Charasmatic

[john_aurelius]

In terms of the Sacraments, we are baptised in water and Spirit at ‘Baptism’.

We are again ‘Baptised in the Spirit’ for strength and become soliders of Christ at ‘Confirmation’.

Is this the end of it?

The Apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost

They were again filled with the Spirit in a prayer meeting in Acts 4: 31

“And when they prayed, the place where they had gathered was shaken, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the word of God with boldness.”

This is a renewal of the Charism of preaching due to being filled with the Spirit. It is not a once for all time event, only the introductory Sacraments are.

 

[gtrenewed]

Your response is what I have come to expect. Very often definsive.
In pointing out that there are issues with the movement. I believe it can be better than it is now and more effective. In many ways, as I pointed out it is what Paul warned against.

There certainly have been issues because people have been involved and people have issues. This has been true in the Church in general but the Holy Spirit keeps us safe through our leadership. The Church leadership say the Renewal is a good thing for the life of the Church but be careful because abuses can occur.

However, tongues is not one of these abuses and that is what you stated you have a problem with. People can abuse tongues but tongues in and of itself is not the abuse. Just as the Eucharist can be abused but the Eucharist is not the abuse.

If I am defensive it is defending what is of God and your charge that tongues is not of God. Your other charges may apply to your local group because in the church-wide renewal has leadership. I cannot comment on what you encountered except to question why a priest and deacon would not listen to you.

I will say that yes there can be improvement but that is what everyone’s journey is about - growing and improving. Just because tongues is prayed at every meeting does not necessarily indicate a lack of growth just as saying the same prayers of the rosary everytime shows a lack of growth. It is through these prayers that we grow. Praying in tongues has enabled me to overcome many things.

 

[gtrenewed]

So this tongue, is different than the tongues at Pentecost, the tongues of being able to speak to people in their different languages? I just want to clarify this?

Yes. Myself and others have explained it many times and most recently ClayPots47 has done a fine job, except I would disagree with his explanation that Apostolic tongues do not praise God. All tongues glorify God.

In summary, the gift of tongues edify the hearer of that language or must be interpreted to edify the assembled church. Prayer tongues edifies the person praying and accomplishes other mysteries because it is the Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer through us.

 

[FAB]

Praying in tongues has enabled me to overcome many things.

Praying in tongues or just praying? There are many forms of prayer and if this helps you find a closer path to God. It is good for you and I don’t want to take that away from you, but as you have indicated that is a first step for many to the greater gifts and mature knowlege of God. It’s also certainly not the only path to know God and this was certainly part of Paul’s message. By indicatng that the the gifts of tonques was the least of the gifts, he was encouraging the people of Cornith to go beyond it and to do the works of the Lord, the greatest was to be self sacraficing and to love as Christ taught.

 

[FAB]

Prayer tongues edifies the person praying and accomplishes other mysteries because it is the Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer through us.

This is were Chrismatics loose many people. Prayer edifies a person, the personal conversation with God is accomplished through many forms of payers.
Be still and know I am God.
The idea that those who are speaking in tongues are getting somekind of special message, or perfect prayer only through them, I augue is a false idea.
Mt6:6 “when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father in secret, who sees what is done in secret will reward you”

 

[gtrenewed]

Praying in tongues or just praying? There are many forms of prayer and if this helps you find a closer path to God. It is good for you and I don’t want to take that away from you, but as you have indicated that is a first step for many to the greater gifts and mature knowlege of God. It’s also certainly not the only path to know God and this was certainly part of Paul’s message. By indicatng that the the gifts of tonques was the least of the gifts, he was encouraging the people of Cornith to go beyond it and to do the works of the Lord, the greatest was to be self sacraficing and to love as Christ taught.

Going on to greater gifts does not mean that prayer tongues is left behind. It is not a either/or; it is both/and. It is prayer and thus will always be with us. Of course, it is one type of prayer. As Paul said, pray with all types of prayer.

Now the gift of tongues, that is a message from God in a tongue not of the messagers knowing, was very important in the first century because of the underground nature of the church due to persecution. It brought critical prophetic teaching to those churches. These tongues had to be interpreted by another in the church. It was part of the “power package” that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would give us in order to be a witness.

