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OraLabora
Guest
Not for the Propers!
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DBRANDT
Guest
Goodness, I’m killin myself laughing at this. I can’t sing a lick but I could chant when I was a cloistered nun. Brings back fond memories. Thank you for that.
po18guy
Well-known member
For all of his amazing intellect, I do not believe that Albert Einstein ever chanted. The lowest, most humble of monks excel at it. Sometimes, being a music major reveals only that you have majored in a limited aspect of music.
The structural differences you note are those which exist between earthly and heavenly song; between mind and heart.
The structural differences you note are those which exist between earthly and heavenly song; between mind and heart.
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If you are referring to congregational singing then I tend to agree with you. My point about maintaining pitch from the harmony was more directed toward choir members who are used to singing hymns in 4 (or more) part harmony.SMHW:
I respectfully disagree. I remember my Godmother complaining about the overbearing harmony because it confused her and hid the melody.
Plus, for decades, I have noticed that, the stronger the harmony, the less the people sing - I can see why: in some places, the harmony is sung louder than the melody.
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otjm
Guest
Some are familiar with the CD Chant by the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos. Let’s consider that excellent (and aficionados are free to disagree).
Decades ago, while in college seminary, I was part of a schola who cut a record of chant. While we might not quite have made it to the level of the above Benedictines, we were led by a Benedictine monk who was no slouch whatsoever. He knew far more about chant than the average choir director in fact I would wager he knew more than 95% of choir directors.
Both recordings were done in churches with an element of echo, or what I have heard referred to as “hang time”.
The vast majority of churches do not exhibit such, which in itself, IMHO, is a significant element lacking. Then, again, I am used to monk choirs.
I admit a preference to male voices as opposed to female voices, simply as that is what I am most used to; both can be excellent. That is simply a matter of personal preference.
And I am simply not used to mixed choirs; that works really well if one is singing multi part harmony, but that is not within the perimeters of of chant.
You will have to excuse me as I am no musician, so I lack some terminology; but I have heard choirs which do not understand the dynamics of chant; it is a tad bit more than simply hitting a note. And taken beyond that, I seriously doubt there exists a parish which has even the faintest clue as to the dynamics; so chant performed correctly - meaning with the dynamics as well as on key is simply beyond them.
that leaves it up to a choir. I have heard one in my area; and while they sing Gregorian chant with a mixed choir - meaning tenors, baritones and bass as well as the range of female voices, one might note that correctly done, all voices should be in the same (what, register?). Granted the above which I do not like - mixed voices, there was likely no one in the choir who did not have professional voice training, and it resembled a concert. So they were professional and had a choir director who understood the dynamics; I would rate them between good and excellent (as personal opinion gets in my way there).
I also heard a choir which will remain anonymous, who did things to chant that, to put it politely, slaughtered it. They were not even all on key, and didn’t have the faintest idea of the dynamics. Our children’s choir in grad school (back in the 1950’s) did far better - but certainly not excellent.
All of which can be picked apart and criticized; some people give kudos to “effort”. Obviously, I don’t.
I agree that God does not call the faithful to sing excellently. However, I pray to be spared their effort. Again, IMHO, chant reasonably well done is not within the grasp of most of the faithful.
Decades ago, while in college seminary, I was part of a schola who cut a record of chant. While we might not quite have made it to the level of the above Benedictines, we were led by a Benedictine monk who was no slouch whatsoever. He knew far more about chant than the average choir director in fact I would wager he knew more than 95% of choir directors.
Both recordings were done in churches with an element of echo, or what I have heard referred to as “hang time”.
The vast majority of churches do not exhibit such, which in itself, IMHO, is a significant element lacking. Then, again, I am used to monk choirs.
I admit a preference to male voices as opposed to female voices, simply as that is what I am most used to; both can be excellent. That is simply a matter of personal preference.
And I am simply not used to mixed choirs; that works really well if one is singing multi part harmony, but that is not within the perimeters of of chant.
You will have to excuse me as I am no musician, so I lack some terminology; but I have heard choirs which do not understand the dynamics of chant; it is a tad bit more than simply hitting a note. And taken beyond that, I seriously doubt there exists a parish which has even the faintest clue as to the dynamics; so chant performed correctly - meaning with the dynamics as well as on key is simply beyond them.
that leaves it up to a choir. I have heard one in my area; and while they sing Gregorian chant with a mixed choir - meaning tenors, baritones and bass as well as the range of female voices, one might note that correctly done, all voices should be in the same (what, register?). Granted the above which I do not like - mixed voices, there was likely no one in the choir who did not have professional voice training, and it resembled a concert. So they were professional and had a choir director who understood the dynamics; I would rate them between good and excellent (as personal opinion gets in my way there).
I also heard a choir which will remain anonymous, who did things to chant that, to put it politely, slaughtered it. They were not even all on key, and didn’t have the faintest idea of the dynamics. Our children’s choir in grad school (back in the 1950’s) did far better - but certainly not excellent.
All of which can be picked apart and criticized; some people give kudos to “effort”. Obviously, I don’t.
I agree that God does not call the faithful to sing excellently. However, I pray to be spared their effort. Again, IMHO, chant reasonably well done is not within the grasp of most of the faithful.
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OraLabora
Guest
This is an important point. The key element in chant is that the piece being sung sound like only one voice is signing it. If someone’s voice stands out, then it’s wrong, This is easier said than done. Most chant, except some hymns and sequences, isn’t metered. It is free-flowing. There is only one way for a schola to develop a voice, and that is to sing together for a very long time, and practice. I need to adapt to two voices really, the schola I sing with, and the abbey’s monks.
