Changing rites in the Catholic Church

[Vico]

Wow. Lots of (name removed by moderator)ut and so legalistic. There are reasons for not jumping from one rite to another. As one earlier poster pointed out, it is to maintain the local traditions and cultural norms of the eastern Churches, to keep them from being “latinized” any further. Vatican II was an awesome document for eastern rite Churches…it further defined the right of each “rite” to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in their own language and in whichever liturgical format was normal to them (we use the DL of St. John Chrysostom). The languages in our DL are common to where the rite grew up, so to speak. In our parish, because of the situation for immigrant populations, we use Arabic, Greek, Latin, and English - with a little Spanish here and there.

Changing rites through your Latin Bishop and the Bishop of the rite you are moving to, happens once in a lifetime. Therefore it should be carefully prayed about and contemplated. If you are not practicing your faith within a rite, why change? Certainly not for geographic convenience. The charisma of each rite is unique and the spirituality is also unique. There is a different flavor to each rite.

As to ordination, very few go through the hassle and paperwork, and time, just to be ordained later on. The thought of ordination as a priest intimidated my husband, as it is a huge responsibility. The deaconate has its own set of responsibilities, as it is so different from the deaconate in the western Church. And a married priest has it pretty rough. Most Eastern rites cannot support a priest - and his family. It is a financial burden as well as a spiritual one. Our parish is blessed with 3 deacons and a 4th to be ordained soon. There is only one who is “native” to our rite - the others are all converts from the Latin Church. The eastern side of the aisle is growing and growing because so many Americans and others are discovering the incredible richness of the eastern Church.

We are Melkite, but we also attend services with the Russian church, even the Coptics. Evening prayer with different rites is so enriching and when they all work together on projects like feeding the homeless, it is a wonderful experience.

Canon law is wonderful and I note several posters who love quoting it and trotting out their latin phrases, but when we are talking eastern churches, the use of latin is very, very limited - usually to the latins. So perhaps it would be nice to post things that are in English. I know this forum is based in Latin Rite Catholicism, but for this thread, perhaps we could discover a different viewpoint…the eastern one. Especially since we are discussing moving to the eastern rites. Just a point of view. The legalism of the Latin rite is what drove me away to the eastern rites; so perhaps it is just something I noticed in all these posts. I did not mean to offend.

:byzsoc:

I am glad to see the churches are working together on the charitible projects.

Just as the Holy Spirit of Love is in the Word, which we read in the scriptures, the bishops (that codify the laws of the Church) are trying to express that love in practical terms.

It is out of love that the traditions are protected. And also that faithful do not change churches has another purpose. The family love is central to the Catholic and that includes the nuturing of children. So we raise our children in a Church of one’s own laws of the one responsible for the education of the Catholic Children, usually the father or mother. This education is in a tradition, Liturgy, theology, discipline, etc., and becomes part of the persons identity. To switch away from that is discouraged. If one does switch, the question arises as to why, are they running away from something they dislike, or it is for spiritual good? One can always adopt private theology and devotional practices from any Catholic tradition, it is the public observance, your witness, that shows love for the Church and also provides religious continuity for the children.

I posted some laws that contained Latin. You said “trotted” like it was showing off. Is that really what you mean? Your remark sounds angry, and if it is, ok, I can understand because you said you have an aversion to law. Yet, the faithful do not make the laws, but are obliged to observe them, Latin or Eastern. The only option you leave me is to never mention CCEO on the Eastern Forum. That puts me in a double bind: how to meet my obligations as an Eastern Catholic and how to please others at the same time. And that makes me feel sad. I don’t want to generate negative reactions with my remarks.

