Charasmatic

[ALLGIRLS]

OP,

Was it a “Life in the Spirit” seminar? We had that at our parish during Lent. Yes, it would be out of a lot of people’s comfort zone, and not for everyone, but I don’t believe there’s anything “wrong” with it. Our new (well, we’ve had him a year now) Pastor has been involved in it for many years, and he’s very orthodox, came in and cleaned up all the Liturgical abuses that our former pastor had allowed (including liturgical dancing-what another poster referred to as “color guard” lol), plus, our Bishop, Robert Carlson, VERY orthodox, also approves. And, like others have mentioned, the Vatican is fine with the Charismatic Renewal. What’s great about our Church is that we have these different expressions, Charismatic, Traditional, Eastern, “regular” Novus Ordo, etc., so there is something for everyone, but we’re all still Catholic and united in the Eucharist and with the Bishops and Pope.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[gtrenewed]

a study of Paul’s relationship with the Corinthians is that he often admonishing them for their practices and working to get things right. The full section on the gifts of the Spirit seems to be just this.
He starts out talking about the gifts, all the others are listed before tongues , which means he sees it as the least of the gifts. He does say he speaks in tongues then adds his buts, prophecy and spreading the word understandably is more important. Chapter 14 makes this very clear.
I think the same admonishment needs to given to the Charismatic renewal, it’s focus on the least of the gifts keeps them from doing greater things.
I don’t have a bias against the movement. When a teenager I was involved with it, back in the seventies, but it was much different. It helped shape by beliefs and my love for the church because it showed me there was a different way to worship than the more traditional style.
I didn’t revisit it until a few years ago, and it is now nothing like the one I had loved. It has turned into a in your face renewal, and if anyone questions it, Like myself , then the answer is you just don’t get it. I have been to a Life in the Spirit retreat and found it a real turn off. Since that time I had been looking for answers, and found them in the same letters that Paul described the gifts.
As an Deacon, I have tried to come from this as unbiased as possible. I have prayed about it, and yes I have had my own encounters with the Holy Spirit, receiving His gifts, but not through “baptism in the Spirit” through personal reflection and prayer, as well as in the sacraments of Confirmation and Holy Orders.

The Charismatic Renewal does not focus on tongues - it is the critics that focus on tongues. You did likewise. To many it is the first sign of the release of the Holy Spirit just like Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. To others, it is a renewed faith in the gifts of the Spirit are active in our lives.

I respect the path you have taken to become a Deacon but you are not capable of being unbiased because of your stated history. Yes, we encounter Christ in every way as a Catholic but the renewal rekindles the promise of Jesus that we will be filled with power to be a witness.

In a community of Charismatics the focus is on all the gifts for the good of the brethren which reveals the goodness of God to the world. You saw the renewal as a youth, much more open and now many years later you have many more experiences that can insulate simple faith. We Charismatics have taken many years of criticisms which has had a defensive effect on some. The renewal is about the release of what the Holy Spirit has given us. If your focus is on the people you can be disappointed. It is like our defensive position when someone brings up the clergy scandals. The sin of a few does not negate the priesthood, and we only focus on it when it is brought up.

The Charismatic Renewal needs mature leadership. You could lead but not as one biased but as one involved. We very much are subject to our respective Bishops, whether they are Charismatic or not; but to have a fully Charismatic deacon would be a blessing to that group. That is between you and God - I’m just saying.

 

[gtrenewed]

I heard from many theologians that the “tounues” is not angelic speaking. In my opinion it’s just blah blah blah. The mind can be very powerful, convince it enough that you are a chicken and you will literally (in your mind) be a chicken. This is the same as those who “claim” to be possesed, it all in the mind. The mind triggers the appropriate responce, there have been many studies on this. Sad I don’t have the sources

Paul made the distinction by saying that this praying type of tongue is just between God and the one praying. That is opposed to the tongue that can be understood by a person of that language.