Peter and John said “Silver and gold we do not have, but what we have we give you, rise and be healed in Jesus Name.” Over the centuries that got lost except to the few until modern popes once again prayed for a renewal of that power in the life of the church.

 

[gtrenewed]

This is were Chrismatics loose many people. Prayer edifies a person, the personal conversation with God is accomplished through many forms of payers.
Be still and know I am God.
The idea that those who are speaking in tongues are getting somekind of special message, or perfect prayer only through them, I augue is a false idea.
Mt6:6 “when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father in secret, who sees what is done in secret will reward you”

There is a time of stillness during a typical prayer meeting. Many times that is when a message in tongues is received and interpreted.

As for your accusation of a false idea, I would give you, “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Romans 8:26,27

Matthew 6:6 is one type of prayer. Another is boldly going to throne of grace, Heb 4:15,16. The gifts are not rewards for our goodness, they are weapons of our warfare in the Spirit.

I have come across people who doubt the gifts because they sought them but did not receive them and as a result speak against them. There are things I have sought but did not receive. We must not lose faith but instead leave it to God’s Will. There are those that do not see the purpose for them and thus speak against them. Again, there are many things I don’t understand but again, leave it to God’s Will. God’s Will has been expressed by our leadership concerning the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Going on to greater gifts does not mean that prayer tongues is left behind. It is not a either/or; it is both/and. It is prayer and thus will always be with us. Of course, it is one type of prayer. As Paul said, pray with all types of prayer.

Now the gift of tongues, that is a message from God in a tongue not of the messagers knowing, was very important in the first century because of the underground nature of the church due to persecution. It brought critical prophetic teaching to those churches. These tongues had to be interpreted by another in the church. It was part of the “power package” that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would give us in order to be a witness.

Peter and John said “Silver and gold we do not have, but what we have we give you, rise and be healed in Jesus Name.” Over the centuries that got lost except to the few until modern popes once again prayed for a renewal of that power in the life of the church.

Doesn’t Paul say that if there is no one with the Gift of Interpretation is present then the Gift of Tongues should be with held?

Also can you show where this private prayer language that is being talked about here is the same Gift that is interpreted.

Another question I have, how can prayer in a language not known by the person praying be edifying to that person?

 

[john_aurelius]

Doesn’t Paul say that if there is no one with the Gift of Interpretation is present then the Gift of Tongues should be with held?

Also can you show where this private prayer language that is being talked about here is the same Gift that is interpreted.

Another question I have, how can prayer in a language not known by the person praying be edifying to that person?

It is edifying because it focuses our attention on God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Because of the mysteries (1C14:2) that the prayer is uttering.

Many people didn’t understand latin but it was edifying in the context of prayer for similar reasons. Including the people who learnt their latin prayers by rote and kinda know what it says but only because of translation. They wouldn’t be able to parse the words they say.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is edifying because it focuses our attention on God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Because of the mysteries (1C14:2) that the prayer is uttering.

Okay, I can see that. Still don’t really understand it but that would be if I believe that Paul is taking about the kind of prayer in tongues as the Charismatic’s are talking about.

Many people didn’t understand latin but it was edifying in the context of prayer for similar reasons. Including the people who learnt their latin prayers by rote and kinda know what it says but only because of translation. They wouldn’t be able to parse the words they say.

I knew someone would bring up something like this. Though people may not know Latin they can, and do in many if not most cases, know what they are praying because Latin is an actual language and we can look it up to see what is being prayed.

When I pray the Pater Noster, I do not know what the individual Latin words mean but I know that it is the Our Father so while I do not know the actual, individual words being prayed I do know what the prayer is saying. With tongues you can not say that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hs placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

My Revised Standard Version of the Bible has part you bolded saying, “speakers of various kinds of tongues”. Which leads me to believe that Paul is speaking about actual languages rather than a “private prayer language”.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Again, from the RSV;
1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Acts 19:6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied

Even this one is different in the RSV, it has “spoke with tongues” but I do not even see in your quote that this is speaking of that “private prayer language”.

I think we need to look at these passages in the original Greek to determine what they are saying, yet I do not know Biblical Greek, maybe someone who does can help us out here.