 

[choy]

Everywhere in the world we are free to go to any Catholic Church. A Ruthenian Catholic can go to liturgy at a Melkite Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic can go to a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Syro-Malabar Catholic can go to a Latin Catholic Church, a Latin Catholic can go to a Chaldean Catholic Church etc. When you marry, baptize/chrismate your children, enter holy orders, then you need to do that within the Catholic Church *sui iuris *of which you are canonically a member.

except of course in cases of necessity or practicallity. like if you’ve moved to an area that doesn’t have parish of you sui juris Church, then you can have baptisms and weddings in the local Catholic Church

 

[5Loaves]

except of course in cases of necessity or practicallity. like if you’ve moved to an area that doesn’t have parish of you sui juris Church, then you can have baptisms and weddings in the local Catholic Church

Well, yes, the sacrament of Baptism for the child can be administered anywhere , with proper form and proper matter, however the child’s membership in the Church is in the Church *sui iuris * of the father.

Canon 37 Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church *sui iuris *of enrollment.

A wedding could occur in a local Catholic Church for any Catholic with the necessary permission. A Latin Catholic may be active as a parishioner for years in a parish that isn’t actually the parish in which they domicile/live. (This is quite often the case.) In that case there needs to be permission to marry in the parish Church they consider by virtue of their participation to be their home parish but which in fact isn’t formally their parish because they live (their address) in a different parish.

When you have Eastern/Oriental Catholics seeking a wedding in a Church outside their patrimony there are most definitely considerations.

Canon 38 Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

MARRIAGES - EASTERN RITE If they marry Latin Rite Catholics, a special permission is needed for the ceremony in the Latin Rite. This permission can be given by the diocesan bishop of either party. However, when an Eastern Rite Catholic approaches a Latin Rite priest to arrange for marriage to a non-Catholic only the Eastern Rite diocesan bishop is competent to issue the necessary permission for mixed marriage or dispensation from disparity of cult.

There are a number of issues in canon law which differ between the CIC, Codex Iuris Canonici, Code the Latin Church and the CCEO, Code of canons of Oriental Churches, Additionally there are Codes of Canons for individual Churches *sui iuris , and the CCEO does indicate that those separate codes of a particular Church * sui iuris are to be considered.

Off the top of my head, deacons can and do licitly officiate for marriages in the Latin Church. A marriage with the deacon officiating nullifies marriage in the case of an Eastern Catholic. Impediments to marriage can be and are different in the CCEO, affinity is one that comes to mind as different in the Latin Church from the CCEO and again improper affinity could nullify the marriage. As mentioned in the quote above for marriage to a non-Catholic only the Eastern Rite diocesan bishop can issue the necessary permission. Etc.

So, yes, you certainly could have your wedding in the local Latin Church. Best be sure the pastor and the marriage preparation staff in Latin Churches have covered the bases unless you want to be wondering down the pike if you have a licit marriage.

 

[Biedrik]

I wonder, can a priest change rites? I imagine that the process would be extremely difficult if that is possible, especially if he is a member of a religious order, which would put more obstacles in the way.

 

[5Loaves]

I wonder, can a priest change rites? I imagine that the process would be extremely difficult if that is possible, especially if he is a member of a religious order, which would put more obstacles in the way.

I posed a similar question on another forum last month: Can Religious/Lay Brothers and Sisters be granted that change.

Here are some responses, each of these is a different responder:

“Priests/deacons can indeed change enrollment from one Church to another as can monastics/religious”

[re: a religious brother changing] “one we have the privilege of witnessing here today.”

“Just to clarify, the difficulty for monastics and religious would likely be less should they belong to an order which has an ‘Eastern province’ - e.g., Jesuits, Redemptorists, Benedictines, Marianists, Assumptionists, some Franciscans.”

“A former administrator of our parish (then bi-ritual Latin), upon his second retirement, successfully petitioned for a change of ritual.”

“Bishop John of Parma (Ruthenian) was a TOR Franciscan (Latin) before he was incardinated into the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh.”

 

[Vico]

I posed a similar question on another forum last month: Can Religious/Lay Brothers and Sisters be granted that change.