That one scripture is just one of many that validates the personal prayer tongue. You are entitled to your opinion but I will believe the Word of God. Scripture says that to a carnal man the things of God seem foolish or blah, blah, blah. If you would approach it out of faith the outcome would be different.

Scripture says that we must have faith to please God by believing that He is and that He is rewarder of those that seek Him. Also, He will give us the Holy Spirit if we ask, He will not give us a serpent if we ask for a fish.

Your arguement pits science against faith. By following your reasoning, we would not even believe in God because of the power of the mind. If you are not inclined to seek God this way, God Bless and see you at Mass.

 

[FAB]

The Charismatic Renewal does not focus on tongues - it is the critics that focus on tongues. You did likewise. To many it is the first sign of the release of the Holy Spirit just like Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. To others, it is a renewed faith in the gifts of the Spirit are active in our lives.

I respect the path you have taken to become a Deacon but you are not capable of being unbiased because of your stated history. Yes, we encounter Christ in every way as a Catholic but the renewal rekindles the promise of Jesus that we will be filled with power to be a witness.

In a community of Charismatics the focus is on all the gifts for the good of the brethren which reveals the goodness of God to the world. You saw the renewal as a youth, much more open and now many years later you have many more experiences that can insulate simple faith. We Charismatics have taken many years of criticisms which has had a defensive effect on some. The renewal is about the release of what the Holy Spirit has given us. If your focus is on the people you can be disappointed. It is like our defensive position when someone brings up the clergy scandals. The sin of a few does not negate the priesthood, and we only focus on it when it is brought up.

The Charismatic Renewal needs mature leadership. You could lead but not as one biased but as one involved. We very much are subject to our respective Bishops, whether they are Charismatic or not; but to have a fully Charismatic deacon would be a blessing to that group. That is between you and God - I’m just saying.

I have worked with a Chrismatic priest for the past 4 years, my critique comes from personal experiance, not so much with him, but with Chrismatics, who’s main focus always seem speaking in tongues and laying on of hands.

The issue is they never seem to get past that point to truely discover the gifts they have been given. The language used the the renewal is about the release of the Holy Spirit, were is he trapped? The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not contained some how, they are given to all who are confirmed. It is only through prayer and dicernment that one truely discovers the gifts they were given not only through confirmation , but also in baptism. What I have seen with Chrismatics is they seem to want to stay on some basic level of enthusiam, never really finding their true chrisms.

Acts 10: 45, the Holy Spirit was poured out to the gentiles, he was not some how release, Cornelius vision of the angel was after prayer and faithfullness.

I pray daily for the guidance from God through the Holy Spirit in my ministry. I know that he guides me. I also know that the Chrisms use have come through prayer study and meditation. The use of those Chrisms are as I said, through continuing prayer and with HIs guidance. This is what I see as a mature Chrismatic. Using the gifts , as Paul said to spead the word of Christ. My renewal is everytime I attend mass and in my daily prayer.

As I said from my first post, I have the fruits of the Chrismatic movement, it has brought many to the Lord. It is also not for everyone.

In truth, if it had not been for the fact that I was already committed to my faith, The Fire in the Spirit siminar would have driven me away. It was full of abuses and when I tried to point this out to the priest and the deacon involved, my motives were questioned. Any bias I have comes from that experiance. They reacted much as you have, you just don’t get it.
I shared my history and experiance to show that I do get it.

 

[Elizium23]

Just a point of spelling here, sorry.

Chrism is consecrated oil used in anointing for various sacraments: confirmation, baptism, holy orders.
Charisms are gifts of the Holy Spirit: speaking in tongues, interpreting, prophecy;
or distinctive marks of a religious order: for the Dominicans, their primary charism is preaching.

This thread is about the charismatic renewal and charisms sent by the Holy Spirit.

