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robertaf
Guest
Sarah Jane said:
ooops, meant to say that this is a very beautifully balanced description and explanation. Good work.
- Status
ooops, meant to say that this is a very beautifully balanced description and explanation. Good work.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
This is all quite interesting.
I was wondering if any Pro- charismatic people could enlighten me on the history of the movement?
other than the Gospels, are there any early church fathers
that discuss this? Any previous popes (other than JPII) or councils?
I have more questions for later
Thanks
Mike
I was wondering if any Pro- charismatic people could enlighten me on the history of the movement?
other than the Gospels, are there any early church fathers
that discuss this? Any previous popes (other than JPII) or councils?
I have more questions for later
Thanks
Mike
R
robertaf
Guest
Well, there is Jesus who promised to send the Holy Spirit, then there is John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mamas womb who said he would baptize with water but Jesus would come and Baptize with the Holy Spirit. Then there was St Paul who wrote about it. There was all the Apostles and probably the Blessed Mother who was in the upper room at Pentecost. St Luke writes about it in the Acts of the Apostles.
When you read the lives of the Saints, you will read about many Charismatic folks who in order to be canonized, had to exhibit the Gift of Miracles, usually healing. These are Spiritual gifts. Then there is Saintly Pope John XXIII who prayed for this Fresh outpouring of the Spirit at the opening of Vatican II, Pope Paul, Pope John Paul and our new Pope Benedict has all written and spoken about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
I attend SCRC see www.scrc.org convention each year. There have been nearly 15,000 witnesses at these Conventions along with a number of Bishops and at least one Cardinal not to mention hundreds of Priests, Deacons, Brothers and Sisters who have witnessed and many many of them have written about what they have seen.
I would say this is pretty sufficient. If you need to see more, I suggest a good Catholic Library or Book store.
When you read the lives of the Saints, you will read about many Charismatic folks who in order to be canonized, had to exhibit the Gift of Miracles, usually healing. These are Spiritual gifts. Then there is Saintly Pope John XXIII who prayed for this Fresh outpouring of the Spirit at the opening of Vatican II, Pope Paul, Pope John Paul and our new Pope Benedict has all written and spoken about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
I attend SCRC see www.scrc.org convention each year. There have been nearly 15,000 witnesses at these Conventions along with a number of Bishops and at least one Cardinal not to mention hundreds of Priests, Deacons, Brothers and Sisters who have witnessed and many many of them have written about what they have seen.
I would say this is pretty sufficient. If you need to see more, I suggest a good Catholic Library or Book store.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
Thanks for the info,
yes, I actually figured I could sift through a library to find it, but I know you guys are involved in it so I thought I would ask.
Im actually not so concerned with what happened to individuals but in the organized movement itself. I know the gospels, and I understand that the saints could perform miracles, but I dont see the corelation with an organized “charismatic” movement. By the exampes you gave everyone of us is actually a charismatic, all of us receiving some form of grace from the Holy Ghost. What I was wondering is if there was any evidence of a charismatic renewal in the writings of the ancient fathers or councils? And, if not, what is its purpose now? I looked around on the internet but couldn’t find anything.
Thanks
Mike
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steve99
Guest
There was no charismatic renewal in the early church because they were using the charisms and so did not need renewal.
The problem has been that the use of the charisms have been suppressed for centuries (although they were clearly manifested by saints), and there was a false doctrine promoted by many theologians called dispensationalism which claimed that they were only for the early church to get it off the ground, like booster rockets in a space rocket. This was finally corrected at Vatican II.
Yes everone should be a charismatic, that is using charismatic gifts from the Holy Spirit. They are for the upbuilding of the church, and because they are not being developed and used the Church is not being upbuilt. This explains why the church is in such a state - at least in the West.
The modern renewal movement started in the catholic church soon after Vatican II. There are many books about this.
Finally Charismatic Renewal is not an organised movement like other movements such as Focolare, Opus Dei, or the post Vatican II movements or communities. It would say that its founder is the Holy Spirit. It does not have its own hierarchy. The hierarchy is meant to be the Church Hierarchy, because the whole church should be charismatic.
It does have “Service Committees” in different countries and diocese, but these are to serve the renewal not to direct it or conrol it. They do not have authority over people in the renewal. There is no membership etc.
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delorean_boy
Guest
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steve99
Guest
Hi delorean _boy
I hope this covers all the points you raised above.