Here are some responses, each of these is a different responder:

The clergy can also obtain an indult from the Holy See (Congregation for Eastern Churches), to follow the rules of another ritual church, without actually changing ritual churches, it is called an adaptation of rite. It could be granted for an Eastern clergy to allow incardination in a Latin diocese, for example. They can then perform both rituals as in biritualism, and more.

This is different than the indult (or faculty) of biritualism which also grants the faculty to celebrate another Church’s Mass/Divine Liturgy and sacraments/mysteries.

 

[kaiserhaus]

To poster Choy - you are right, and when I read that I did sound angry. Possibly because I might me a little frustrated. When we changed rites, there were many in our former parish who felt we were no longer catholic and that we were anathema to them. It has been so very hurtful. We belonged to a dynamic Latin parish and were very active there. We also are godparents to many children there. Many of the parents then questioned whether or not we were still able to maintain our godparent status! When we go and visit our former parish for some event or other, we are not welcomed by all and are even shunned by many. My husband always wears his clerical garb when attending a religious function and that brings stares and avoidance by some; questions by many.

There are also those Latin rites who do not know there are other rites within the Catholic church that are every bit as valid. They feel that we have left “THE” church and are on the road to hell. Many do not allow our youngest son to co-mingle with their children. Our college-aged son maintained his Latin rite connection. He attends a Latin rite Catholic college and is a reader for Mass there. He misses the eastern rite when gone, but also finds much solace in the Latin rite.

The confusion with our change of rite has cut deep into our relationships with Latin friends who just don’t get it. They “trot” out their Canon Law and quote to us quite frequently. I would not mind, but it is always in the attack mode; never in the accepting mode. One woman even said to me, while we were attending a festival at our old parish and celebrating a godson’s birthday, “Don’t you have friends at YOUR church?” I was shocked and dismayed. And still hurt by it.

So, when I see people using Latin terminology and quoting canon law, it sort of gets under my skin. I apologize if it shows. I am trying to find balance and harmony in a world that is a little chaotic, and for ME, have found eastern Catholicism an oasis.

I do apologize for my anger and you are right; perhaps another thread would suit me better. Again, I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings. It was not intended. I had intended to try and take things down a notch or two in the vitriolic tone, but I guess it just backfired on me! The written word is hard; you think you get to know the author, but sometimes expression, nuance, tone are all misconstrued by a simple word.

I again apologize.:byzsoc:

 

[5Loaves]

Diaconissa-
Christ is in our midst!
I’m saddened to hear of the lack of charity you’ve experienced among your old friends and family members since your change to the Melkite Church. The lack of charity is certainly out there. The experience I’ve had of those Latin Catholics who seem short on the fruits of the Spirit has largely been on this forum where they come with an attitude full of hubris, rather than in my Latin parish where I’m also active and have only had people be confused but receptive.

Sometimes people talk about Eastern Catholics as a bridge between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox. I think we ECs have our hands full as a bridge between many in the Latin Church and the rest of the Catholic Church.

I’ve been glad for your presence here, kaiserhaus It seems like there generally haven’t been many of us EC females posting in the EC section. I’m not sure I remember any OC females posting. (Of course it’s easy to get confused here as to who is male and who female )

 

[kaiserhaus]

Your comments are so appreciated! Not many here use Diaconissa, and I also appreciated that nod, as well. Christ is among us!:byzsoc:

 

[Yeoman]

When we changed to the eastern rite, we asked our Priest, who wrote letters for us to the Latin bishop and to our Eparchy, asking permission. We then submitted letters, as well. It took almost 2 years, during which time my husband entered deacon training (a 4 year program). Once the letters came back approved, we made a statement of faith in front of the congregation, and at the same time, the congregation approved us! Our youngest son was chrismated and received communion. Our two older sons are still Latin rite Catholics. My husband was ordained a deacon after 4 years in the seminary. My husband could seek ordination as a priest, but would more than likely seek ordination outside the USA to keep the peace with the Latin rite Bishops. Most eastern rites do not flaunt the married priesthood in the face of the Latin church. But it is something that more and more eastern deacons are considering, as the eastern rites grow in the USA and more priests are needed.