 

[gtrenewed]

I have worked with a Chrismatic priest for the past 4 years, my critique comes from personal experiance, not so much with him, but with Chrismatics, who’s main focus always seem speaking in tongues and laying on of hands. The issue is they never seem to get past that point to truely discover the gifts they have been given.

If their main emphasis is as you say then there are two possible reasons:

1. they are in the process of growing;
2. they have stagnated without leadership;

The language used the the renewal is about the release of the Holy Spirit, were is he trapped?

That language has to be used for Catholics because we have been baptized and confirmed. However, He has been trapped by a lack of faith in expressing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Once we seek this expression with faith, we become overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit, like Cornelius, and the Charisms are released. Look at it this way, we can have a safe with all kinds of riches in it but if we never go to the safe and open it, we would miss out on these riches.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not contained some how, they are given to all who are confirmed. It is only through prayer and dicernment that one truely discovers the gifts they were given not only through confirmation , but also in baptism. What I have seen with Chrismatics is they seem to want to stay on some basic level of enthusiam, never really finding their true chrisms.

As I said they are given but only activated by faith. The Charismatics I have been around were continually seeking to grow in all the gifts. You must research the Renewal outside of your local group to truly understand it.

I pray daily for the guidance from God through the Holy Spirit in my ministry. I know that he guides me. I also know that the Chrisms use have come through prayer study and meditation. The use of those Chrisms are as I said, through continuing prayer and with HIs guidance. This is what I see as a mature Chrismatic. Using the gifts , as Paul said to spead the word of Christ. My renewal is everytime I attend mass and in my daily prayer.

You are confusing personal renewal with Charismatic Renewal.

As I said from my first post, I have the fruits of the Chrismatic movement, it has brought many to the Lord. It is also not for everyone.

In truth, if it had not been for the fact that I was already committed to my faith, The Fire in the Spirit siminar would have driven me away. It was full of abuses and when I tried to point this out to the priest and the deacon involved, my motives were questioned. Any bias I have comes from that experiance. They reacted much as you have, you just don’t get it.
I shared my history and experiance to show that I do get it.

It is called “Life in the Spirit” seminar.

Obviously there has been personal insult here and we have one side of the story. However, I am always suspicious when one says they are the only ones who get it.
God Bless and peace on your journey.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Claire,
Thank you for your response but what you say has raised red flags for me.

The gifts Paul is speaking about there are those which are given to build up the church. The gift of speaking in tongues would be one of these and would be rare. It is used for communicating the word of God.
I think most charismatics feel that the gift of praying in tongues is available to those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit if they ask for this gift and are open to receive it.

So those who do not pray in tongues are not open to receiving a gift from God?

Can you show me the teaching in the Bible where it states that everyone receives this gift? The only part I know is what I stated, where Paul says that not everyone receives the same gifts.

Also if they believe in the Baptism of the Spirit how does this fit with the Creed’s “One Baptism for the remission of sins”? The term ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is an experience of the power of the Holy Spirit (whom we received in Baptism and Confirmation) becoming more active in our life as we yield to Him. It isn’t the sacrament of Baptism which is for the remission of our sins.

So those who have not received this “baptism of the Spirit” do not have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life? I have not received such a thing but I know the Holy Spirit is very active in my life.

This seems to make two classes of Catholics (Christians). Those who have had the “baptism of the Spirit” and pray in tongues and those who do not.

I have not had a good experience with this in the past. Maybe it is better that I do not attend.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Many people unfamiliar with the movement are confused about the gift/charism of tongues, what they don’t realize, is that there are two separate tongues. The tongues you are referencing in your post, are the apostolic tongues. These consist of prophecy (a message), and are either understood by others, or interpreted by others. The tongues you heard were probably prayer tongues, which frequently are sung, while apostolic tongues are spoken. If your Bishop sanctioned the event, then the Mass you attended should have been the Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo following the GIRM with several opportunities for praise prayer consisting of prayer tongues, ejaculations and acclamations. That is what a Charismatic liturgy is, the liturgy may be followed by Exposition, Benediction, Healing service, etc. Or some of the above may have preceded the Mass. The presiding priest sets the tone for when/where prayer tongues takes place.

