbyteral, and only conditionally approve he transfer pending agreement to terms.

In other cases, one or the other bishop might forbid. If both, however, recommend for ordination and base this upon years of praxis in the eastern church, exceptions are sometimes granted.

In the 1960’s, the Ukrainians were noted for a bunch of priests who were married and former Romans, but the actual number is not readily found, and it’s more a pre-internet mid-west rumor. I’ve met a couple Roman church priests who have met one, but that’s still anecdotal.

Where do you dream this stuff up from? The pope doesn’t approve change of ritual churches, AT ALL! The change happens between 2 bishops thats all, Rome does NOT get involved. I have seen paperwork that came from Latin chancery offices that specifically stated that the change could take place but specifically said the person was NOT eligible for ordination, I have also seen the paperwork come back WITHOUT these limitations.

 

[choy]

Yes, in certain locations.

CCEO Canon 28 gives rite as liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary heritage expressed as a manner of living the faith.

From reading various canons (CIC and CCEO, Orientalium Ecclesiarum) and Vatican statements about the Oriental Churches, the rite is part of a person. The idea is that a person’s religious formation is usually of their parents, guardians, or spouses rite, which will be of the Christian tradition that is in that territory (from original missionary activity) or of the country of origin (for immigrants).

They may become a member of a particular Church sui iurus through infant or adult baptism, or through marriage, or through conversion, or less frequently, by request approved by the Holy See. Requests have been denied. The Holy See may approve transfer of ritual church for the good of an individual, community, or region. I have not researched examples for this yet.

So some Chinese in the far North, may be Orthodox (Russian), and they could have transferred to an Eastern Catholic Church. In Japan and Phillipines I think there are mostly Roman Catholic (Latin) churches. Where there are immigrants from the original Eastern territories, there may be Eastern Catholics.

i know, i haven’t heard of an Eastern Catholic Church in the Philippines yet but for someone like me who’s already moved to another country, i now have access to many Eastern Churches. so i’m wondering if i enter an Eastern Church, what i would expect inside the Church

 

[Vico]

i know, i haven’t heard of an Eastern Catholic Church in the Philippines yet but for someone like me who’s already moved to another country, i now have access to many Eastern Churches. so i’m wondering if i enter an Eastern Church, what i would expect inside the Church

There might be somebody on this forum that is a member of St. Marys Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Vancouver (Ash Street). I don’t know about the church membership and it has been a long time since I have been in Vancouver. In general about 1/4 to 1/3 of the people there are from SE Asia.
stmarysbc.com/

 

[Aramis]

Where do you dream this stuff up from? The pope doesn’t approve change of ritual churches, AT ALL! The change happens between 2 bishops thats all, Rome does NOT get involved. I have seen paperwork that came from Latin chancery offices that specifically stated that the change could take place but specifically said the person was NOT eligible for ordination, I have also seen the paperwork come back WITHOUT these limitations.

Go read canon law. CCEO, specifically. That the pope gives permission automatically is in later materials.

Perhaps you’d actually take a read of it… it’s enlightening.

 

[Formosus]

The transfer might be approved, but ordination is unlikely to be.

It depends upon how long and which ordination; The pope might approve deaconal ordination, and forbid presbyteral, and only conditionally approve he transfer pending agreement to terms.

In other cases, one or the other bishop might forbid. If both, however, recommend for ordination and base this upon years of praxis in the eastern church, exceptions are sometimes granted.

In the 1960’s, the Ukrainians were noted for a bunch of priests who were married and former Romans, but the actual number is not readily found, and it’s more a pre-internet mid-west rumor. I’ve met a couple Roman church priests who have met one, but that’s still anecdotal.

I know that I never signed any such agreements forgoing the possibility of receiving Ordination. Perhaps this is a Ruthenian thing, but I can say with full certainty that is not the practice of the Ukrainian Eparchy of St. Josaphat’s.

 

[ciero]

I know that I never signed any such agreements forgoing the possibility of receiving Ordination. Perhaps this is a Ruthenian thing, but I can say with full certainty that is not the practice of the Ukrainian Eparchy of St. Josaphat’s.

As someone who deals with change of Ritual Churches almost weekly, I can assure you that if the paperwork is done correctly, between 2 bishops without getting Rome involved you will not have to deal with the issue of ordination. The problem arises when someone (usually a canon lawyer in a Latin chancery office who dosen’t deal with this issue on a regular basis) sends the paperwork off to Rome for their stamp of approval (a totally unnecessary step).

Rome (Congregation of Eastern Churches) has stated over and over…they do NOT wish to be in the “change of rite business”.

 

[ciero]

Go read canon law. CCEO, specifically. That the pope gives permission automatically is in later materials.