 

[ClayPots47]

My Revised Standard Version of the Bible has part you bolded saying, “speakers of various kinds of tongues”. Which leads me to believe that Paul is speaking about actual languages rather than a “private prayer language”.

Again, from the RSV;
1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Even this one is different in the RSV, it has “spoke with tongues” but I do not even see in your quote that this is speaking of that “private prayer language”.

I think we need to look at these passages in the original Greek to determine what they are saying, yet I do not know Biblical Greek, maybe someone who does can help us out here.

Those quotes aren’t about prayer tongues, they are the ones I listed after the paragraph about Apostolic Tongues, also called “Ministry Tongues”. The ones I gave you regarding prayer tongues, was under the paragraph about prayer tongues; Acts 10 44-46, 1 Corinthians 14 2, 1 Corinthians 13. Paul was speaking about actual languages; he was listing some of the charisms used in ministry (1 Corinthians 12:10 & 1 Corinthians 12:28), of which prophecy tongues, and the interpretation of them, is one. Acts 19:6 is showing how Apostolic/Ministry Tongues are received from Paul’s laying on of hands. Sorry if you were confused which were listed as what.Hope this clarifies things.

 

[ClayPots47]

Yes. Myself and others have explained it many times and most recently ClayPots47 has done a fine job, except I would disagree with his explanation that Apostolic tongues do not praise God. All tongues glorify God.

In summary, the gift of tongues edify the hearer of that language or must be interpreted to edify the assembled church. Prayer tongues edifies the person praying and accomplishes other mysteries because it is the Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer through us.

I was differentiating the two kinds/types of tongues. All charisms glorify God, when used properly, but prayer tongues have the specific use of praising God. Apostolic tongues are not used to praise God, that is not their purpose; they are used to teach/instruct by means of prophecy. Two kinds of tongues, two kinds of purposes. BTW, I’m a “she”.

I also think FAB may be having a problem with your last statement:

Prayer edifies a person, the personal conversation with God is accomplished through many forms of payers.
Be still and know I am God.
The idea that those who are speaking in tongues are getting somekind of special message, or perfect prayer only through them, I augue is a false idea.

Specifically where you stated, “it is the Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer through us.” (Bold mine for emphasis)

I think he is reading it as though you are saying that only Charismatics receive perfect prayer of the Holy Spirit through them. The word “the” might be the problem word, I would have used “a”, indicating that prayer tongues is one way, but not the only way, in which the Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer through us. Simply put;

Prayer tongues edifies the person praying and accomplishes other mysteries because it is the Holy Spirit praying a perfect prayer through us.

The Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer through us in many contexts; when we use Gods word from Scripture, God’s word in the Mass, and in Mystical Theology, infused contemplation. In fact, infused contemplation is an excellent example of a type of prayer in which the Holy Spirit and the person praying, speak the language of silence. But it really isn’t silence, it is the language of love, the Spirit speaking to the soul, the soul speaking back in a language the soul cannot comprehend because the Spirit provides it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Those quotes aren’t about prayer tongues, they are the ones I listed after the paragraph about Apostolic Tongues, also called “Ministry Tongues”. The ones I gave you regarding prayer tongues, was under the paragraph about prayer tongues; Acts 10 44-46, 1 Corinthians 14 2, 1 Corinthians 13. Paul was speaking about actual languages; he was listing some of the charisms used in ministry (1 Corinthians 12:10 & 1 Corinthians 12:28), of which prophecy tongues, and the interpretation of them, is one. Acts 19:6 is showing how Apostolic/Ministry Tongues are received from Paul’s laying on of hands. Sorry if you were confused which were listed as what.Hope this clarifies things.

Okay, so where does Paul speak of this prayer in a private language?

 

[FAB]

My Revised Standard Version of the Bible has part you bolded saying, “speakers of various kinds of tongues”. Which leads me to believe that Paul is speaking about actual languages rather than a “private prayer language”.

Again, from the RSV;
1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Even this one is different in the RSV, it has “spoke with tongues” but I do not even see in your quote that this is speaking of that “private prayer language”.