Gifts – The gifts you mention (wisdom understanding etc.) are known as the “sanctifying” gifts and are given to us for our personal sanctification (holiness). The gifts we are talking about here are known as the “charismatic” gifts, such things as teaching, prophecy, healing, miracles etc. the best known reference to some of these are 1Cor 12 onward. But some are also referred to in 1Pet 4:10-11, and I think in other places in scripture. The charismatic gifts are given for us to use in the service of others, for building up the body of Christ.
I hope this covers all the points you raised above.
Gifts – The gifts you mention (wisdom understanding etc.) are known as the “sanctifying” gifts and are given to us for our personal sanctification (holiness). The gifts we are talking about here are known as the “charismatic” gifts, such things as teaching, prophecy, healing, miracles etc. the best known reference to some of these are 1Cor 12 onward. But some are also referred to in 1Pet 4:10-11, and I think in other places in scripture. The charismatic gifts are given for us to use in the service of others, for building up the body of Christ.
- When did they die out? – my understanding is that a big decline was when Constantine became a Christian, and being a Christian became a good thing to be socially and politically. The Church got diluted by half hearted Christians. But I have also read somewhere that much earlier some of gifts became associated with heretical sects and so the church started to disassociate itself from them. When I said suppressed perhaps I should say strongly discouraged and there was also a tendency to preserve them solely for the hierarchy (e.g healing). When it became evident that these gifts were not being manifested in the church the theory or “doctrine” grew up that these gifts were given as a special dispensation to the early church to get it going, but they were not needed any longer. One problem with this theory (apart from there being no justification for it) is that many saints manifested many of these gifts, so the Spirit was still giving out the gifts to those who would accept them…
- “What your saying is, is that after the Apostolic era, there was no longer an upbuilding of the Church??? So Holy Mother Church has been in a downslide for 1900 years? (until charismatic renewal)”. -
- “I cannot accept that the Holy Ghost just turned his back on the Church (with the exception of some of the saints) for nearly the entire history of the Church.”
- “Well there must be some hierarchy, otherwise how can you discern between authentic charisms and the devil? there must be some guidlines, surely its not a free for all.” –
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delorean_boy
Guest
Hey Steve,
First of all, thanks for the informative reply, I think I am starting
to see what you guys are saying a little better.
1-3. Ok, I know the charismata, what I was refering to with the gifts and fruits is that it seems the charismatic movement almost totally blows these major graces of the Holy Ghost off, focusing almost completely on the more spectacular charismata. I find this disturbing. I am familiar with the scripture you site, and I personally think that the scripture references to the charismata (speaking in tongues specifically) is quite ambiguous. And it seems as if St Paul is trying to "rein in " the charismatics of his time. (my own interpretation). Now my question to you is: Today, how do these things build up the Church and serve others??
Next, that is an interesting historical theory about Constantine, ive never heard it used like that. Ive only heard protestants use it to argue the Church’s apostacy. Do you have any facts to back this up? (Church fathers? saints?). Now as far as herecy with similar properties to the modern renewal, I am almost positive of 3 or 4 groups that were excommunitcated and anethmatized(sp?) as heretics. Interestingly It was not earlier but much later, during the middle ages and enlightenment.
Now, this whole idea of suppression and hoarding of the charismata by the hierarchy I just dont buy. First there is no evidence for it. Second, It seems that many charismatics treat these extraordinary gifts ( and historically, even in the bible and saints, they have been exceedingly rare) as objects that can be manipulated by man.(such as above, ie hoarding and suppression). The Holy Ghost gives these gifts to whoever he sees fit. At any time. There is no way that the Church could possibly stop these gifts from being implemented.
Now the notion that the dispensation “doctrine” was a late evolution in response to the drought of charismata. It depends what you mean by late. here is what St Augustine of Hippo says in the 4th century.
“Who in our day expects that those on whom hands are laid so that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith speak with tongues…These signs were adapted to the times. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all the tongues over the earth. But that thing was done for the betokening, and it has passed away.”
So as you can see, this was not a late innovation, but quite an early response to the decline of these manifestations. Also I believe that St Thomas Aquinas states something similar in his Summa. Ill double check that though.
As far as what you say about the charismata being manifested in a few Saints ( most Saints, are never given notable consolations in their Faith, much less extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Ghost.). I dont believe that this is a very good argument for the charismatic movement. If anything (conspiracy theorys aside) it shows the utter rarity of these spectacular gifts, since apostolic times. What is interesting to me, is that what was once quite extraordinay (almost non existent in fact for the gift of tongues) in even the greatest of Saints, became quite an everyday hum drum occurance with the advent of the petecostal movement.
First of all, thanks for the informative reply, I think I am starting
to see what you guys are saying a little better.
