Charasmatic

[Claire_from_DE]

• Quote:

Paul says in Corth, that there are many gifts given by the Spirit based on the needs of the communittee. Tongues is not used to benifit the communittee but is aften seen as “I’m special” because I speak in tounges. Praying in tongues is a means of prayer and one means (not the sole means) of being open to the action of the Holy Spirit. There is no “I’m special” about it. *** By this gift the Holy Spirit helps a person to pray when they cannot find the words. It may not be one of the greater gifts but nevertheless it is a gift. Paul says he did it often but didn’t prize it as the most important gift since the others are more important. But that doesn’t mean it’s nothing.***
Quote:

Jesus said nothing about speaking in tongues and at Pentecost the tounges were those of various languages, not unintellable babble. **As many others have said, praying in tongues is not the same as the gift of speaking in tongues at Pentecost. **Once again, the gifts need not be asked for. **After speaking about how human fathers give their children good things, Jesus said, "…How much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask." **They are given at batism, it is through prayer and opening ourselves to the word that individuals are able to use the gifts they pocesses in ministry, **It’s not unbiblical for us to ask for more of the Holy Spirit and for His gifts and to be guided into the ministry He chooses. This is one way to do what you have just described. **

 Quote:
                                             So those who have not received this "baptism of the Spirit" do not have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life? Not so. This is not what I stated or meant.  I have not received such a thing but I know the Holy Spirit is very active in my life.  Many saints didn't have this experience either.  For instance, Mother Theresa.

Not only Mother Theresa, but all the saints through the centuries. That’s a sweeping statement. The gift of tongues throughout the church’s history has never been promoted, not even by Paul **He says he used it more than any of them! **until the Chrismatic movement last 20 years. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation we recieve the gifts of the Spirit. Yes, that’s very true. But we don’t immediately begin using them or even recognize them sometimes.

 Quote:
                                               The gifts of the Spirit are realized as I said to anyone who opens  themselves to the Jesus and his word. I have a propblem with not only  the Chrismatics, but other groups that have gotten very clickish with  thier practices. They spead the idea that unless someone goes to their  retreats they are not truely experincing God.  **So there only one way to 'open themselves to Jesus and His word'?  No, all **of **these groups have something good to offer.  I disagree that this is the attitude of all or even most members of these groups.  When it is, that attitude is wrong.**

 Quote:
                                             I have not had a good experience with this in the past.  Maybe it is better that I do not attend.  If it would make you uncomfortable, perhaps not.  But you don't know until you try it./quote]

•                            I have experianced it, it sent me heading to the doors. The  Chrismatic movement, I know since I was involed in the early days, were  people coming to break open the bible, pray, sing uplifting songs and  sharing how the Lord was working in their lives. ***This sounds like a good prayer group, but not charismatic.***It  was a renewal  movement of the Church, but nothing like were the movement has gone  today. ***I wasn't involved in the charismatic renewal at  its beginning but I have close friends who were.  It was based on  praying that the Holy Spirit would come into their lives in a new and  powerful way.  And then they tried to be open and docile to the movement  of the Spirit in their lives.***

Those who have theological issues with what is happening ***The theological issues you because of how a particular prayer group operated does not mean that the renewal itself is suspect.
*are told that the devil is keeping us from understanding, as I was by a preist. This is bunk. *Well, that is an unwarranted statement from that priest unless he had the gift of discernment of spirits.

It sounds as though your experience was not a good one. You could try again, a different prayer group, to see if your experience would be better this time. But that’s not necessary if you have strong negative feelings about it. It’s not necessary to be ‘charismatic’ to pray and serve God and our neighbor if that’s not God’s plan for you.

---

 

[FAB]

However, it is more normative to have hands laid upon one and prayed over for these gifts to be released or to be “baptised in the Holy Spirit” at a prayer meeting or retreat. It is not clickish to meet with people of like faith, it is only clickish if no one else is allowed to join. The Renewal is very inviting to all who wish to experience this outpouring.

My pint is that “baptism in the spirit” is not necessary to “release” the gifts of the spirit. a good practice of faith will do the very same thing. The 'Baptism" is promoted like a quick fix instead of years of devotion. Sort of the fast food to grace.

Sometimes, you seem a participant in it and other times you say it sent you heading for the door Could you explain this a little more clearly?

I was active in the movement in the 70’s. I was reintroduction to it the last 4 years through our pastor, and have the concerns I have expressed, which I have shared with him. To me at this point, it is a real turn off.

The Vatican has approved the Renewal. So it is theologically sound. This does not mean that a local meeting somewhere in the world might have an excess just as happened in Corinth. But there are also excesses in the Mass in various places. This does not mean the Mass is not theologically sound, just that some human fraility got it wrong.

Yes there are excess and unless the movement seriously looks at itself and reforms itself instead of jumping through hoops to justify itself, it will find itself in trouble. This would be a shame since I have said it has and can bear very good fruit.

Scripture teaches that Satan does blind our understanding. Perhaps you were wrong and the priest was right, I don’t know I was not there. But I will say this, I know of people who did not receive tongues and are very bitter about it and doubt the existance of tongues.

