Chaput article (Denver Post)

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Richardols:
I don’t vote for all Democrats, just those who I believe represent the right values. Here, in Arkansas, for example, I voted for Senator Pryor, whose pro-life attitude is the same as Bush’s - “three exceptions.” And, I can even contemplate an election where no Democrat here would be suitable, forcing me to sit out the election. And, I do vote for the occasional local Republican candidate, mostly on the basis of a personal relationship. But there is a difference between neglecting my allegiance and switching it. I am tempermentally unable to contemplate becoming a Republican. Thanks for your sincere thought, however.
Senator Pryor words are turning out to be only that - just words. Watch his votes on judicial nominees, actions speak louder than words.

I too once believed Senator Pryor was pro-life. If anti-abortion with the usual exceptions is “pro-life”, Pryor is “mixed-choice”.
 
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Hildebrand:
You still refuse to acknowledge the Church’s stance on capital punishment. You interpret that CCC quote as meaning the Church is opposed to capital punishment.
I’ve already said that I know that the Church tolerates the death penalty, but per the CCC under such a narrow circumstance as to make it effectively nonexistent. I see that as saying that the Church must acknowledge a right to capital punishment, but is effectively opposed to capital punishment.
Do you know who Cardinal Dulles is? He is one of the best theologians of the Catholic Church and is aware of more things than you give him credit for.
Sure. I went to Fordham University and have even met him on several occasions.
Cardinal Dulles writes that: "The Pope and the bishops, using their prudential judgment, have concluded that in contemporary society, at least in countries like our own, the death penalty ought not to be invoked, because, on balance, it does more harm than good."
Which is less than a hairsbreadth away from being overtly opposed to capital punishment. Just as I believe.
I know of no one on this forum who is excited about “the prospects of putting someone to death”.
In your personal acquaintanceship, okay.
 
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Hildebrand:
If anti-abortion with the usual exceptions is “pro-life”, Pryor is “mixed-choice”.
Sure, but his is the same position Bush takes. I agree it’s not truly pro-life, but go talk to the Bushies on this Forum. They consider Bush pro-life. So, Pryor is good enough.
 
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Hildebrand:
Watch his votes on judicial nominees, actions speak louder than words.
One can vote against Bush’s nominees for reasons other than their position on abortion.
 
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Richardols:
One can vote against Bush’s nominees for reasons other than their position on abortion.
If one keeps voting Democratic justifying it for whatever reason the same characters will be voted in and we will have:
  1. Same sex marriages
  2. Homosexuality protected as an alternative lifestyle and sold to our kids
  3. God out of just about everywhere
  4. Culture of Death
  5. more of Planned Parenthood
  6. Euthansia
  7. Designer Babies
  8. Persecution (hate speech bills)
  9. Cloning
    10 Embryonic baby harvesting
Just to name a few. Is this what you really want? If not then you have to stop voting for the party of death at all levels.

Can’t you see this?
 
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buffalo:
If not then you have to stop voting for the party of death at all levels.
You are correct, and I’ve never voted the straight ticket in any election. Though voting the party ticket might have been an option years ago, it no longer is, and candidates have to be individually evaluated.
 
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Richardols:
Sure, but his is the same position Bush takes. I agree it’s not truly pro-life, but go talk to the Bushies on this Forum. They consider Bush pro-life. So, Pryor is good enough.
Sorry I was not clear.

I’ll do it logically.

For abortion:

Premise 1: “Pro-life” can = pro-life “with exceptions”.

Premise 2: Bush’s position and policy = pro-life “with exceptions”

Logical conclusion: Bush = “pro-life”

Premise 1: “Pro-life” can = pro-life “with exceptions”.

Premise 2: Pryor’s policy is not pro-life “with exceptions” because he voted 40% of the time with Planned Parenthood.

Logical conclusion: "Pryor does not = “pro-life”



That is why I said Pryor is “Mixed Choice” (as the NOW gals call these certain politicans). Pryor is certainly not pro-life.
 
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amantoan:
It amazes me how the media cannot see that orthodox Catholicism doesn’t fit the model of American two party politics. I mean, didn’t we just cover this ground when John Paul II died? I kept hearing, “John Paul is an enigma, he opposes abortion AND the death penalty,” and other such nonsense. Don’t journalists do research anymore? Being Catholic really isn’t about being liberal or conservative, those labels, as they are used in American politics, simply don’t fit.
It is not that they don’t do research, it is that they are blinded by very ingrained suppositions. And sadly, they are not alone. I don’t think that many people are really able to separate the two ends of the spectrum; they see most things in a much more black and white perspective than they do in shades of grey.

People assume, because the tendency is to buy into one end or the other, that if you are liberal that means “x” and if you are conservative that means “y”; and they prize consistency (or what they perceive as consistency) much more than they prize the full Gospel message. They pick and choose what they consider to be the Gospel message, and reject what they don’t like.