1-3. Ok, I know the charismata, what I was refering to with the gifts and fruits is that it seems the charismatic movement almost totally blows these major graces of the Holy Ghost off, focusing almost completely on the more spectacular charismata. I find this disturbing. I am familiar with the scripture you site, and I personally think that the scripture references to the charismata (speaking in tongues specifically) is quite ambiguous. And it seems as if St Paul is trying to "rein in " the charismatics of his time. (my own interpretation). Now my question to you is: Today, how do these things build up the Church and serve others??
Next, that is an interesting historical theory about Constantine, ive never heard it used like that. Ive only heard protestants use it to argue the Church’s apostacy. Do you have any facts to back this up? (Church fathers? saints?). Now as far as herecy with similar properties to the modern renewal, I am almost positive of 3 or 4 groups that were excommunitcated and anethmatized(sp?) as heretics. Interestingly It was not earlier but much later, during the middle ages and enlightenment.
Now, this whole idea of suppression and hoarding of the charismata by the hierarchy I just dont buy. First there is no evidence for it. Second, It seems that many charismatics treat these extraordinary gifts ( and historically, even in the bible and saints, they have been exceedingly rare) as objects that can be manipulated by man.(such as above, ie hoarding and suppression). The Holy Ghost gives these gifts to whoever he sees fit. At any time. There is no way that the Church could possibly stop these gifts from being implemented.
Now the notion that the dispensation “doctrine” was a late evolution in response to the drought of charismata. It depends what you mean by late. here is what St Augustine of Hippo says in the 4th century.
“Who in our day expects that those on whom hands are laid so that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith speak with tongues…These signs were adapted to the times. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all the tongues over the earth. But that thing was done for the betokening, and it has passed away.”
So as you can see, this was not a late innovation, but quite an early response to the decline of these manifestations. Also I believe that St Thomas Aquinas states something similar in his Summa. Ill double check that though.
As far as what you say about the charismata being manifested in a few Saints ( most Saints, are never given notable consolations in their Faith, much less extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Ghost.). I dont believe that this is a very good argument for the charismatic movement. If anything (conspiracy theorys aside) it shows the utter rarity of these spectacular gifts, since apostolic times. What is interesting to me, is that what was once quite extraordinay (almost non existent in fact for the gift of tongues) in even the greatest of Saints, became quite an everyday hum drum occurance with the advent of the petecostal movement.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
- This also I find disconcerting. I will use my grandmother as an example. Daily communicant, confesses weekly or more, deep devotion, and almost childlike love and trust in our Lord and Blessed Mother. She doesnt speak in tongues, or heal people (directly) , or prophesy. So by your logic, even though she would be considered an excellent Catholic, she isnt open to the workings of the Holy ghost??? What about the thousands of Saints who didnt manifest these charismata? Basically what Im asking… is whats wrong with them? Why do almost all those who are part of the modern charismatic movement manifest these gifts, but almost no one outside of it? Are these people not open to the Holy Ghost? What about the countless monks and sisters whose whole lives were devoted completely to the Triune God, to know and love him more perfectly in all they do. Are they not open to the Holy Ghost? Do you understand what im getting at? This is something I really dont understand.
- What do you mean the whole Church properly acting charismatically? Is the Church since the time of the Apostles not proper? How can this be, she is indefectable, no?
To be proper must all people and liturgies manifest the charismata?
D
delorean_boy
Guest
by the way i apologize for my spelling 
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robertaf
Guest
Hi Delorean Boy,
I expect that Steve 99 is going to follow up with outstanding answers to your questions. He knows his stuff. I hope you do not mind me tossing in some answers from my point of view.
By the way, you tend to use the greek term, Charismata, I use Charism. Since it is a bit confusing, how 'bout I use the term, Spiritual Gifts or just Gifts. Is that ok with you?
In your 1-3 you claim the “charismatic movement” (we call it the Catholic Charismatic Renewal or just CCR) blow off the gifts and the fruits. I am thinking you might mean the Old Testament Gifts? We do not blow them off at all, we value every gift of the Holy Spirit. These particular gifts are the ones that have been taught with the Sacrament of Confirmation. These were also Gifts given to the Old Testament folks. The CCR does focus on the CHRISTIAN GIFTS, the ones given freely to the Early Church but we still value the others. The Fruits are what we are tested by, the results of our life in the Holy Spirit. The Fruits are a top priority with us.
Ahh, you say you find the scripture “quite ambiguous”. Maybe that is why Jesus left us a teaching Church. We have Holy Mother Church to lead us and guide us. I mentioned 4 Holy Fathers who the Holy Spirit has sent to teach us who have all, embraced and encouraged these Spiritual Gifts and the CCR. These have been documented here in this thread.
