Charismatic Catholic Experiences

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catholicdude942

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I hate to start another thread, but I recently discovered this movement and I started wondering about something that hadn’t been answered. I’m wondering what happens at charismatic masses that triggers the slaying in the spirit and such. I mean it seems like these spiritual gifts happen to everyone. I’ve gone to so many traditional masses and have never seen such experiences even when people pray before the Blessed Sacrament. It’s almost like these masses are a sure fire way to get these gifts. I just do see why the gifts are given so gratuitously at these charismatic masses just by the laying of the hands. I was always under the impression that spiritual gifts were a rarity, but something must go on at those masses that causes a lot of these gifts. Is this just triggered by the laying of the hands and the praying? Not to sound cynical but isn’t it a possibility that some people are pretending to speak in tongues because it is expected of them. The whole falling back thing seems to me like something you would see on one of those TV shows. I mean I don’t know it just sounds like a few too many miracles happen at EVERY mass all around the country. It’s very possible that it’s all okay and everything I do not doubt that especially since the Pope is ok with it. I trust in the Holy Spirit but I know there are also many other spirits out there. That’s why they warn people against Ouija boards and centering prayer. I mean a lot of Catholics will tell you centering prayer is cool when it’s actually rooted in Eastern religions and focusing on the individual rather than God. I’ve never been to one of these masses I’m just judging my questions based on what I’ve read on this site and other places. Sorry if I seem cynical I’m just pointing out some of the doubts in my mind that make me hesitant. If you can help me learn more about this I’d be greatful. I’m also kind of wondering how Pope Benedict is going to feel about this movement and whether he will want to keep it given his conservative stance.
 
IMHO, I would stay far, far away from the so-called “catholic” charismatic movement. This movement began in Protestant circles, and it has NO place in Catholicism. I think the whole thing is looney.
And a miracle DOES happen at every Mass: Our Lord Jesus Christ gives us His Body and Blood for our Food & Drink. Now THAT’s a real miracle.
 
The baptism of the Holy Spirit, or infilling of the Spirit, which results in receiving the gifts of the Spirit, is indeed given through the laying on of hands. That’s the way the Lord moved through the Apostles and He stills works that way today. The power of God, referred to as the anointing of God, literally flows from the person praying, through their hands, into the one receiving. It does sound easy and in some respects, it is. The gifts of the Spirit are a function of grace, unmerited favor. No one “earns” the gifts. God gives them freely just as He does salvation. Our job is to believe and receive and then live in obedience to the Lord so that the Lord can function through those gifts to build up the Church. The reason one doesn’t experience this at regular Masses is simply because you need to have someone present who’s been baptized in the Spirit – there needs to be a source of the power of God and that person needs to be praying for people via laying on of hands. If these are not present, then you won’t witness the manifestations of the Spirit.

“Slaying in the Spirit” is not really related to the gifts, though many times it is through Charismatic services that one experiences that. It’s a physical reaction to the Presence of God. In Charismatic worship and prayer, the Spirit of God is often so powerfully manifested that one literally feels His power and it can overwhelm the senses causing one to fall. If you read the Old Testament, whenever the Glory of God filled the temple, all of the priests fell down, it’s the same thing.

It’s tempting to chalk such things up to evil or to emotionalism, but be careful. While it’s possible that some are “faking” manifestations of the Spirit, for whatever reason, but the majority are mature, God-loving, faithful Catholics who are genuinely manifesting God’s power and Presence. This has been validated by both the previous and current Pope. Those who say otherwise are wrong and find themselves opposing the opinion of the Pope. Even Father Amorth, the Vatican exorcist, validated the Charismatic experience in his books saying he knows that Charismatics are particularly successful in exorcisms and deliverance prayers and he encouraged the Church to embrace and expand the experience. If he suspected it was evil, he never would have made such endorsements.

David
 
Personally, I never liked the whole charismatic movement either. My earliest memory of this service was when it was performed regularly at my elementary school parish in the late 70’s/early 80’s. The whole thing was more divisive than anything. That 's not good in and of itself.

I believe that the Spirit comes to us all the time in many different and subtle ways if we welcome Him.
 