I think we need to look at these passages in the original Greek to determine what they are saying, yet I do not know Biblical Greek, maybe someone who does can help us out here.

I agree. A study of history shows that Cornith was a center of trade in the Roman Empire which would mean many races and languages. Paul’s concern was speading the Gospel. The gift of being able to speak and understand languages would have helped to fullfil this purpose. When one looks at the other gifts that he speaks, they all do the same.

Originally Posted by ClayPots47
Those quotes aren’t about prayer tongues, they are the ones I listed after the paragraph about Apostolic Tongues, also called “Ministry Tongues”. The ones I gave you regarding prayer tongues, was under the paragraph about prayer tongues; Acts 10 44-46, 1 Corinthians 14 2, 1 Corinthians 13. Paul was speaking about actual languages; he was listing some of the charisms used in ministry (1 Corinthians 12:10 & 1 Corinthians 12:28), of which prophecy tongues, and the interpretation of them, is one. Acts 19:6 is showing how Apostolic/Ministry Tongues are received from Paul’s laying on of hands. Sorry if you were confused which were listed as what.Hope this clarifies things.

I these passes Paul it is very possible that he is speaking about the use of language.
i.e. the type language, (tongue) used to speak when giving a homily is different from the type of language (tongue) used when teaching, or pophacy, or the type of lanuguage (toungue) use inn great oritory(angelic)

 

[gtrenewed]

I was differentiating the two kinds/types of tongues. All charisms glorify God, when used properly, but prayer tongues have the specific use of praising God. Apostolic tongues are not used to praise God, that is not their purpose; they are used to teach/instruct by means of prophecy. Two kinds of tongues, two kinds of purposes. BTW, I’m a “she”.

I guess I missed the word of knowledge about your gender

I do pray in tongues and have prophesied in tongues and have interpreted tongues.
Your phraseology is a little of the mark. Acts 2:11 teaches us that the tongues spoken by the Apostles at Pentecost spoke of “the mighty deeds of God” which is praising God; while, Romans 8:26,27 teaches us that our prayer tongue accomplishes the will of God, which could be praise but could be intercession for yourself or someone else. Jude 20 also teaches that we are built up, edified, when praying in the Holy Spirit.

I also think FAB may be having a problem with your last statement:

Specifically where you stated, “it is the Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer through us.” (Bold mine for emphasis)

I think he is reading it as though you are saying that only Charismatics receive perfect prayer of the Holy Spirit through them. The word “the” might be the problem word, I would have used “a”, indicating that prayer tongues is one way, but not the only way, in which the Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer through us. Simply put;

The Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer through us in many contexts; when we use Gods word from Scripture, God’s word in the Mass, and in Mystical Theology, infused contemplation. In fact, infused contemplation is an excellent example of a type of prayer in which the Holy Spirit and the person praying, speak the language of silence. But it really isn’t silence, it is the language of love, the Spirit speaking to the soul, the soul speaking back in a language the soul cannot comprehend because the Spirit provides it.

That is the problem with the critics of the Renewal - they always assume we mean only us. Just because I said ‘the perfect prayer’ does not mean it is the only way; it means it is 'the perfect prayer for that moment, for that person. God can only pray perfectly and a prayer in tongues is not of our making so it is perfect. I think you are splitting hairs between ‘a’ and ‘the’. In any case, agree that there are varied ways to pray a perfect prayer.

 

[gtrenewed]

Doesn’t Paul say that if there is no one with the Gift of Interpretation is present then the Gift of Tongues should be with held?

Also can you show where this private prayer language that is being talked about here is the same Gift that is interpreted.

Another question I have, how can prayer in a language not known by the person praying be edifying to that person?

Yes, if a tongue comes that is for the group assembled, an interpretation is required. This is a prophetic tongue which is different than a prayer tongue. I pray in tongues but I have also given a prophetic tongue and interpreted a prophetic tongue. When it comes the giver knows the difference. The mature help the immature to know the difference and recognize what is from God.

Our source of edification is God, so when we pray in tongues God builds us up as taught in Jude 20 and Romans 8:26,27 and 1Cor 14:4.