In addition to that, there is a great mindset of independence, especially in the uS, which infects the discussion.
 
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Richardols:
One can vote against Bush’s nominees for reasons other than their position on abortion.
What was Senator Mark Pryor’s problem with pro-life Catholic nominee Attorney General/now Justice Pryor?

Senator Mark Pryor voted twice to filibuster his nomination. Once a deal was brokered, Mark Pryor voted against him on the final floor vote. Now tell me what is so wrong with pro-life Catholic William Pryor that your senator decided to filibuster his nomination?

I was shocked when I found out Mark Pryor was apart of Tom Daschle’s filibuster efforts. I actually believed him when he claimed to be pro-life with exceptions back in 2002.
 
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buffalo:
One thing to not lose site of - abortion has killed over 47,000,000 innocents, the death penalty a few innocents and perhaps 1,000 guilty over the last 40 years.
Some were guilty, some weren’t. Most probably were. But given the fact that in theory our system of justice is designed to ferret out the truth, and in practice the system results in winning at any cost, one should be at least a bit circumspect when one addresses the death penalty.
 
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Hildebrand:
What was Senator Mark Pryor’s problem with pro-life Catholic nominee Attorney General/now Justice Pryor?
I believe that Justice Pryor was seen as being on the extreme right-wing by the Senator. Just being a Catholic and being pro-life doesn’t necessarily outweigh one’s other perceived faults.
 
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Richardols:
I believe that Justice Pryor was seen as being on the extreme right-wing by the Senator. Just being a Catholic and being pro-life doesn’t necessarily outweigh one’s other perceived faults.
What were his “other” faults.

List them please. Why would Senator Pryor filibuster (not just vote against him) Justice Pryor? How bad is pro-life Catholic Justice Pryor to warrant a filibuster?
 
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InnocentIII:
May I ask how you would define an orthodox liberal as opposed to orthodox conservative?? I would be interested to see where we differ if we are both orthodox? For instance, if you mean that you are orthodox in religion but liberal in politics, then I see no distinction as far as the faith is concerned. On the other hand if you mean orthodox and liberal in religion I think tehre is a problem as orthodox means accepting the teachings of the Church in their fullness and we can only disagree by one or the other rejecting some or all of those teachings, and that would make one of us a heretic I think.
One can be orthodox and either liberal or conservative in faith, as the orthodox applies to the doctrinal content, but the liberal or conservative view applies to praxis, and most usually to items or issues that are disciplinary.
 
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Richardols:
Agreed. And, I agree that Catholics have historically always preferred the party that was most closely concerned with social justice, whether here or in your country. Catholic, coming as most have from the poor immigrant groups, previously have never been comfortable with the Establishment.
That has many colors to it, and in particular whether or not the government was aligned with, or as in England, synonomous with, the Church, be it the Catholic Church, the Lutheran, the Anglican, or some other Protestant group.
 
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Hildebrand:
How bad is pro-life Catholic Justice Pryor to warrant a filibuster?
You phrase that as if the only quality the man has is being a pro-life Catholic. BFD. I, too, am a pro-life Catholic, and an attorney. Does that qualify me for the federal appellate bench?

There are other reasons why Pryor or I may be unfit for the bench, and in Pryor’s case, those other reasons may be the reasons for Sen. Pryor’s disapproval of Justice Pryor.
 
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Richardols:
You phrase that as if the only quality the man has is being a pro-life Catholic. BFD. I, too, am a pro-life Catholic, and an attorney. Does that qualify me for the federal appellate bench?

There are other reasons why Pryor or I may be unfit for the bench, and in Pryor’s case, those other reasons may be the reasons for Sen. Pryor’s disapproval of Justice Pryor.
He is also opposed to so-called “gay rights”.

http://www.ppaction.org/ppaeo/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=3684055

Sandra Day O’Connor supported Pryor’s position on employees not being able to sue states and thus she would have a view that “Endangers the Rights of People with Disabilities”… would Democrats filibuster Sandra Day O’Connor if she was re-nominated?

http://www.bazelon.org/takeaction/alerts/6-09-03pryor.htm

http://www.dickinson.edu/~rudaleva/court00.html

This is all a smokescreen over the issue of abortion.

This was not what Chaput was talking about when he denounced heartless conservatives.
 
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fix:
Who is against social justice? I mean defined as the Church defines it, not as liberal democrats define it.
I was going to say this, but you beat me to the punch. There is this odd notion that one cannot be doctrinally/dogmatically orthodox and still concerned with social justice. I’m sure that Archbishop Chaput puts that idea to rest. I wish they would elevate him, but leave him in Denver. Other dioceses could stand a red hat and it seems unfair to deprive the people of Denver of such an excellent shepherd. I reckon that’s the Holy Father’s business, though.
 
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