Spiritual gifts are not a rarity, they are for anyone who has recieved christ(not as in communion, as in becoming a christian). People who believe in two seperate baptisims can really site only one instance in the bible where the spirit was not recieved on baptism. Some scholars believe that this was not because the individuals had been baptized incorrectly, but because they lacked a mature christian in their midsts, and were not aware of the holy spirit, though they had it anyways.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Not everyone has a gift of tongues or prophesy. Although these are gifts, they are only the loud ones. Other gifts include healing, leadership, discernement, ect. I believe there are 22 in all mentioned in the bible, but unfortunately, I can’t name them all off the top of my head.
The reasons we don’t see these gifts burst forth in our normal mass(or service in my church) could be many. For one, it would be highly unacceptable and distratcting to raise one’s voice in tongues in a normal service. Also, most people neglect to ask God for these gifts under normal circumstances. I blame this partially on our leadership, which spends so much time focusing on the awesomeness of God, and the sacrifice of His Son, but neglects to give the third part of the trinity equal time.
Where would the church be if pastors and priests spent more time focusing on instructing our congregations about the holy spirit, and challenging us to work with God in developing these gifts?
 
I would like to suggest two websites that can answer these questions for everyone.

InUnity.org


The first listed explains the movement and what the Church says including Pope Pauls view of it.

Jesus died for us but did not leave us orphans! The Holy Spirit dwells in all believers. see John 14:16-21

Remember what the mockers said in Acts just after the Holy Spirit fell on the people?
“They are full of new wine” Acts 2:13
Acts 2:17- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. and on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days: and they shall prophecy …
See Acts 10: 44-48 when the Spirit fell on the gentiles.
The Holy Spirit is for everyone and not just in those days as some people think.
Hebrews 13;8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday,today and forever”. Amen
Psalms teaches us to praise and worship Him with song and dance and shouting to the Lord. He loves it when we are enthusiastic and zealous for Him.
So many scriptures to back up the the charasmatic movement. It is essential to the church that we allow the Holy Spirit to move through us so He can accomplish what He set out to accomplish.
 
Laura McCann:
I would like to suggest two websites that can answer these questions for everyone.

InUnity.org
Renewalministries.net

The first listed explains the movement and what the Church says including Pope Pauls view of it.

Jesus died for us but did not leave us orphans! The Holy Spirit dwells in all believers. see John 14:16-21

Remember what the mockers said in Acts just after the Holy Spirit fell on the people?
“They are full of new wine” Acts 2:13
Acts 2:17- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. and on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days: and they shall prophecy …
See Acts 10: 44-48 when the Spirit fell on the gentiles.
The Holy Spirit is for everyone and not just in those days as some people think.
Hebrews 13;8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday,today and forever”. Amen
Psalms teaches us to praise and worship Him with song and dance and shouting to the Lord. He loves it when we are enthusiastic and zealous for Him.
So many scriptures to back up the the charasmatic movement. It is essential to the church that we allow the Holy Spirit to move through us so He can accomplish what He set out to accomplish.
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My belief is, if you want to be a Charismatic, fine… I find it personally unnecessary and emotionalistic rather than pious, but it’s recognized by the Church, so I won’t say it lacks validity.
Still, I think people should embrace the intellectual wealth the Church has (i.e., knowing God) rather than try to find God via experiential things.
 
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BillyT92679:
Still, I think people should embrace the intellectual wealth the Church has (i.e., knowing God) rather than try to find God via experiential things.
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Who here ever was in a sound relationship (friend, mother, father, boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, brother, sister, etc.) and claimed to know the person when in fact they’ve never met the person; all they knew about them was what they had read by others?

The thought is ridiculous. We HAVE to experience God to fully know him and love him. Intellectual knowledge helps us in this, but can not establish this on its own.

Whereas it is true that our faith and love to God should not be based on an emotional reaction, but a deeper choice of will, God created us to have emotions, and therefore they should be put to use in praising him. He does not give us gifts so that we never use them. To say that our mind in worship is good, but our emotions are evil is just the heresy of dualism.