Sometimes, God will give you the understanding of what you just prayed using your prayer tongue. Since the prayer tongue is not formulated in our minds but by the Spirit, we do not know what we are praying just that it is Holy Spirit prayer. In this case, as we are praying alone in tongues, interpretation is not necessary.

The prayer tongue is taught in 1Cor 14:14 “For if I pray in a tongue…” also Jude 20 and Rom 8:26,27

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Claire,
Thank you for your response but what you say has raised red flags for me.

So those who do not pray in tongues are not open to receiving a gift from God? Not everyone is open to receiving this particular gift. Nor is it necessary. I think most charismatics probably think that this is a gift that God will give if one asks for it and is willing to exercise it. If a person doesn’t wish to pray in tongues God will rarely give this gift (although sometimes it seems to come without being asked for). It isn’t necessary that everyone ask for the same gifts from God. There is nothing wrong with not praying in tongues or with not wishing to pray in tongues (unless one feels that God is calling one to pray in this way and is resisting Him). This is not a criticism of those who don’t pray in tongues.

Can you show me the teaching in the Bible where it states that everyone receives this gift? The only part I know is what I stated, where Paul says that not everyone receives the same gifts. Jesus said, “ask and you shall receive.” Not all ask for the same gifts; not all are fitted for the same ministries.

So those who have not received this “baptism of the Spirit” do not have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life? Not so. This is not what I stated or meant. I have not received such a thing but I know the Holy Spirit is very active in my life. Many saints didn’t have this experience either. For instance, Mother Theresa.

This seems to make two classes of Catholics (Christians). Those who have had the “baptism of the Spirit” and pray in tongues and those who do not. No, you are the one making that distinction. First, not all who have the ‘baptism of the Spirit’ speak in tongues. Secondly, all who have been baptized have received the Holy Spirit and we all are one body. Third, there are many spiritualities, experiences, and ways to connect with God. Not all are mystics or contemplatives but we do not call these classes of Catholics. Some people find attending a Cursillo opens them up to the action of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Others are drawn into a closer union with God through the consecration to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary. We are not all called to be the same.

I have not had a good experience with this in the past. Maybe it is better that I do not attend. If it would make you uncomfortable, perhaps not. But you don’t know until you try it./quote]

 

[FAB]

ByzCath;8004475:

Claire,
Thank you for your response but what you say has raised red flags for me.

So those who do not pray in tongues are not open to receiving a gift from God? Not everyone is open to receiving this particular gift. Nor is it necessary. I think most charismatics probably think that this is a gift that God will give if one asks for it

and is willing to exercise it. If a person doesn’t wish to pray in tongues God will rarely give this gift (although sometimes it seems to come without being asked for). It isn’t necessary that everyone ask for the same gifts from God. There is nothing wrong with not praying in tongues or with not wishing to pray in tongues (unless one feels that God is calling one to pray in this way and is resisting Him). This is not a criticism of those who don’t pray in tongues.

Paul says in Corth, that there are many gifts given by the Spirit based on the needs of the communittee. Tongues is not used to benifit the communittee but is aften seen as “I’m special” because I speak in tounges.

Can you show me the teaching in the Bible where it states that everyone receives this gift? The only part I know is what I stated, where Paul says that not everyone receives the same gifts. Jesus said, “ask and you shall receive.” Not all ask for the same gifts; not all are fitted for the same ministries

.

Jesus said nothing about speaking in tongues and at Pentecost the tounges were those of various languages, not unintellable babble. Once again, the gifts need not be asked for. They are given at batism, it is through prayer and opening ourselves to the word that individuals are able to use the gifts they pocesses in ministry,

So those who have not received this “baptism of the Spirit” do not have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life? Not so. This is not what I stated or meant.

I have not received such a thing but I know the Holy Spirit is very active in my life. Many saints didn’t have this experience either. For instance, Mother Theresa.

Not only Mother Theresa, but all the saints through the centuries. The gift of tongues throughout the church’s history has never been promoted, not even by Paul until the Chrismatic movement last 20 years. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation we recieve the gifts of the Spirit.