Perhaps you’d actually take a read of it… it’s enlightening.

When giving advise on an internet forum maybe you should use the latest and most up to date info. Just a thought.

 

[kaiserhaus]

When we changed to the eastern rite, we asked our Priest, who wrote letters for us to the Latin bishop and to our Eparchy, asking permission. We then submitted letters, as well. It took almost 2 years, during which time my husband entered deacon training (a 4 year program). Once the letters came back approved, we made a statement of faith in front of the congregation, and at the same time, the congregation approved us! Our youngest son was chrismated and received communion. Our two older sons are still Latin rite Catholics. My husband was ordained a deacon after 4 years in the seminary. My husband could seek ordination as a priest, but would more than likely seek ordination outside the USA to keep the peace with the Latin rite Bishops. Most eastern rites do not flaunt the married priesthood in the face of the Latin church. But it is something that more and more eastern deacons are considering, as the eastern rites grow in the USA and more priests are needed.

Also, in our parish, we have people from all over the Middle East, as well as many of Latin descent (as in Spain, Mexico, and South America), as well as many former Latin Rite Catholics.

Eastern Catholicism is pretty simple and straight forward, which is what draws a lot of us former Latin rites to it. Becoming an official eastern rite Catholic was also simple - a letter, two Bishops saying yes, and here we are, 10 years later!

 

[Aramis]

When giving advise on an internet forum maybe you should use the latest and most up to date info. Just a thought.

Ordination of former Latins and of married men from the US still requires Rome’s approval within the US. By the letter of the law.

That the UGCC doesn’t adhere? Never has… partly because the Archeparchy was in Canada, specifically to keep the jurisdiction non-US… a legalistic dodge, and one that worked. (Ignoring all the nastiness it triggered from certain Roman groups of laity…)

The Ruthenian Church still submits such candidates names for approval (per Bishop Gerald) as of a year ago. So far, they are apparently all approved for the deaconate.

And since the automatic permission for transfer is by apostolic letter, it could be revoked on a papal whim at any point, requiring all further to be approved higher up.

Heck, the Latin Church sends all married men’s ordinations to the presbyterate for approval by the Pope. Such approvals are handled by a consistory, but still are signed in the pope’s name.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I don’t mean any disrespect by this question … but why would you need to get something like this approved? And why would a change be denied? I don’t understand what the problem would be; after all, all the various rites are approved by the Catholic Church. Why couldn’t a Catholic simply go to the church with the rite that he prefers? I would think that allowing the individual Catholic the freedom of choice in the matter would be a very reasonable thing to do.

Agreed. as a matter of fact i dont quite understand such. in brasil anyone can go to any Catholic Church and no questions asked. the CC in brasil is one Church and not many. in America follows protestantism as if one CC here is not the same as the One down down the street. i dont understand if the CC is one anywhere, why i would need permission to go another CC if i so desire? it does not make sense to me this buracracy.

 

[Vico]

Agreed. as a matter of fact i dont quite understand such. in brasil anyone can go to any Catholic Church and no questions asked. the CC in brasil is one Church and not many. in America follows protestantism as if one CC here is not the same as the One down down the street. i dont understand if the CC is one anywhere, why i would need permission to go another CC if i so desire? it does not make sense to me this buracracy.

You can go to any Catholic Church, but there are also obligations. Living the faith is not just personal, but public. The Church documented the rights and obligations in the canons:

CCEO Canon 28

1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
   CCEO Canon 40
2. Other Christian faithful are also to foster an understanding and appreciation of their own rite, and are held to observe it everywhere unless something is excused by the law.
   CCEO Canon 403
3. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.

 

[lbdjohnson]

Several years ago I transferred from the Latin sui juris church to the Maronite. I was required to have 2 sponsors in the Maronite local church, to have a letter from the Maronite pastor, and to send letters to the Latin bishop and the Maronite eparch, (bishop). When the Maronite bishop sent his approval, there was a time limit set for me to complete the process at the local church by a brief ceremony with the congregation, the priest, and the sponsors. If I had not participated in this ceremony within the time limit, the change of ritual church would not take place and I would have remained in the Latin Church.

 

[Allyson]

It has to b approved by the reigning Pope. This is usually done but not required with the Magisterium.

You only petition Rome if your are moving from east to west, OR only after a petition to move from west to east has been denied by the local bishop.

 

[5Loaves]

…i dont quite understand such. in brasil anyone can go to any Catholic Church and no questions asked. the CC in brasil is one Church and not many. in America follows protestantism as if one CC here is not the same as the One down down the street.

The question isn’t about going to liturgy at any Catholic Church. It’s about changing one’s canonical status from one Catholic Church sui iuris to another Church sui iuris.