The fact of the matter is, my best friend died on a cross to save my soul. That is not limited to an intellectual fact. That is a life changing truth. Anyone who claims to believe that God is love, and yet does not have some emotional reaction to that from time to time needs to spend some serious time before the blessed sacrament.

Josh
 
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BillyT92679:
My belief is, if you want to be a Charismatic, fine… I find it personally unnecessary and emotionalistic rather than pious, but it’s recognized by the Church, so I won’t say it lacks validity.
Still, I think people should embrace the intellectual wealth the Church has (i.e., knowing God) rather than try to find God via experiential things.
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You’re calling gifts that God gives the Church “unnecessary” and “emotionalistic”. Be very careful in issuing such judgements. When your spurn the gifts, you also spurn the Giver of the gifts. God doesn’t give unnecessary gifts! It’s pride and foolishness to believe otherwise. And Paul commands us to “earnestly seek the greater gifts”!!

I suggest you study 1 Corithinians to discover the very integral role the gifts are intended to be used in building and edifying the Church. Without those gifts, Jesus and the Apostles never would have performed a single miracle, cause all of the miraculous were a result of the gifts. And without the gifts, how successful would they have been in establishing the Church. The sad thing is that we’ve so neglected the gifts over the years, that someone such as yourself can no longer see the value of a gift as wonderful as healing.

David
 
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catholicdude942:
Not to sound cynical but isn’t it a possibility that some people are pretending to speak in tongues because it is expected of them.
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That’s what I think. Why are there so many who have the gift of tongues, and why are so many babbling nonsense? Wouldn’t at least a few of them be able to speak in a language that is in common use today? Why is it that the gift of tongues these days is a language that no one can understand, and anyone off the street can come in and garble a few syllables that are indiscernable, and yet people think that ability (uttering words that make no sense) is some gift?

Yes, I know - I’ve heard people say that these are groanings of the Holy Spirit. But how do you know if it is just yourself groaning and going “ibba, googa, dooga” or (as I once heard) “Shhhhhh, pitta, pitta, pitta” or if the Holy Spirit just decided to come down and do that?

I had a friend in college who told me this story about the time he felt forced into praying in tongues. He was not Catholic; he was going to some Pentecostal Protestant church with some people he met and got to know. He told me that they kept pressuring him about how he isn’t really worshipping if he doesn’t speak in tongues, he’s really not “in the Spirit” unless he speaks in tongues, and so forth. You know, that you’re not really holy unless you are making a big, dramatic show of it. He got so tired of this and felt so pressured that he did the following: He was a guitarist, and his group of frinds in high school did the garage band deal. One time they were all goofing off and they made up this song using nonsense syllables. It was something like “Arten dee-oh yah, yah, yah!” and so forth with other nonsense for the whole song. So he finally started reciting these nonsense lyrics from his garage band days, in a prayerful pose for these Pentecostals, and they were so impressed at his “ability” to speak in tongues!
 
The following by DavidB,
“. Even Father Amorth, the Vatican exorcist, validated the Charismatic experience in his books saying he knows that Charismatics are particularly successful in exorcisms and deliverance prayers and he encouraged the Church to embrace and expand the experience. If he suspected it was evil, he never would have made such endorsements.”
I have read both of Father Amorth’s books.

HE DID NOT SAY THAT CHARISMATICS ARE SUCCESSFUL IN EXORCISMS. If you read carefully you would know that it is only a Priest who was directed by his Bishop who will have authority over Satan and his demons. Further, the precise invocations and prayers that have been proven are to be used. Amorth says to not ad lib. An excorism is to be done by a duly appointed Priest, not a layman.

From your post I can tell that you swallowed the Charismatic movement - hook line and sinker. You made statements but didn’t give a Biblical nor a statement from Tradition to justify that movement.
 
I truly dislike threads where folks debate this subject because they always end up getting somewhat hostile and eventually locked down.

However, I think the author asked a valid question and I will try to give you an educated answer, having been part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for over 35 years.

The first thing to remember is that Jesus is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever. He is WHO HE IS and will never change.

