Changing times and Sola Scriptura

[cath2lic4ever]

My tradition does not embrace sola scriptura. But this looks like one of Jimmy’s baiting threads.

What good can possibly be gained by such?

what good can possibly be gained by such…answer a lot more people coming back to rome…as simple as that!

 

[O.S.Luke]

Or… the pushing of them farther away.

“Win an argument, lose a soul.” Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.

Doesn’t sound so simple to me.

 

[cath2lic4ever]

Ok, so you sola sctiptura folks, help us out.

Human cloning, acceptable or not?

Is it a sin not to care for the environment?

Allowing someone to die by with holding medical care? Food and water? Even if it is their choice?

Please cite verses on this.

Those of you who are prima scripura can play along

Oh, what about birth control that works as an abortificient? Or the IUD that prevents implantation?

only the CATHOLIC church has a strong stance on issues regarding morality others are just fence sitters or they play it by ear.

 

[cath2lic4ever]

Or… the pushing of them farther away.

“Win an argument, lose a soul.” Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.

Doesn’t sound so simple to me.

at this point in time…it’s either black or white, cannot afford any grays on matters regarding morals. GOD bless & prayers to all!

 

[ralphinal]

My tradition does not embrace sola scriptura. But this looks like one of Jimmy’s baiting threads.

What good can possibly be gained by such?

Now why did you have to point that out? I feel bad.

What I wanted to do was not to force people into saying that Catholics are right. Or start an argument. I want to first see how these issues are delt with. Second, I want to show a whole in sola scriptura.

On another thread, a poster said that they did not think about things beyond what Scripture said about them. When asked directly about if cloning was problematic, he said that he did not know and was not worried about the issue. This is being lukewarm. We can show that things are evil if we use Scripture, Tradition, and some common sense. God would want it that way. We live in a world where there are people creating gray areas. We must expose them for what they are. We cannot afford, as Christians, to let a man-made dogma get in the way.

Just think, in the 1970s, almost every major Christian denomination was pro-choice. The Catholic Church did not waver. Most have returned, though a few stil hold that they cannot impose this upon people. But that is what a church does. It imposes GOd’s moral code upon people. No one would leave out the Ten Commandments, yet they will not say “do not kill the unborn.”

 

[With_Questions]

only the CATHOLIC church has a strong stance on issues regarding morality others are just fence sitters or they play it by ear.

Oh really.

No other denomination on the planet earth has a strong stance on issues regarding morality.

Got it.

Now prove this statement please.

How come I don’t think you can.

Then you shouldn’t be making inflammatory, outrageous, unsubstantiated statements you can not prove.

Oh regarding the original post, I do think you can use Scriptural principles in the cases where Scripture does not get into specifics.

 

[O.S.Luke]

only the CATHOLIC church has a strong stance on issues regarding morality others are just fence sitters or they play it by ear.

That’s blatantly untrue - and has nothing to do about the doctrine of sola scriptura (which all Protestants don’t adhere to anyway).

Just inflammatory - which serves no purpose except to push away.

 

[ralphinal]

That’s blatantly untrue - and has nothing to do about the doctrine of sola scriptura (which all Protestants don’t adhere to anyway).

Just inflammatory - which serves no purpose except to push away.

I actually agree. The Stance that the Catholic Church has had on issues has less to do with where our doctrine comes from and more to do with having a central leadership. Another aspect of it is having a leadership that tends not to care about public opinion.

There have been times that other denominations have taken a hard line on issues. The Southern Baptists, for instance, have been way out front on fighting the gay marriage agenda. It is unfair to say that non-Catholic Christians have never taken a strong stance.

It is fair to say that at times they have not taken a hard enough stance.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It is fair to say that at times they have not taken a hard enough stance.

As it would be to say of Catholicism of some matters.

Lord knows that my own Methodist communion still has some repenting to do over slavery in the U.S.

 

[ralphinal]

As it would be to say of Catholicism of some matters.

Lord knows that my own Methodist communion still has some repenting to do over slavery in the U.S.

It would The Catholic Church, when it moves, tends to take a hard line. THe problem is getting it moving.

The Southern Baptists have more to do over slavery than you guys.

Do you agree that something more than sola scriptura is needed to deal with some modern problems? I know that you do not hold to it, but you can still chime in.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Do you agree that something more than sola scriptura is needed to deal with some modern problems? I know that you do not hold to it, but you can still chime in.

We Methodists are from the Anglican line… so the solas run counter to understanding Scripture through the lenses of tradition, reason, and experience.

All problems are “modern” problems when they happen in the here-and-now. I suspect Christians of 500, 1000, and 1500 years ago said, “I don’t think the biblical writers ever thought [insert here] would be a problem to wrestle with.”