I do appreciate and respect your nice posts, by the way.
Next is your historical references.
Being a teacher of Church and Bible History, you are now in a place where I feel quite comfortable. Steve is absolutely right where Constantine is concerned.
I would recommend you to the very fine book “Documents of the Christian Church” published by Oxford University Press.
To add a slightly newer twist, to history…
Prior to the persecutions, healings were very common, especially during the reception of the Holy Eucharist. During the persecutions, we entered into a time where the focus was on Martyrdom. Suffering and dying for the faith. The Church focused in on the fact that a Martyr went straight to Heaven, no purgatory time at all. Suffering became a wonderful virtue in the eyes of God. At about this time, in history, the focus dropped off healing and toward suffering. Offering it to Jesus.
I would ask you to re-read St Thomas Aquinas’s Summa. You will confirm that you are, indeed wrong on this point.
(continued)
I expect that Steve 99 is going to follow up with outstanding answers to your questions. He knows his stuff. I hope you do not mind me tossing in some answers from my point of view.
By the way, you tend to use the greek term, Charismata, I use Charism. Since it is a bit confusing, how 'bout I use the term, Spiritual Gifts or just Gifts. Is that ok with you?
In your 1-3 you claim the “charismatic movement” (we call it the Catholic Charismatic Renewal or just CCR) blow off the gifts and the fruits. I am thinking you might mean the Old Testament Gifts? We do not blow them off at all, we value every gift of the Holy Spirit. These particular gifts are the ones that have been taught with the Sacrament of Confirmation. These were also Gifts given to the Old Testament folks. The CCR does focus on the CHRISTIAN GIFTS, the ones given freely to the Early Church but we still value the others. The Fruits are what we are tested by, the results of our life in the Holy Spirit. The Fruits are a top priority with us.
Ahh, you say you find the scripture “quite ambiguous”. Maybe that is why Jesus left us a teaching Church. We have Holy Mother Church to lead us and guide us. I mentioned 4 Holy Fathers who the Holy Spirit has sent to teach us who have all, embraced and encouraged these Spiritual Gifts and the CCR. These have been documented here in this thread.
I do appreciate and respect your nice posts, by the way.
Next is your historical references.
Being a teacher of Church and Bible History, you are now in a place where I feel quite comfortable. Steve is absolutely right where Constantine is concerned.
I would recommend you to the very fine book “Documents of the Christian Church” published by Oxford University Press.
To add a slightly newer twist, to history…
Prior to the persecutions, healings were very common, especially during the reception of the Holy Eucharist. During the persecutions, we entered into a time where the focus was on Martyrdom. Suffering and dying for the faith. The Church focused in on the fact that a Martyr went straight to Heaven, no purgatory time at all. Suffering became a wonderful virtue in the eyes of God. At about this time, in history, the focus dropped off healing and toward suffering. Offering it to Jesus.
I would ask you to re-read St Thomas Aquinas’s Summa. You will confirm that you are, indeed wrong on this point.
(continued)
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robertaf
Guest
Ahh the Saints. I have to disagree that the Spiritual Gifts are manifested in only a few Saints. I believe that they are manifested in all of them. We Charismatics do not pick and choose gifts or fruits. How would you know which Saints manifested particular gifts?
My own particular adopted Patron Saint is St Martin de Porres. When you read his life you will see many miracles associated with him. The same goes for such famous Saints as Padre Pio. It is because of the manifestations of such Gifts of the Spirit that they attract the attention of Holy Mother Church. Many were deeply Contemplative. I have known many many Charismatics whose prayer life led them into Contemplation and Holy Mysticism.
Sometimes these Spiritual Gifts become well known after the death of the Saint.
Please do not judge the fact that your Grandmother does not pray in tongues, prophesy or have the gift of healing in such a way. She sounds wonderful, blessed and Spirit Filled. She is manifesting the Fruits in abundance. We simply do not say what Gifts anyone has or should have.
My Italian Mother in law use to spend at least one hour every single day in her room “praying her Holy Cards” and Rosary. She had a list of folks that took up two or three pages of people she prayed for. She, like your grandma never missed Mass or Confession.
When she was in her mid 80s and was spending a week with us, she heard I was going to a Prayer meeting. She assumed it was a Rosary or something she was use to. She had NEVER heard of the Charismatic Renewal, never read the Scriptures, and in fact new nothing about the Bible. She had a 6th grade education and very little Religious Ed other than what her parents gave her but she was a truly Good Catholic.