It is also easy to “hammer” chant, that is chant each note in staccato style. The notes should blend smoothly into each other. Also, quite apart from the main melody, there is a sort of “super-melody” called “Artis-thesis”. In scientific jargon, a long-wavelength carrier waveform on which is superimposed a short-wavelength waveform.
It’s why the assembly will almost never sing the Gregorian propers of the Mass (this gradual even has a change of key for the verse):
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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EnglishTeacher
Guest
I think those who say chant is easy and those who say it is difficult may be talking about two different types of chant (or should I say two different levels, maybe?). There is an easier type of chant that the congregation naturally sings along with, such as when the priest chants a line and the congregation chants back the response. There are also some parts of the Mass often set to a simple chant that the congregation easily learns, such as the Agnus Dei from Missa 18.
Gregorian Chant from the Gregorian Missal is quite difficult though. Most experienced musicians find it challenging, and it requires practice even for a good choir/schola.
Gregorian Chant from the Gregorian Missal is quite difficult though. Most experienced musicians find it challenging, and it requires practice even for a good choir/schola.
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EnglishTeacher
Guest
Yes, I agree. There’s no way a typical congregation is going to be to look at something like this and sing along, unless they have heard it many times before. (though of course this isn’t intended to be sung by the congregation, anyway).
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Erikaspirit16
Guest
Gee, I’ve lived 72 years and never went to a Mass where they sang the propers. What have I been missing?
I think music “experts” have been weighing in with music notation I’ve never seen or heard of and stuff about different “types” of chant, etc. etc. etc. etc.
This is all missing the point. The point is simple: Music experts, even if you include those who can actually sing, are a small percentage of the population. If you want to have music at Mass that excludes the vast majority of the attendees, then by all means keep doing what you’re doing–contemporary “hymns.” For example at my own church last Sunday they sang at least two songs I had never heard before. Surprise!!! the congregation couldn’t / didn’t sing along. Can we spell e-l-i-t-i-s-m? What happened to the Vat.II ideal of “active participation” (vs. performance by an “expert”)? Out the window.
Again, all those who advocate contemporary church music and / or complicated (I’m sure there’s a technical term for it, but that will do) chant, please take up my challenge. Go sit in the pews and count the nearest 10 people around you when there is singing: how many actually sing? If it’s not 10 out of 10, it’s not working.
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OraLabora
Guest
I think that expecting the Gregorian Propers at every parish church is unrealistic. Even some settings of the ordinary are beyond reach. The Graduale Simplex was conceived for that reason, to make chant accessible to less experienced choirs.
People also confuse “pride of place”, which Gregorian chant is meant to be, with every place, every time. The full Gregorian repertoire is the stuff of highly trained choirs and scholas like in monasteries or the Vatican. Some amateur choirs like ours can pull it off with training and effort. We sing the above Gradual every year at Holy Week. But, even after 20 years of existence, there are some pieces beyond our skills.
Projects like the Simple English Propers (I wish we had the equivalent in French) do offer some hope for participatory chant. And to preserve the Latin/Greek tradition, the simpler Mass settings are certainly doable.
I agree with some modern hymns being un-singable. Same issue for us in French.
I’m fortunate that I do hear the full Latin Propers every Sunday and Wednesday, because I live near a Benedictine monastery. Few have the chance except in those places with trained scholas, most often amateurs willing to invest time and effort into learning.
People also confuse “pride of place”, which Gregorian chant is meant to be, with every place, every time. The full Gregorian repertoire is the stuff of highly trained choirs and scholas like in monasteries or the Vatican. Some amateur choirs like ours can pull it off with training and effort. We sing the above Gradual every year at Holy Week. But, even after 20 years of existence, there are some pieces beyond our skills.
Projects like the Simple English Propers (I wish we had the equivalent in French) do offer some hope for participatory chant. And to preserve the Latin/Greek tradition, the simpler Mass settings are certainly doable.
I agree with some modern hymns being un-singable. Same issue for us in French.
I’m fortunate that I do hear the full Latin Propers every Sunday and Wednesday, because I live near a Benedictine monastery. Few have the chance except in those places with trained scholas, most often amateurs willing to invest time and effort into learning.
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AlmaRedemptorisMater
Guest
Here is a clip of our Schola which just formed about a year ago. Chant starts around the 15 sec mark.
We have settled into english Propers. Obviously we are not professional. In fact, most of us have ZERO musical training, but I think we’re getting there!
You probably have heard way better. But anyone reading this, chant CAN be done even by those who have no background in it!
We have settled into english Propers. Obviously we are not professional. In fact, most of us have ZERO musical training, but I think we’re getting there!
You probably have heard way better. But anyone reading this, chant CAN be done even by those who have no background in it!
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jeannetherese
Guest
Could you upload your clip again?
I’ve clicked on it and it is not playing for me.
Thanks! May God bless you and your schola.
Amen.
I’ve clicked on it and it is not playing for me.
Thanks! May God bless you and your schola.
Amen.
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otjm
Guest
I think the first to which you refer is called Plain Chant. Gregorian Chant it is not.
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otjm
Guest
I second that. Couldn’t get it to budge.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Agreed. The vast majority of the faithful do not sing to contemporary music.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
For me, too.
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OraLabora
Guest
It’s the opposite for me. I find the larger notes and the 4-bar staff make it easier to read chant notation than modern notation.
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DeniseNY
Guest
It’s commonly shorter
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Peeps
Guest
Thank you.
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Peeps
Guest
Do you have a conductor who is trained in music?
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