Also, in our parish, we have people from all over the Middle East, as well as many of Latin descent (as in Spain, Mexico, and South America), as well as many former Latin Rite Catholics.

Eastern Catholicism is pretty simple and straight forward, which is what draws a lot of us former Latin rites to it. Becoming an official eastern rite Catholic was also simple - a letter, two Bishops saying yes, and here we are, 10 years later!

Was possible ordination in the back of your mind at the time you and your husband decided to change rites?

I read your later replies, and I’m certainly sorry that you have received some negative treatment from your old parishioners.

 

[Hieronimus]

Hello EC folks and Diaconissa,

I’m glad to have you all here and I’m glad to hear your family story, Diaconissa; I just transfered to the Melkite Church from the Latin Church last Sunday. I’ve been going to the Melkite Church for several years here in Columbus, OH. I am probably the first Indonesian who transfered to the Melkite Church. I and several others are educating the Latin Catholics in Indonesia to be aware that Eastern Catholic Churches exist and we are in communion with the Pope of Rome. We have a facebook page dedicated to this: “Katolik Timur” (meaning: Eastern Catholic). We are thinking to invite a priest from Australia to come and have a Divine Liturgy celebrated in Indonesia and establish a mission in the future. This is a long term vision of us… =)

 

[Aramis]

Having had several Catholic women who were interested in dating me refuse to believe that the ECCs exist and refuse to date me over it, I too have experienced some stigma for having adopted EC praxis.

As a generality, Latins are utterly ignorant of the EC praxis.

 

[Vico]

Having had several Catholic women who were interested in dating me refuse to believe that the ECCs exist and refuse to date me over it, I too have experienced some stigma for having adopted EC praxis.

As a generality, Latins are utterly ignorant of the EC praxis.

I am glad you did not date those unreasonable women.

 

[kaiserhaus]

*Yeoman - my husband is not looking to become a priest. He thought of it and went through the selection process when he was in high school and still Latin rite; but then we met and he came to realize his vocation was truly as a married man. He spent some time speaking with a priest shortly after our second child was born and the priest discussed with him that his vocation was to his family, and also to his community. It was a struggle because he was so drawn to serve. And at the time, the Latin rite deaconate program was closed to him because of his age and the age of our children. So he taught CCD, helped with RCIA (which I taught), was on parish council, etc. But when God brought us to the Melkite Church, and he was asked to become a deacon, he felt so fulfilled. The deaconate, as I have said in earlier posts, is quite different in the east than in the west and after 4 years of seminary and on-the-job training (so to speak) he feels completely satisfied that this is the service to the community he was feeling led to provide as a young man. He gained so much knowledge in the deaconate training and seminary, and learned there was so much to do as a deacon in the east. His fulfillment comes in having a job, a family, and being there for his parish. He loves it so much. And he realizes that God’s tug on his heart was leading him to the east his whole life. Sometimes God whispers, and with all the cacophony of life these days, it is quite often difficult to discern where you should be heading.

Blessings all. :byzsoc:

 

[Yeoman]

*Yeoman - my husband is not looking to become a priest. He thought of it and went through the selection process when he was in high school and still Latin rite; but then we met and he came to realize his vocation was truly as a married man. He spent some time speaking with a priest shortly after our second child was born and the priest discussed with him that his vocation was to his family, and also to his community. It was a struggle because he was so drawn to serve. And at the time, the Latin rite deaconate program was closed to him because of his age and the age of our children. So he taught CCD, helped with RCIA (which I taught), was on parish council, etc. But when God brought us to the Melkite Church, and he was asked to become a deacon, he felt so fulfilled. The deaconate, as I have said in earlier posts, is quite different in the east than in the west and after 4 years of seminary and on-the-job training (so to speak) he feels completely satisfied that this is the service to the community he was feeling led to provide as a young man. He gained so much knowledge in the deaconate training and seminary, and learned there was so much to do as a deacon in the east. His fulfillment comes in having a job, a family, and being there for his parish. He loves it so much. And he realizes that God’s tug on his heart was leading him to the east his whole life. Sometimes God whispers, and with all the cacophony of life these days, it is quite often difficult to discern where you should be heading.