At this particular time, she was suffering from a prolapsed bladder.
At any rate, we went through the prayer meeting, she was reading her cards and saying her Rosary, pretty much ignoring what the rest of us were doing.
When it was time, at the end to go up for individual prayer, she got up. When the Prayer Group leader asked her what she needed prayer for, she said it was none of his business, she was too embarrassed to mention her private condition. He layed hands on her, she was slain in the Spirit and came up praying in tongues. This an old Italian lady. She had no idea whatsoever about what happened to her.
Hope this helps you sort things out.
My own particular adopted Patron Saint is St Martin de Porres. When you read his life you will see many miracles associated with him. The same goes for such famous Saints as Padre Pio. It is because of the manifestations of such Gifts of the Spirit that they attract the attention of Holy Mother Church. Many were deeply Contemplative. I have known many many Charismatics whose prayer life led them into Contemplation and Holy Mysticism.
Sometimes these Spiritual Gifts become well known after the death of the Saint.
Please do not judge the fact that your Grandmother does not pray in tongues, prophesy or have the gift of healing in such a way. She sounds wonderful, blessed and Spirit Filled. She is manifesting the Fruits in abundance. We simply do not say what Gifts anyone has or should have.
My Italian Mother in law use to spend at least one hour every single day in her room “praying her Holy Cards” and Rosary. She had a list of folks that took up two or three pages of people she prayed for. She, like your grandma never missed Mass or Confession.
When she was in her mid 80s and was spending a week with us, she heard I was going to a Prayer meeting. She assumed it was a Rosary or something she was use to. She had NEVER heard of the Charismatic Renewal, never read the Scriptures, and in fact new nothing about the Bible. She had a 6th grade education and very little Religious Ed other than what her parents gave her but she was a truly Good Catholic.
At this particular time, she was suffering from a prolapsed bladder.
At any rate, we went through the prayer meeting, she was reading her cards and saying her Rosary, pretty much ignoring what the rest of us were doing.
When it was time, at the end to go up for individual prayer, she got up. When the Prayer Group leader asked her what she needed prayer for, she said it was none of his business, she was too embarrassed to mention her private condition. He layed hands on her, she was slain in the Spirit and came up praying in tongues. This an old Italian lady. She had no idea whatsoever about what happened to her.
Hope this helps you sort things out.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
hey robert,
Thanks for the post, Im finding this thread quite informative.
I apologize for my use of charismata, gifts will work fine.
regarding 1-3, I actually did not claim that you guys blow off the fruits and gifts, I said that from what I have seen (especially in protestant circles), It seems that these fall by the wayside because of emphasis on the more spectacular gifts, such as tongues or prophecy. Of course this is my opinion so you know what they say about those.
Now for scripture, I am glad that I am not bible alone because this stuff would be quite confusing. Steve quoted some verses giving examples of gifts. I merely stated that I found the passages far from descriptive.
Ill definitely pick up that book you mentioned. Once again though, I wasnt contesting the fact that there was a large influx of lukewarm believers. I want to know why the christianization of the Roman empire caused the manifestation of gifts to decline.
Now with regards to suffering. You say that the Church stressed martyrdom and suffering. Why would that have any effect on the graces that the Holy Ghost endows to people? I just dont get where your going with this.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
Ok Saints, Ill concede that, when I was writing that I was thinking specifically of tongues and prophecy.
Now with my examples of holy people, the reason I gave them was to specifically counter Steve’s post about people being open to the Holy Ghost as if only charismatics can know him. It seemed very elitest and exclusionary. Im sure he didnt mean for it to come off like charismatics are better than regular Chatholics, but thats what I responded to.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
With the saints i should have worded that better. Steve was using the saints as examples of the Gifts manifested after apostolic times. I tried to say that compared to the vast numbers of Catholics who were alive in the past 2000 years, the saints were quite few.
Now I also said that most of the saints (atleast most I have known, which Im sure pales to many of you) did not manifest these charisms during thier lives. Im not saying that No saints did. One of my faves is St Sharbel, he performed thousands of miracles within his lifetime. But what I am trying to get across, is that after Apostolic times these Gifts became quite extraordinary, and remained quite rare until the 19th century. Does that make sense?
Now in regards to my Grandma and other example of pious people I gave. Steve said a couple of times in his post about how everyone should be charismatic and also implied that If people are not manifesting the Gifts, they are not open to the Holy Ghost. I found this very elitest and exclusive, and quite rediculous, so i gave examples of people who do not manifest the gifts, but who, I would contend, are very open to the Holy Ghost. As far as sorting things out goes, I have no problem with the charismatic movement, I just wanted to learn a little about it.