This seems to make two classes of Catholics (Christians). Those who have had the “baptism of the Spirit” and pray in tongues and those who do not. No, you are the one making that distinction. First, not all who have the ‘baptism of the Spirit’ speak in tongues. Secondly, all who have been baptized have received the Holy Spirit and we all are one body. Third, there are many spiritualities, experiences, and ways to connect with God. Not all are mystics or contemplatives but we do not call these classes of Catholics.

Some people find attending a Cursillo opens them up to the action of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Others are drawn into a closer union with God through the consecration to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary. We are not all called to be the same.

The gifts of the Spirit are realized as I said to anyone who opens themselves to the Jesus and his word. I have a propblem with not only the Chrismatics, but other groups that have gotten very clickish with thier practices. They spead the idea that unless someone goes to their retreats they are not truely experincing God.

I have not had a good experience with this in the past. Maybe it is better that I do not attend. If it would make you uncomfortable, perhaps not. But you don’t know until you try it.

/quote]

I have experianced it, it sent me heading to the doors. The Chrismatic movement, I know since I was involed in the early days, were people coming to break open the bible, pray, sing uplifting songs and sharing how the Lord was working in their lives. It was a renewal movement of the Church, but nothing like were the movement has gone today.
Those who have theological issues with what is happening are told that the devil is keeping us from understanding, as I was by a preist. This is bunk.

 

[gtrenewed]

FAB:

Paul says in Corth, that there are many gifts given by the Spirit based on the needs of the communittee. Tongues is not used to benifit the communittee but is aften seen as “I’m special” because I speak in tounges.

Paul was correcting excesses not putting an end to the operation of the gifts.

FAB:

Jesus said nothing about speaking in tongues and at Pentecost the tounges were those of various languages, not unintellable babble. Once again, the gifts need not be asked for. They are given at batism, it is through prayer and opening ourselves to the word that individuals are able to use the gifts they pocesses in ministry,

Jesus not speaking about tongues is a red herring arguement especially since tongues were recorded in Acts. Maybe we should not have the Gregorian chant since Jesus never mentioned it

FAB:

Not only Mother Theresa, but all the saints through the centuries. The gift of tongues throughout the church’s history has never been promoted, not even by Paul until the Chrismatic movement last 20 years. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation we recieve the gifts of the Spirit.

The Charismatic gifts have never been revoked by God. Though we receive them in Baptism and Confirmation; they are only released by faith. The Charismatic Renewal promotes that faith.

FAB:

The gifts of the Spirit are realized as I said to anyone who opens themselves to the Jesus and his word. I have a propblem with not only the Chrismatics, but other groups that have gotten very clickish with thier practices. They spead the idea that unless someone goes to their retreats they are not truely experincing God.

Promoting that openess and providing an environment to experience these gifts is what the Renewal is about. As I said before, I was in a prayer group with a man who was praying the rosary on the fantail of a battleship in WWII and was given tongues. However, it is more normative to have hands laid upon one and prayed over for these gifts to be released or to be “baptised in the Holy Spirit” at a prayer meeting or retreat. It is not clickish to meet with people of like faith, it is only clickish if no one else is allowed to join. The Renewal is very inviting to all who wish to experience this outpouring.

FAB:

I have experianced it, it sent me heading to the doors. The Chrismatic movement, I know since I was involed in the early days, were people coming to break open the bible, pray, sing uplifting songs and sharing how the Lord was working in their lives. It was a renewal movement of the Church, but nothing like were the movement has gone today.
Those who have theological issues with what is happening are told that the devil is keeping us from understanding, as I was by a preist. This is bunk.

Sometimes, you seem a participant in it and other times you say it sent you heading for the door Could you explain this a little more clearly?

The Vatican has approved the Renewal. So it is theologically sound. This does not mean that a local meeting somewhere in the world might have an excess just as happened in Corinth. But there are also excesses in the Mass in various places. This does not mean the Mass is not theologically sound, just that some human fraility got it wrong.

Scripture teaches that Satan does blind our understanding. Perhaps you were wrong and the priest was right, I don’t know I was not there. But I will say this, I know of people who did not receive tongues and are very bitter about it and doubt the existance of tongues. As I have said before, tongues is not a sign of holiness or special approval by God. It is a gift to those who believe and seek. They are not immature gifts for the Apostles were not immature and they operated in them.