Blessings all. :byzsoc:

Is he a Permanent Deacon?

 

[kaiserhaus]

Yeoman* - not sure what you mean by permanent deacon. In the Melkite rite, you are not assigned a permanent parish, if that is what you mean. It is more based upon where you are living and working, and the closest parish to you. There are so few Melkite parishes out here (3) that being assigned to one is not practical. My husband serves two intermittently, being on a “schedule” of service. On his Sundays “off” we quite often attend the Russian DL, as we love it so much, as well as the pastor and other deacons there. Several missions have begun to spring up, so we are hopeful there will be more parishes soon. Our “home” parish is about 30 minutes away on the freeway; something closer would be nice!!

Hope that answers your question about permanency. Other than he was ordained by the Archbishop and once ordained, the order is permanent.

Christ is Among Us!

:byzsoc:

 

[Aramis]

Is he a Permanent Deacon?

Kaiserhaus’ Husband is, like all EC deacons*, merely a deacon. The distinction of “permanent” versus “transitional” is not generally made in the Eastern Churches. But, since he is not actively studying for the priesthood, he is in essence a “permanent” deacon. Unlike the Roman permanent deacons, however, his bishop could decide at a later point to have him complete priestly studies, and then ordain him a priest.

• In the US, a few are termed “permanent deacons” in the Ruthenian church, but the term is not proper for EC use.

 

[ciero]

Yeoman* - not sure what you mean by permanent deacon. In the Melkite rite, you are not assigned a permanent parish, if that is what you mean. It is more based upon where you are living and working, and the closest parish to you. There are so few Melkite parishes out here (3) that being assigned to one is not practical. My husband serves two intermittently, being on a “schedule” of service. On his Sundays “off” we quite often attend the Russian DL, as we love it so much, as well as the pastor and other deacons there. Several missions have begun to spring up, so we are hopeful there will be more parishes soon. Our “home” parish is about 30 minutes away on the freeway; something closer would be nice!!

Hope that answers your question about permanency. Other than he was ordained by the Archbishop and once ordained, the order is permanent.

Christ is Among Us!

:byzsoc:

Deaconissa;

This statement is not true. Deacons are ordained for a particular parish in the Byzantine tradition. This does not mean that the deacon can not move to another parish due to work shifts or whatever, but a deacon is ordained for a particular parish.

Asking a deacon if he’s a "permanent "deacon is like asking a priest if he is a permanent priest. Makes no sense .

 

[Yeoman]

Deaconissa;

This statement is not true. Deacons are ordained for a particular parish in the Byzantine tradition. This does not mean that the deacon can not move to another parish due to work shifts or whatever, but a deacon is ordained for a particular parish.

Asking a deacon if he’s a "permanent "deacon is like asking a priest if he is a permanent priest. Makes no sense .

In the Roman Catholic Church, a Transitional Deacon transitions into the Priesthood. Their state as a deacon is a temporary. The Permanent Deacon, however, contemplates remaining in that status.

 

[Aramis]

In the Roman Catholic Church, a Transitional Deacon transitions into the Priesthood. Their state as a deacon is a temporary. The Permanent Deacon, however, contemplates remaining in that status.

The typical Roman “Permanent Deacon” is forbidden to be ordained a priest by Roman Canon Law. He is therefore permanently a Deacon in the sense that he will not rise higher into the hierarchy.

The EC churches don’t generally prohibit ordination of non-transitional deacons to the presbyterate. The Romans do. The EC make no distinction in terminology between non-transitional and transitional deacons; the Romans do. The EC make no distinction in mode of address between transitional and non-transitional deacons; the Romans, at least formally, do.