R
robertaf
Guest
Hi again Delorean Boy
Great post! You explain yourself quite well.
You ask good questions and seem very open to explanations.
I have been extremely well pleased by Steves answers and examples but then that is me. Each person seems to hit it off with certain individuals.
I am glad you find something in what I write to you. I do not expect you to agree with everything but only to be open and that is what you appear to do. Maybe it is my own Grandma persona. You see, I am a 68 yr old Grandma of 4 grandkids. Have raised 2 sons and a couple of grandsons so tend to communicate fairly well with young men.
I believe that every single Priest is Charismatic. Does that surprise you? Charismatic is simply a label for folks who manifest the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I know one Priest, a very well known Charismatic writer who does not agree with this. He would say, one must be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be Charismatic that this is actually a stage of Spiritual Growth. He makes a good argument, too. He demonstrates how one receives a stage of Spiritual Growth with water Baptism and Confirmation, another when one experiences Metanoia or Heart Conversion and still another with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit where the extraordinary gifts are manifested. Although he doesn’t go any further than that, it might be said that there is still a further level, the Contemplative or Mystical level. I would agree with this.
However, to be more basic, I say every Priest is Charismatic because of this. The Bishop has laid hands on them and called down the Holy Spirit in a very special way, they have received Pastoral Gifts and then become true Miracle workers.
Jesus said, “what is the greater gift, to say rise up and walk or Your sins are forgiven, you?” This refers to the healing of the lame (or paralized) man. Jesus claimed that the forgiveness of sins is a greater miracle. This was prior to him speaking the words “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whoses sins you retain are retained.” Very profound.
However, those miraculous gifts do not stop there, but go far beyond that. The Pastoral Gift of calling down the Holy Spirit to change ordinary bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord. A true MIRACLE OF MIRACLES. THE GREATEST where man participates.
However, all Baptized Christians receive the Holy Spirit during the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. The sad thing is that for the most part, Catholics do not receive much in the way of Religious Ed, past the age of Confirmation. The learn precious little about the Gifts or the Fruits they have received.
Being a Religious Ed teacher, I can tell you that the lessons are not set up to teach either children or adults about these things.
That is the best reason I can give you… the whys where folks like your grandmother are concerned.
Great post! You explain yourself quite well.
You ask good questions and seem very open to explanations.
I have been extremely well pleased by Steves answers and examples but then that is me. Each person seems to hit it off with certain individuals.
I am glad you find something in what I write to you. I do not expect you to agree with everything but only to be open and that is what you appear to do. Maybe it is my own Grandma persona. You see, I am a 68 yr old Grandma of 4 grandkids. Have raised 2 sons and a couple of grandsons so tend to communicate fairly well with young men.
I believe that every single Priest is Charismatic. Does that surprise you? Charismatic is simply a label for folks who manifest the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I know one Priest, a very well known Charismatic writer who does not agree with this. He would say, one must be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be Charismatic that this is actually a stage of Spiritual Growth. He makes a good argument, too. He demonstrates how one receives a stage of Spiritual Growth with water Baptism and Confirmation, another when one experiences Metanoia or Heart Conversion and still another with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit where the extraordinary gifts are manifested. Although he doesn’t go any further than that, it might be said that there is still a further level, the Contemplative or Mystical level. I would agree with this.
However, to be more basic, I say every Priest is Charismatic because of this. The Bishop has laid hands on them and called down the Holy Spirit in a very special way, they have received Pastoral Gifts and then become true Miracle workers.
Jesus said, “what is the greater gift, to say rise up and walk or Your sins are forgiven, you?” This refers to the healing of the lame (or paralized) man. Jesus claimed that the forgiveness of sins is a greater miracle. This was prior to him speaking the words “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whoses sins you retain are retained.” Very profound.
However, those miraculous gifts do not stop there, but go far beyond that. The Pastoral Gift of calling down the Holy Spirit to change ordinary bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord. A true MIRACLE OF MIRACLES. THE GREATEST where man participates.
However, all Baptized Christians receive the Holy Spirit during the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. The sad thing is that for the most part, Catholics do not receive much in the way of Religious Ed, past the age of Confirmation. The learn precious little about the Gifts or the Fruits they have received.
Being a Religious Ed teacher, I can tell you that the lessons are not set up to teach either children or adults about these things.
That is the best reason I can give you… the whys where folks like your grandmother are concerned.
D
delorean_boy
Guest
Thankyou, for the kind post and being patient with me, I am an engineer not a writer.