 

[ralphinal]

We Methodists are from the Anglican line… so the solas run counter to understanding Scripture through the lenses of tradition, reason, and experience.

All problems are “modern” problems when they happen in the here-and-now. I suspect Christians of 500, 1000, and 1500 years ago said, “I don’t think the biblical writers ever thought [insert here] would be a problem to wrestle with.”

I would not disagree.

What is the answer?

 

[O.S.Luke]

I don’t think sola scriptura is very helpful, personally. Prima scriptura certainly gives you historical and theological framework. But I don’t think God gave us a mind, reason, and the ability to discern of the Holy Spirit for nothing.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t think sola scriptura is very helpful, personally. Prima scriptura certainly gives you historical and theological framework. But I don’t think God gave us a mind, reason, and the ability to discern of the Holy Spirit for nothing.

So what is ya’ll’s take on human cloning?

Abortifcient birth control and IUDs?

Care of the earth?

 

[cath2lic4ever]

Oh really.

No other denomination on the planet earth has a strong stance on issues regarding morality.

Got it.

Now prove this statement please.

How come I don’t think you can.

Then you shouldn’t be making inflammatory, outrageous, unsubstantiated statements you can not prove.

Oh regarding the original post, I do think you can use Scriptural principles in the cases where Scripture does not get into specifics.

ok. please educate me on which other denomination has a strong stance on morals issues such as euthanasia, abortion, same sex marriage, human cloning, poverty, human rights abuses, relativism, embryonic stem cell research and lot more that this generation faces. so far, the only one i see sticking it’s neck out on matters like these is the CATHOLIC church. please don’t be offended but really i haven’t seen any tom, **** and harry ministries tackle this issues head-on (except abortion). btw, to stay on topic on the changing times and sola scriptura. scripture needs tradition big time to address these issues that’s why i consider it flawed. GOD bless & prayers to all!

 

[O.S.Luke]

So what is ya’ll’s take on human cloning?

*(1) We call for a ban on all human cloning, including the cloning of human embryos. This would include all projects, privately or governmentally funded, that are intended to advance human cloning. Transcending our concerns with embryo wastage are a number of other unresolved and barely explored concerns with substantial social and theological ramifications: use or abuse of people, exploitation of women, tearing of the fabric of the family, the compromising of human distinctiveness, the lessening of genetic diversity, the direction of research and development being controlled by corporate profit and/or personal gain, and the invasion of privacy. These unresolved concerns generate significant distrust and fear in the general public.

(2) We call for a ban on therapeutic, medical, research, and commercial procedures which generate waste embryos. The methods of concurrent research protocols in cloning necessitate the production of excess or “waste embryos,” which are ultimately destroyed.

(3) We commit to the widespread discussion of issues related to cloning in public forums, including United Methodist schools, seminaries, hospitals, and churches. Given the profound theological and moral implications, the imperfection of human knowledge, and the tremendous risks and social benefits, we urge that there be a moratorium on cloning-related research until these issues can be discussed fully by both the general public including significant participation from communities of faith, as well as by experts in agricultural and biological science, public policy, ethics, theology, law, and medicine, including genetics and genetic counseling. The psychological and social effects of cloning on individuals, families, parental relationships, and the larger society should be fully discussed. Those presently affected by in vitro fertilization, surrogacy, artificial insemination, and other reproduction technologies should be consulted to provide insight into some related psychological and social issues.

(4) We call on all nations to ban human cloning and to identify appropriate government agencies to enforce the ban. Appropriate social and governmental bodies must monitor and guide research and developments in the field. Concern for profit and commercial advantage should be balanced by consideration for individual rights, the interest of wide constituencies, and the common good of future generations.

ADOPTED 2000

See *Social Principles, United Methodist Book of Discipline, ¶ 162M.

Abortifcient birth control and IUDs?

The only statement on birth control is the following:
We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. ¶161K

Care of the earth?

¶160 All creation is the Lord’s, and we are responsible for the ways we use and abuse it. Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God’s creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings. God has granted us stewardship of creation. We should meet these stewardship duties through acts of loving care and respect. Economic, political, social, and technological developments have increased our human numbers, and lengthened and enriched our lives. However, these developments have led to regional defoliation, dramatic extinction of species, massive human suffering, overpopulation, and misuse and overconsumption of natural and nonrenewable resources, particularly by industrialized societies. This continued course of action jeopardizes the natural heritage that God has entrusted to all generations. Therefore, let us recognize the responsibility of the church and its members to place a high priority on changes in economic, political, social, and technological lifestyles to support a more ecologically equitable and sustainable world leading to a higher quality of life for all of God’s creation.