He healed the sick, cast out demons and even raised the dead. He said that these things and even greater things would we do.

He also promised to send the Holy Spirit.

We know that Jesus is not capable of lieing. He IS TRUTH.

He kept his promise, and sent the Holy Spirit on the Apostles at Pentecost. They then, healed the sick, cast out demons and even raised the dead, along with many other miracles.

They layed hands on folks, they received the Holy Spirit and they received Spiritual Gifts. These were what we call Charisms. Miraculous Gifts.

The Church teaches us that we receive these Gifts at Confirmation. The only problem is, we don’t teach much about them. We actually only mention the Old Testament Gifts, not the New Testament ones that applied to Christian Believers.

In the 1960’s when Pope John XXII opened Vatican II, he prayed for the Holy Spirit to fall like a New Pentecost. God heard and answered that Prayer and we witnessed the birth of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church.

Many folks, like myself, have seen far too many miracles, wonderful healings, seeing the deaf hear, folks get up out of wheel chairs, miracles of the Eucharist, wonderful conversions, more things than I can describe right now, not to realize that this is real. The FRUITS, are how we judge this Renewal. The fruits have, for the most part been good. We see folks falling deeply in love with God in the Holy Trininty, drawn closer and closer to the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist, become servants in the Church and a desire to be submissive to Holy Mother Church.

For those who don’t feel comfortable with this experience, I would only ask you to read more about it with an open heart, read the writings of the Holy Father and especially read the Epistles about the move of the Holy Spirit in the early Church. Read the lives of the Saints and you will see Charismatics down through history.

Possibly, with better teaching our Confirmation classes, you would see these same miracles at Regular Masses. Something to think aboutl
 
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catholicdude942:
I hate to start another thread, but I recently discovered this movement and I started wondering about something that hadn’t been answered. I’m wondering what happens at charismatic masses that triggers the slaying in the spirit and such. I mean it seems like these spiritual gifts happen to everyone. I’ve gone to so many traditional masses and have never seen such experiences even when people pray before the Blessed Sacrament. It’s almost like these masses are a sure fire way to get these gifts. I just do see why the gifts are given so gratuitously at these charismatic masses just by the laying of the hands. I was always under the impression that spiritual gifts were a rarity, but something must go on at those masses that causes a lot of these gifts. Is this just triggered by the laying of the hands and the praying? Not to sound cynical but isn’t it a possibility that some people are pretending to speak in tongues because it is expected of them. The whole falling back thing seems to me like something you would see on one of those TV shows. I mean I don’t know it just sounds like a few too many miracles happen at EVERY mass all around the country. It’s very possible that it’s all okay and everything I do not doubt that especially since the Pope is ok with it. I trust in the Holy Spirit but I know there are also many other spirits out there. That’s why they warn people against Ouija boards and centering prayer. I mean a lot of Catholics will tell you centering prayer is cool when it’s actually rooted in Eastern religions and focusing on the individual rather than God. I’ve never been to one of these masses I’m just judging my questions based on what I’ve read on this site and other places. Sorry if I seem cynical I’m just pointing out some of the doubts in my mind that make me hesitant. If you can help me learn more about this I’d be greatful. I’m also kind of wondering how Pope Benedict is going to feel about this movement and whether he will want to keep it given his conservative stance.
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I have had a similar experience. What you describe are authentic gifts of the spirit, but just as you said, these gifts are rare. This is where I get in trouble with Charismatics. As scripture states in order for tounges to be an authentic gift, there must be someone there who can interpret the tounges. Like on the first Pentecost, everyone could understand what the Apostles were saying. If no one can understand that what the people are shouting come from their exstatic emotions, not the spirit. I take the gifts of the spirit seriously and so I will not toy around with it, if I have the gift, then I would be speaking. With that said, I have been dubbed a stick in the mud by the others, they think that because I’m not clapping and raising my hands in the air and then falling on the floor that I’m not experiencing Jesus. That is not true at all. When I pray my rosary while listening to Gregorian Chant and I have all of the candles in my room lit and the incense burning and I’m gazing at my pieta, I go into a trance and I get goosebumps all over. Just because I’m silently kneeling with my hands clasped does not mean that I’m not slain in the spirit.