Can you show me where this distinction between the two prayer types, what you call apostolic tongues and the private prayer in tongues, is made in the Bible.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, but is related to the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. It is an awakening of the gifts bestowed upon us when we received the Sacraments of Initiation.

I don’t understand this. Many of you have said that same thing here. You state that the “baptism of the Spirit” is not a Sacrament (of which I know) but then you go on to say (it seems to me) that it is necessary to “awaken the gifts” that one has received from the Holy Spirit. So how did these Gifts appear before the Catholic Charismatic movement came around? How do those who do not have this " baptism" yet have Gifts have them awaken?

 

[FAB]

If their main emphasis is as you say then there are two possible reasons:

1. they are in the process of growing;
2. they have stagnated without leadership;

That language has to be used for Catholics because we have been baptized and confirmed. However, He has been trapped by a lack of faith in expressing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Once we seek this expression with faith, we become overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit, like Cornelius, and the Charisms are released. Look at it this way, we can have a safe with all kinds of riches in it but if we never go to the safe and open it, we would miss out on these riches.

As I said they are given but only activated by faith. The Charismatics I have been around were continually seeking to grow in all the gifts. You must research the Renewal outside of your local group to truly understand it.

You are confusing personal renewal with Charismatic Renewal.

It is called “Life in the Spirit” seminar.

Obviously there has been personal insult here and we have one side of the story. However, I am always suspicious when one says they are the only ones who get it.
God Bless and peace on your journey.

Your response is what I have come to expect. Very often definsive.
In pointing out that there are issues with the movement. I believe it can be better than it is now and more effective. In many ways, as I pointed out it is what Paul warned against.

 

[FAB]

I don’t understand this. Many of you have said that same thing here. You state that the “baptism of the Spirit” is not a Sacrament (of which I know) but then you go on to say (it seems to me) that it is necessary to “awaken the gifts” that one has received from the Holy Spirit. So how did these Gifts appear before the Catholic Charismatic movement came around? How do those who do not have this " baptism" yet have Gifts have them awaken?

Brother, these are very good points.
The ideas expresses that somehow the Spirit is trapped and only release through “baptism in the Spirit” is a false concept. It is actually through continuing prayer and meditation that we can understand God’s plan for us through the Spirit guiding us.
“baptism in the Spirit” also bothers me because it can be seen to diminsh the true source of the Spirit’s Gifts, the sacraments.

 

[archangel04]

Brother, these are very good points.
The ideas expresses that somehow the Spirit is trapped and only release through “baptism in the Spirit” is a false concept. It is actually through continuing prayer and meditation that we can understand God’s plan for us through the Spirit guiding us.
“baptism in the Spirit” also bothers me because it can be seen to diminsh the true source of the Spirit’s Gifts, the sacraments.

That’s what I was always told! If this is not the case then really what’s the point of confirmation? According to the arguments I have read, for a person like me to truly feel and release the gifts of the Spirit I must attend some seminar? Now that is confusing.

 

[ClayPots47]

Can you show me where this distinction between the two prayer types, what you call apostolic tongues and the private prayer in tongues, is made in the Bible.

This scripture quotes were posted in the thread “Traditionalists and Charismatics” from the Traditional Catholic Forum. I am simply C&P them here with additional commentary. They have been posted many times, along with others, in many threads, on CAF.

Prayer Tongues. They are the language of Angels, the groaning of the Spirit, a language of perfect praise to God. Apostolic tongues do not praise God, and they are in a language of men, that many men, or at least one, can understand, and therefore interpret, for those who don’t. Apostolic tongues are the ones heard on Pentecost; the witnesses observing the event, heard those receiving the Holy Spirit, speak in the listeners native language. Prayer tongues were part of the Corinthian community, which the Corinthians put too much emphasis on, which Paul rebukes them for.