… i dont understand if the CC is one anywhere, why i would need permission to go another CC if i so desire? it does not make sense to me this buracracy.

Everywhere in the world we are free to go to any Catholic Church. A Ruthenian Catholic can go to liturgy at a Melkite Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic can go to a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Syro-Malabar Catholic can go to a Latin Catholic Church, a Latin Catholic can go to a Chaldean Catholic Church etc. When you marry, baptize/chrismate your children, enter holy orders, then you need to do that within the Catholic Church *sui iuris *of which you are canonically a member.

 

[lbdjohnson]

When I changed from the Latin to the Maronite churches I was informed that changing from one sui juris Catholic church to another is only permitted once in a lifetime. This means that the decision I made is final and that I cannot change back to the Latin Church or to a different Catholic church. I am Maronite for the rest of my life. I considered this carefully before I made the change.

 

[kaiserhaus]

Wow. Lots of (name removed by moderator)ut and so legalistic. There are reasons for not jumping from one rite to another. As one earlier poster pointed out, it is to maintain the local traditions and cultural norms of the eastern Churches, to keep them from being “latinized” any further. Vatican II was an awesome document for eastern rite Churches…it further defined the right of each “rite” to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in their own language and in whichever liturgical format was normal to them (we use the DL of St. John Chrysostom). The languages in our DL are common to where the rite grew up, so to speak. In our parish, because of the situation for immigrant populations, we use Arabic, Greek, Latin, and English - with a little Spanish here and there.

Changing rites through your Latin Bishop and the Bishop of the rite you are moving to, happens once in a lifetime. Therefore it should be carefully prayed about and contemplated. If you are not practicing your faith within a rite, why change? Certainly not for geographic convenience. The charisma of each rite is unique and the spirituality is also unique. There is a different flavor to each rite.

As to ordination, very few go through the hassle and paperwork, and time, just to be ordained later on. The thought of ordination as a priest intimidated my husband, as it is a huge responsibility. The deaconate has its own set of responsibilities, as it is so different from the deaconate in the western Church. And a married priest has it pretty rough. Most Eastern rites cannot support a priest - and his family. It is a financial burden as well as a spiritual one. Our parish is blessed with 3 deacons and a 4th to be ordained soon. There is only one who is “native” to our rite - the others are all converts from the Latin Church. The eastern side of the aisle is growing and growing because so many Americans and others are discovering the incredible richness of the eastern Church.

We are Melkite, but we also attend services with the Russian church, even the Coptics. Evening prayer with different rites is so enriching and when they all work together on projects like feeding the homeless, it is a wonderful experience.

Canon law is wonderful and I note several posters who love quoting it and trotting out their latin phrases, but when we are talking eastern churches, the use of latin is very, very limited - usually to the latins. So perhaps it would be nice to post things that are in English. I know this forum is based in Latin Rite Catholicism, but for this thread, perhaps we could discover a different viewpoint…the eastern one. Especially since we are discussing moving to the eastern rites. Just a point of view. The legalism of the Latin rite is what drove me away to the eastern rites; so perhaps it is just something I noticed in all these posts. I did not mean to offend.

:byzsoc:

 

[lbdjohnson]

My journey to the Maronite Church was a bit circuitous. I was raised in a family of agnostics. Other members of my extedended family were Protestant and very anti-Catholic even going so far as to identify the Catholic church as “Satan’s organization on Earth”. I had a conversion experience to Christianity as an adult and joined one of these fundamentalist anti-Cathlic churches, but something was always missing. I listened to EWTN, and especially Mother Angelica, and became convinced of the reality of the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist and of the Communion of Saints. I wondered how such an “evil organization” could have such wonderful gifts. My religious grandmother had had me baptized into the Episcopal church at age 14, more out of social pressure than any conviction on my part. I then attended RCIA classes at my local Latin parish and was confirmed into the Catholic church at the age of 66. The last Catholic in my family was my maternal grandfather who emigrated to America in 1894 from Lebanon. He came to America to go to medical school, married an American protestant woman and stayed in the US. He was raised in a Maronite family, but he became a non practicing Presbyterian in his process of Americanization. The Latin church fully realized in me the reality of the Real Presence in the eucharist and to some extent the Communion of Saints. I then attended my first Maronite Divine Liturgy, and the sheer beauty and power of the Liturgy was transporting to me. The reality of an eternal Communion with every Maronite Catholic family member both the living and the dead became vibrantly real to me. In time I realized that attending Maronite Divine Liturgy connected me to my Catholic ancestors in a very special way and that I must make that connection complete by transferring for life to the Maronite Catholic Church.