 

[ralphinal]

*(1) We call for a ban on all human cloning, including the cloning of human embryos. This would include all projects, privately or governmentally funded, that are intended to advance human cloning. Transcending our concerns with embryo wastage are a number of other unresolved and barely explored concerns with substantial social and theological ramifications: use or abuse of people, exploitation of women, tearing of the fabric of the family, the compromising of human distinctiveness, the lessening of genetic diversity, the direction of research and development being controlled by corporate profit and/or personal gain, and the invasion of privacy. These unresolved concerns generate significant distrust and fear in the general public.

(2) We call for a ban on therapeutic, medical, research, and commercial procedures which generate waste embryos. The methods of concurrent research protocols in cloning necessitate the production of excess or “waste embryos,” which are ultimately destroyed.

(3) We commit to the widespread discussion of issues related to cloning in public forums, including United Methodist schools, seminaries, hospitals, and churches. Given the profound theological and moral implications, the imperfection of human knowledge, and the tremendous risks and social benefits, we urge that there be a moratorium on cloning-related research until these issues can be discussed fully by both the general public including significant participation from communities of faith, as well as by experts in agricultural and biological science, public policy, ethics, theology, law, and medicine, including genetics and genetic counseling. The psychological and social effects of cloning on individuals, families, parental relationships, and the larger society should be fully discussed. Those presently affected by in vitro fertilization, surrogacy, artificial insemination, and other reproduction technologies should be consulted to provide insight into some related psychological and social issues.

(4) We call on all nations to ban human cloning and to identify appropriate government agencies to enforce the ban. Appropriate social and governmental bodies must monitor and guide research and developments in the field. Concern for profit and commercial advantage should be balanced by consideration for individual rights, the interest of wide constituencies, and the common good of future generations.

ADOPTED 2000

See *Social Principles, United Methodist Book of Discipline, ¶ 162M.

The only statement on birth control is the following:
We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. ¶161K

¶160 All creation is the Lord’s, and we are responsible for the ways we use and abuse it. Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God’s creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings. God has granted us stewardship of creation. We should meet these stewardship duties through acts of loving care and respect. Economic, political, social, and technological developments have increased our human numbers, and lengthened and enriched our lives. However, these developments have led to regional defoliation, dramatic extinction of species, massive human suffering, overpopulation, and misuse and overconsumption of natural and nonrenewable resources, particularly by industrialized societies. This continued course of action jeopardizes the natural heritage that God has entrusted to all generations. Therefore, let us recognize the responsibility of the church and its members to place a high priority on changes in economic, political, social, and technological lifestyles to support a more ecologically equitable and sustainable world leading to a higher quality of life for all of God’s creation.

Thank you. As a Methodist, I knew that you had something written down. I am waiting for the Calvinists and such to repsond.

When did the Methodist Church go anti-abortion?

 

[O.S.Luke]

When did the Methodist Church go anti-abortion?

Contrary to popular belief, the Methodist Church never stopped being anti-abortion, though factions within it did.

As stated earlier, abortion cannot be justified as:

• a means of birth control
• a means of gender selection

The UMC also opposes late-term D&E.

As you can see, there are very, very few instances where the UMC justifies abortion. It is a very strong statement, in my opinion.

 

[justasking4]

Ok, so you sola sctiptura folks, help us out.

Human cloning, acceptable or not?

Is it a sin not to care for the environment?

Allowing someone to die by with holding medical care? Food and water? Even if it is their choice?

Please cite verses on this.

Those of you who are prima scripura can play along

Oh, what about birth control that works as an abortificient? Or the IUD that prevents implantation?

Since Sola Scriptura deals with doctrine and practices has the catholic church defined their own doctrine along these questions?

 

[With_Questions]

ok. please educate me on which other denomination has a strong stance on morals issues such as euthanasia, abortion, same sex marriage, human cloning, poverty, human rights abuses, relativism, embryonic stem cell research and lot more that this generation faces. so far, the only one i see sticking it’s neck out on matters like these is the CATHOLIC church. please don’t be offended but really i haven’t seen any tom, **** and harry ministries tackle this issues head-on (except abortion). btw, to stay on topic on the changing times and sola scriptura. scripture needs tradition big time to address these issues that’s why i consider it flawed. GOD bless & prayers to all!

Since you are the one making the assertion, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that no other denomination has an equivalent stance on moral issues.

And I would have to ask whose moral issues are to be included and excluded here? I ask this because I know of denominations that say the Catholic church compromises on their favorite moral issues…moral issues like drinking, smoking, gambling, swearing, etc.

And btw on your list of your favorite moral issues, I know several churches that would be in agreement.