Acts 10 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

1 Corinthians 14 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit

1 Corinthians 13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Apostolic tongues, sometimes called Ministry Tongues. These are the prophecy tongues that teach and edify, someone must be able to understand or interpret the tongue. While Paul says that these are the more important tongues, and that he desires that more would prophecy than pray in tongues; many Charismatics and Pentecostals put too much emphasis on the prayer tongues. A good group should be maturing, and the other charisms should be apparent among the senior members who have been active in the group.

1 Corinthians 14 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Acts 19:6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied

Some people never have prayer tongues, but exhibit other charisms instead. Paul has said that he would rather see the greater gifts, than prayer tongues. The greater gifts/charisms, the apostolic ones used for ministry, are signs of a mature faith. And of course, Paul says in his famous treatise on love, that all the charisms/gifts are meaningless, if one does not have love/charity. The are gifts of service to others, prayers tongues are the gift of praise to God. Prayer tongues do not edify the community, they edify God, this is why tongues are the least of the gifts. Prayer tongues are best used for personal prayer, they should not be the emphasis of charismatic prayer assemblies. They are not a sign of holiness, not everybody receives them, and they are not the only evidence of reception of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I liken them to a Pablum given to an infant; but one must rely on more spiritual meat, and wean themselves off of the pablum. Initially, some need the pablum, some don’t.

 

[ClayPots47]

I don’t understand this. Many of you have said that same thing here. You state that the “baptism of the Spirit” is not a Sacrament (of which I know) but then you go on to say (it seems to me) that it is necessary to “awaken the gifts” that one has received from the Holy Spirit. So how did these Gifts appear before the Catholic Charismatic movement came around? How do those who do not have this " baptism" yet have Gifts have them awaken?

Well, I never said it was necessary, but rather that it is it’s purpose. so, let me let an expert from the Renewal explain it. Father Raniero Cantalamessa, The Charismatic Franciscan priest who is the official Preacher for the Papal Household, says that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for everyone, it is not limited to Charismatics and The Life in the Spirit Seminars. It is a powerful transforming experience that he says you can receive from doing the Ignation Spiritual Exercises, when making a profession of vows or promises, when recommitting oneself to Jesus Christ, in such a personal way, as to actualize the charisms and gifts received from Baptism and Confirmation, that have been dormant due to the recipient of these sacraments not being aware of them.

Some people have had this experience prior to being prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. People have attended Cursillo, or an in-depth retreat, and have had this awakening. Some call it the conversion experience, or commitment experience. Many mystics and saints have had this experience, it has different names, but it gives the same result. The Life in the Spirit Seminar is just one method of preparing and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is one among many spirituality’s in the Church. This realization of ones faith, and awakening of the charisms and gifts, is certainly not limited to Charismatics. Many people have experienced this, and never attended a Charismatic event.

Padre Pio is said to have had this occur, the very day he was confirmed; and the presence of charisms in him are now well-known, not to mention mystical phenomena. Ideally, we should all have this release happen when Confirmed, but we all don’t, because there is some spiritual impediment in our lives preventing this. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit removes this impediment, as does any deep commitment one makes to ones faith as a result of growth in personal holiness through prayer and study. I think many can p(name removed by moderator)oint a period in which we have had an intense spiritual experience, and following that, we became aware of the gifts and charisms God wished us to use, and we began to make use of them to build up and edify the Church. No Life in the Spirit Seminar and/or Baptism of the Holy Spirit was needed.

 

[ClayPots47]

Those who have “received” this gift treat it as a they have gotten some type of personal connection which is only between them and God. As Paul indicated, if the gift does not spread the word of God in an understandable way it is useless.

The movement in general has been approved, but that does not every indicate that practices in the movement should not come under review.