We actually agree on quite a bit. What I am basically interested in is what I asked Steve. Why are these “gifts” batting 1000 so to speak within the charismatic circles, but nearly non existant outside of them? Example: I am at a regular sunday mass, no tongues. Charismatic meeting, tongues. Are the people somehow different. Are their prayers more sincere? What about the saints who had no manifestations of “gifts” in their lives?
Does it make sense what im asking?
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear DeLorean_Boy,
I read your post with deep compassion as I sensed your struggle to understand, yet I did not know how to reach out to you to satisfy your questions, since I am not a charismatic. I thought perhaps others might be better qualified.
As I thought about it a bit more, though, I remembered something that scripture said about there being many gifts that God gives us, but because they are not showy, people sometimes fail to consider them as being of much worth spiritually. St. Paul says it well in I Cor. 12:22, “Nay, much rather, those that seem the more feeble members of the body are more necessary, and those that we think the less honorable members of the body, we surround with more abundant honor, and our uncomely parts receive a more abundant comeliness; whereas, our comely parts have no need of it.”
Who can say then, that persons who are gifted with these less showy gifts mentioned in verse 28, such as teaching and administration, will receive less honor from the Lord for their service?
You are right about certain saints not demonstrating the power gifts, and one comes to mind especially – our holy Mother Teresa of Calcutta. What can be showy about helping poor indigent beggars on the street to die with dignity? What is showy about giving them a cup of broth or water? Or nursing their poverty-stricken heart, trying to make them feel loved and whole?
Your dear grandmother may not have been much aware of being gifted, but because you revere her, I believe she was exercising much charity and faith that you carry in your heart to this day. Isn’t that a wonderful gift? — the ability to inspire future generations to follow the Lord?
And so it is with many quiet souls who just live their lives in daily communion with the Lord - nobody special, huh? Other than to Christ and those whose lives they touch. There was a sad effect in the early days of the renewal that some who were baptized in the Spirit tended to look down on those ordinary folks as being less important to God, and “not with it” spiritually. Times have changed, and the majority have matured beyond this elitism, hopefully.
That is not to say the gifts are not important, nor that we should not ask the Lord to work in us for His glory through their use. Perhaps that is the whole thrust of the renewal - to become more aware of our deep need of the Holy Spirit and His gifts, in order to bring forth God’s Kingdom in our own little corner.
Be at peace with God’s blessing upon you.
http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole
I read your post with deep compassion as I sensed your struggle to understand, yet I did not know how to reach out to you to satisfy your questions, since I am not a charismatic. I thought perhaps others might be better qualified.
As I thought about it a bit more, though, I remembered something that scripture said about there being many gifts that God gives us, but because they are not showy, people sometimes fail to consider them as being of much worth spiritually. St. Paul says it well in I Cor. 12:22, “Nay, much rather, those that seem the more feeble members of the body are more necessary, and those that we think the less honorable members of the body, we surround with more abundant honor, and our uncomely parts receive a more abundant comeliness; whereas, our comely parts have no need of it.”
Who can say then, that persons who are gifted with these less showy gifts mentioned in verse 28, such as teaching and administration, will receive less honor from the Lord for their service?
You are right about certain saints not demonstrating the power gifts, and one comes to mind especially – our holy Mother Teresa of Calcutta. What can be showy about helping poor indigent beggars on the street to die with dignity? What is showy about giving them a cup of broth or water? Or nursing their poverty-stricken heart, trying to make them feel loved and whole?
Your dear grandmother may not have been much aware of being gifted, but because you revere her, I believe she was exercising much charity and faith that you carry in your heart to this day. Isn’t that a wonderful gift? — the ability to inspire future generations to follow the Lord?
And so it is with many quiet souls who just live their lives in daily communion with the Lord - nobody special, huh? Other than to Christ and those whose lives they touch. There was a sad effect in the early days of the renewal that some who were baptized in the Spirit tended to look down on those ordinary folks as being less important to God, and “not with it” spiritually. Times have changed, and the majority have matured beyond this elitism, hopefully.
That is not to say the gifts are not important, nor that we should not ask the Lord to work in us for His glory through their use. Perhaps that is the whole thrust of the renewal - to become more aware of our deep need of the Holy Spirit and His gifts, in order to bring forth God’s Kingdom in our own little corner.
Be at peace with God’s blessing upon you.
http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole
S
steve99
Guest
Wow, a lot of posts since I last looked at this thread. I think robertaf has covered the questions very well.