I can’t speak for all charismatics, but that has been my experience, if I’m not worshiping like them, then I’m a stick in the mud. It’s like telling a Byzantine Catholic that they need to use unleavend bread and offer communion with both species seperate. It’s not the way they worship and they’re still 100% Catholic and they are experiencing Jesus.
 
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Exporter:
I have read both of Father Amorth’s books.

HE DID NOT SAY THAT CHARISMATICS ARE SUCCESSFUL IN EXORCISMS. If you read carefully you would know that it is only a Priest who was directed by his Bishop who will have authority over Satan and his demons. Further, the precise invocations and prayers that have been proven are to be used. .
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Actually, yes he did say that, I just read his 2nd book last week and his first book last month. In fact, he even commented on non-Catholic Pentecostals as being successful with no Catholic priest or bishop involved, and as a former Pentecostal, I can tell you that the very same Holy Spirit that makes them successful is in Catholic Charismatics.

And to your other question, ‘yes’ I have bought into the Charismatic experience. It’s transformed my life and my wife and children are living proof of his miraculous healing power as it flows through Charismatics. In short, my wife and I could not have children (medically documented), but after Charismatic prayer, we now have 3 beautiful boys. And with the 3rd pregnancy, my wife was found to have a tumor on her womb that was large enough to feel and see outside her skin and was documented on the sonogram. There was a good chance she wouldn’t make it through delivery. Yet we prayed and laid hands on her, and the tumor literally disappeared from one week to the next . . . the sonogram technician spent 15 minutes trying to locate what was all over the screen the previous week, doctor couldn’t explain it, but we could 🙂

David
 
The Lord entered into my life in an awesome, EXPERIENTIAL way a little more than two years ago. I never knew how much God loved me and wanted a relationship with me. He taught me so much and changed me so much.
I went through all the “Charasmatic stuff” in my own home. I did not even know there was a Charasmatic movement in the church until a friend of mine mentioned it(A non catholic by the way).

1 Corinthians 2:13 -14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him…
 
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Spooky7272:
IMHO, I would stay far, far away from the so-called “catholic” charismatic movement. This movement began in Protestant circles, and it has NO place in Catholicism. I think the whole thing is looney.
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No, the movement did not begin in Protestant circles, it began in Jerusalem on Pentecost day when theHoly Spirit came down on the 120 in the Upper Room. It is the same Holy Spirit that comes to us in Baptism and should be released in power at Confirmation - but isn’t because of low expectation and a lack of openess to the Spirit.

“Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to building her up, to the good of men and to the needs of the world.” (CCC799) and it goes on “Charisms are to accepted with gratitude by the person who recives them, and by all members of the Church as well”

JPII said that the charismatic and hierarchical dimensions are co-essential to the configuration of the Church, and talked about the providential rediscovery of the charismatic dimension of the Church.

Miracles should be a normal part of Church life, just as they were in the life of Jesus and of the early church.
 
1Thessalonians 5:19-22: “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil.”

"Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly desired, nor is it from them that the fruits of apostolic labors are to be presumptuously expected" (emphasis mine)(Lumen Gentium 12).
 
My, my …such strong reactions from those who encountered more the human dimension of the Catholic Charismatic renewal than the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Here is what out late Pope John Paul II had to say to one of the prominent leaders in the Charismatic renewal:

“For you and for your collaborators in the Renewal, His Holiness prays the continued outpouring of the Holy Spirit, who is the very soul of the Body of Christ.It is undoubtedly for the building up of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, …Your’s, then, is a unique responsibility to use these talents within the Charismatic Renewal ever to deepen a sense of genuine dedication to the Church… I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of this entire renewal, this spiritual renewal of the Church”. Pope John Paul II words to Ralph Martin of Renewal Ministries in 1980. http://www.renewalministries.net/newsletter.php (June Newsletter).
 
"For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,

What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,

… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. *Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, *Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)] "

Source : ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
 
Sarah Jane said:
"For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,
At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,
What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,
… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. *Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, *Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)] "

Source : ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
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