The problem is often a result of poor catechesis, problematic Life in the spirit Seminar used, stagnant spirituality in the prayer group, and poor leadership. Prayer groups “stuck” on personal prayer tongues, and not yielding to the greater gifts/charisms, need to review what is keeping the group from experiencing growth both personally and apostolically.

The movement has an oversight committee, with statutes approved by Pope John Paul II, who himself in approving the statutes,cautioned against abuses and inappropriate practices. Review and scrutiny should come at every level, from the diocesan bishop, the parish priests (especially the pastor), the prayer group leader(s), and the members themselves.

I think the same admonishment needs to given to the Charismatic renewal, it’s focus on the least of the gifts keeps them from doing greater things.

As an Deacon, I have tried to come from this as unbiased as possible. I have prayed about it, and yes I have had my own encounters with the Holy Spirit, receiving His gifts, but not through “baptism in the Spirit” through personal reflection and prayer, as well as in the sacraments of Confirmation and Holy Orders.

Some overemphasize prayer tongues to the exclusion of anything else. I often wonder if some become "stuck: as a result of the emotional affect of it. The greater apostolic gifts don’t have that consolation, in some prayer groups there is a tendency to stagnate and cease to grow, because one gets hung on feelings. This apparently is what happened with the Corinthian Church, which led to Paul’s famous treatise on love. Charismatics should be moving beyond the “feel good” mentality, and seek a deeper life of service.

The Charismatic Renewal has certainly gone through growing pains, and there have been some problematic bumps along the way ( often due to movement members trying to borrow from Pentecostals and Protestant Charismatics). While the Church has given the movement it’s approval and blessing, it has exercised caution as well. You don’t need to attend a Life in the Spirit Seminar and be prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, to receive and experience the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Holy spirit is one experience with many names, and many ways to experience it. Seen my post further up where I mention Father Raniero Cantalamessa stating that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for everyone, and is not exclusive to Charismatics.

 

[PodunkMommy]

A fair explanation for one who is not part of the renewal, except what I bolded and underlined. I would point you to these scriptures:

1Cor 13:1 - here St. Paul says there are two kinds of tongues - men and angels;

1Cor 14:2 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that speaks to God and not to men;

1Cor 14:4 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that edifies the one who prays in it;

From this and other scriptures we understand that there is a tongue that is a prayer language, that is different from the tongue that is in a known language.

This prayer language is what is commonly heard at Charismatic meetings. Sometimes God communicates to everyone through this private prayer language but there must be an interprettion by someone whom God has given the understanding at that time.

So this tongue, is different than the tongues at Pentecost, the tongues of being able to speak to people in their different languages? I just want to clarify this?

 

[PodunkMommy]

I don’t understand this. Many of you have said that same thing here. You state that the “baptism of the Spirit” is not a Sacrament (of which I know) but then you go on to say (it seems to me) that it is necessary to “awaken the gifts” that one has received from the Holy Spirit. So how did these Gifts appear before the Catholic Charismatic movement came around? How do those who do not have this " baptism" yet have Gifts have them awaken?

Yes, I don’t understand either. I would think that you would receive these gifts at Confirmation.

 

[PodunkMommy]

Well, I never said it was necessary, but rather that it is it’s purpose. so, let me let an expert from the Renewal explain it. Father Raniero Cantalamessa, The Charismatic Franciscan priest who is the official Preacher for the Papal Household, says that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for everyone, it is not limited to Charismatics and The Life in the Spirit Seminars. It is a powerful transforming experience that he says you can receive from doing the Ignation Spiritual Exercises, when making a profession of vows or promises, when recommitting oneself to Jesus Christ, in such a personal way, as to actualize the charisms and gifts received from Baptism and Confirmation, that have been dormant due to the recipient of these sacraments not being aware of them.