Two points, first the priest was and is in error. He was making an excuses or assumption to my Spiritually in defense of practices I have issues with, by the way this was not my pastor. Second, I have no desire to have the gift of tongues as promoted my the movement. As Paul indicated it has nothing to do to promote the word of God or to minister to those in need. I have many other Charisms which the Lord has blessed me with to which I do use for those purposes.
You do point out a danger which is at the top of my concerns, those who do not get “release” the gifts , including tongues at one of these baptism can have their faith harmed, perhaps even their concept of themselves by seeing themselves not worthy. Follow this up with a priest telling them it’s the devil, then you are setting that person up for disaster. These are abuses and roadblocks to any kind of renewal.

They are not immature gifts for the Apostles were not immature and they operated in them.

The tongues of the apostles as we see at Pentecost was to be able to communicate in different languages, the two should not be confused.

 

[gtrenewed]

My pint is that “baptism in the spirit” is not necessary to “release” the gifts of the spirit. a good practice of faith will do the very same thing. The 'Baptism" is promoted like a quick fix instead of years of devotion. Sort of the fast food to grace…

So your point is that the gifts are earned? How can gifts be earned? The fact is that the gifts are part of our new nature released by faith not years of service. Years of devotion produce the fruits of the Spirit which are very desireable.

The Renewal is about promoting the awareness that we have and can use the Gifts of the Spirit; not what you suggest. The Gifts are still subject to the will of the Holy Spirit that is why we seek the will of the Holy Spirit in manifesting them.

 

[FAB]

So your point is that the gifts are earned? How can gifts be earned? The fact is that the gifts are part of our new nature released by faith not years of service. Years of devotion produce the fruits of the Spirit which are very desireable.

The Renewal is about promoting the awareness that we have and can use the Gifts of the Spirit; not what you suggest. The Gifts are still subject to the will of the Holy Spirit that is why we seek the will of the Holy Spirit in manifesting them.

No the Gifts are from God in baptism. To understand and develop those gifts take prayer and meditation.
Example: some children are musically talented, this no doubt is a gift, one of many not listed by Paul, but if I just sit that child in front of a piano without instruction (I know there are rare exemptions) they will simply bag out noise.
The gift is not suddenly released, it is first realized and then through he guidance of the Holy Spirit develops and matures to do the Lord’s work. Through pray we are able to discern how and were to use the gifts he has given.
“baptism in the Spirit” leads people to thing that using our music analogy, someone who has never played a not of music will suddenly be able to sit down and play Mozart flawlessly.
The only gift that I believe does not fall into this category is that of healing. I have witnessed people with the gift and I have used it. But it is not my gift a person gift, it is the the Spirit working through me to bring healing either Spiritually and in some cases physically.

 

[gtrenewed]

The only gift that I believe does not fall into this category is that of healing. I have witnessed people with the gift and I have used it. But it is not my gift a person gift, it is the the Spirit working through me to bring healing either Spiritually and in some cases physically.

Apparantly, the only reason you classify healing differently is because you experienced it early. However, Scripture doesn’t draw that distinction. In fact, within the first few years of being in the Renewal, I had experienced the nine gifts in one way or another at various times. Maturity in all aspects of our spirituality should be sought, to that I will agree; however, the giving of the gifts is by the will of the Holy Spirit and any Christian can participate by faith.

 

[FAB]

Apparantly, the only reason you classify healing differently is because you experienced it early. However, Scripture doesn’t draw that distinction. In fact, within the first few years of being in the Renewal, I had experienced the nine gifts in one way or another at various times. Maturity in all aspects of our spirituality should be sought, to that I will agree; however, the giving of the gifts is by the will of the Holy Spirit and any Christian can participate by faith.

It’s not that I haven’t experianced the Gifts of the Spirit or that I do not have them, it is that I object to the idea that the only way to “release” for want of a better description, the gifts of the spirit is through the Chrismatic renewal movement or any other that uses the idea of being “baptized in the Spirit”. THe idea is almost treated as a follow up sacrament to being baptized and confirmed. Which is totally false.
What the movement has wrongly tapped into is an idea of the secular population of instant gratification. Instead of being still with God through prayer and letting him speak to you, come to our siminar and at the end we will pray for you “baptize you in the spirit” and you will get you instant reward. If it doesn’t happen for you the first time, it’s the devil after you so come back for a second or third time.
I do not want to seem harsh, but this is what I have seen happening and I believe it is a dangerous road to be on.
Those I have seen with the gift of healing are very spiritual, but the gift did not come from being “baptised in the Spirit”. It was not even a gift that was asked for.

 

[anjoh66]

My Revised Standard Version of the Bible has part you bolded saying, “speakers of various kinds of tongues”. Which leads me to believe that Paul is speaking about actual languages rather than a “private prayer language”.

Again, from the RSV;
1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Even this one is different in the RSV, it has “spoke with tongues” but I do not even see in your quote that this is speaking of that “private prayer language”.

I think we need to look at these passages in the original Greek to determine what they are saying, yet I do not know Biblical Greek, maybe someone who does can help us out here.

I think the Lord has already clarified that it can be a prayer language.

In Mark 16 it says:
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with** new tongues**;

The keyword here is New tongues, if it was a question of already existing languages it shouldnt say new, but rather foreign tongues.

Just a thought that came to my mind, correct me if i am wrong