Some people have had this experience prior to being prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. People have attended Cursillo, or an in-depth retreat, and have had this awakening. Some call it the conversion experience, or commitment experience. Many mystics and saints have had this experience, it has different names, but it gives the same result. The Life in the Spirit Seminar is just one method of preparing and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is one among many spirituality’s in the Church. This realization of ones faith, and awakening of the charisms and gifts, is certainly not limited to Charismatics. Many people have experienced this, and never attended a Charismatic event.

Padre Pio is said to have had this occur, the very day he was confirmed; and the presence of charisms in him are now well-known, not to mention mystical phenomena. Ideally, we should all have this release happen when Confirmed, but we all don’t, because there is some spiritual impediment in our lives preventing this. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit removes this impediment, as does any deep commitment one makes to ones faith as a result of growth in personal holiness through prayer and study. I think many can p(name removed by moderator)oint a period in which we have had an intense spiritual experience, and following that, we became aware of the gifts and charisms God wished us to use, and we began to make use of them to build up and edify the Church. No Life in the Spirit Seminar and/or Baptism of the Holy Spirit was needed.

Interesting. What exactly is a Charasmatic Priest? I have heard that certain priest are charasmatic. What does that actually mean?

 

[ClayPots47]

So this tongue, is different than the tongues at Pentecost, the tongues of being able to speak to people in their different languages? I just want to clarify this?

The tongues of Pentecost were the Apostolic Tongues. Those present heard the tongues in their own languages, though they weren’t spoken in their own language. Prayer tongues are mostly for personal prayer, they edify God with the tongues of angels, the groanings of the Spirit. Apostolic tongues edify the Church, which is why Paul said they were the greater gift, and were to be preferred. Prayer tongues where what Paul mentioned in the Corinthian church; the Corinthians paid too much attention to these lesser tongues and Paul rebuked them for this. Sometimes there is too much focus on prayer tongues (often due to the spiritual consolation and emotionalism experienced), and the preferred gifts/charisms are not being realized. A sign of a maturing prayer group is a greater emphasis on the gifts/charisms that Paul lists as being essential to the edification of others. If the greater gifts/charisms are not being realized, and the participants spend too much time focusing on prayer tongues, the group shows serious signs of being spiritually stagnant. Which is not good. Good leaders recognize this and take steps to correct this, often revisiting the instructions on charisms given in the Life in the Spirit Seminars.

 

[ClayPots47]

Yes, I don’t understand either. I would think that you would receive these gifts at Confirmation.

You do receive them at Confirmation (and at Baptism), but for various reasons, they are not fully utilized. See my reply to ByzCath above, where I explain this. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the only way to release the gifts of Baptism and Confirmation.

Interesting. What exactly is a Charasmatic Priest? I have heard that certain priest are charasmatic. What does that actually mean?

A reference to a Charismatic priest can refer to two things; a) that he has a charismatic personality, outgoing, upbeat, a good speaker. b) A priest who has taken a Life in the Spirit seminar and been prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and exhibits various charisms in his ministry. He might oversee prayer groups, conduct liturgy for Charismatics, conduct healing Masses, serve the Renewal in some capacity, such as diocesan liaison, diocesan committee, national committee, Vatican liaison, etc. These priests are part of the Renewal, and serve the Renewal and the Church.

Father Cantalamessa is very active in the Renewal, outside of preaching for the Papal Household, he conducts speaking engagements and retreats/days of recollection, and Charismatic liturgies. I had the privilege of attending an event with him, incredible priest and a fantastic speaker. For many years, Monsignor Vincent Walsh served the Archdiocese of Philadelphia as liaison to the Archbishop. He was appointed by Cardinal Krol as the Renewal took a foothold in the 1970’s, and continued when Cardinal Bevilacqua took over. He authored the Life in the Spirit Seminar used there, which was reviewed and approved by the archbishop. He retired shortly after I moved, I don’t know who serves as liaison for Cardinal Rigali, as I haven’t been in that diocese since 1991.There are many prominent priests who have served the Renewal who are also part of the Renewal.