I don’t know about 1000! I’ve heard people talk about 20-30 charismatic gifts. But I think there can be too much emphasis on the “extraordinary” gifts like miracles and deliverance. There are what the CCC calls the “simple and humble” gifts like helping (1 Pet 4:11) and administration (Rom 12:7). These charismatic gifts are given to help us serve others in the church. As someone put it we are channels of God’s gifts to others. Many gifts are more the Holy Spirit enhancing natural talent in the service of the Church like the natural talent for helping, or administration or music. So these gifts may be being used regularly in your parish with people really putting that label on them.
Acts 13:1-3 “In the church at Antioch the following were prophets and teachers: Barnabus, Simeon called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. One day while they were offering worship to the Lord and keeping a fast, the Holy Spirit said, ‘I want Barnabus and Saul set apart for the work I have called them’. So it was that after fasting and prayer they laid their hands on them and sent them off”
I quote this to ask in how many parishes are there people who are recognised as prophets? How many people in the average parish seriously pray and fast before asking the Lord for anything?
“the charismatic renewal is a grace for the Church”
“clearly the charismatic renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church”
and they reiterate their own past commendations of the renewal for “the fruit of holiness and good works born in the lives of those who become involved in the movement”.
(I’m repeating quotes from an old booklet, I don’t have the actual Bishops statement in front of me).
It is important too not to equate possession of charismatic gifts with holiness. The sanctifying gifts are for our personal holiness and we should be open to the Holy Spirit giving and building up these gifts in us so that we grow in holiness. And I certainly would not want to imply that people who are not in charismatic renewal, or not comfortable with it, are not holy or not open to the Spirit. When I mentioned not being open to the Holy Spirit earlier I should have made it clear I was referring only in relation to the charismatic gifts.
And the Holy Spirit can work through us even if we are not very holy.
Code:
Here’s a few comments.
Code:
Why aren’t these gifts more manifest in our parishes at Sunday Mass?I quote this to ask in how many parishes are there people who are recognised as prophets? How many people in the average parish seriously pray and fast before asking the Lord for anything?
Code:
A few quotes from the USA Bishops’ Liaison Committee (1984):“clearly the charismatic renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church”
and they reiterate their own past commendations of the renewal for “the fruit of holiness and good works born in the lives of those who become involved in the movement”.
(I’m repeating quotes from an old booklet, I don’t have the actual Bishops statement in front of me).
It is important too not to equate possession of charismatic gifts with holiness. The sanctifying gifts are for our personal holiness and we should be open to the Holy Spirit giving and building up these gifts in us so that we grow in holiness. And I certainly would not want to imply that people who are not in charismatic renewal, or not comfortable with it, are not holy or not open to the Spirit. When I mentioned not being open to the Holy Spirit earlier I should have made it clear I was referring only in relation to the charismatic gifts.
And the Holy Spirit can work through us even if we are not very holy.
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear DeLorean_Boy,
As a footnote, I mention the superiority of prophecy, so loved by St. Paul in 1 Cor. 14:3, “But he who prophesies speak to men for edification and encouragement and consolation.” And he even teaches us to strive for this gift.
Common thinking about this gift is that a person has the ability to fortell future happenings, but this is not the meaning of St. Paul’s letter. Some who speak to others for their upbuilding and encouragement, are aware of a particular unction in their heart as the Spirit inspires their thoughts. They then speak out for the benefit of the hearer using their own composition of words – yet the thought comes from God.
On the other hand, there are multitudes of people who speak for God who are not aware or sensitive to this particular “anointing,” but they truly exercise the gift of prophecy in the sense of reaching out to build up their fellow man. I’m sure you can think of many examples of this, and probably know when God has touched you through another’s words.
I have loved for many years, the prayer of Tobias, Ch. 13:16, “And blessed shall they be that shall build thee up.” God’s ministry, par excellance!
Carole
As a footnote, I mention the superiority of prophecy, so loved by St. Paul in 1 Cor. 14:3, “But he who prophesies speak to men for edification and encouragement and consolation.” And he even teaches us to strive for this gift.
Common thinking about this gift is that a person has the ability to fortell future happenings, but this is not the meaning of St. Paul’s letter. Some who speak to others for their upbuilding and encouragement, are aware of a particular unction in their heart as the Spirit inspires their thoughts. They then speak out for the benefit of the hearer using their own composition of words – yet the thought comes from God.
On the other hand, there are multitudes of people who speak for God who are not aware or sensitive to this particular “anointing,” but they truly exercise the gift of prophecy in the sense of reaching out to build up their fellow man. I’m sure you can think of many examples of this, and probably know when God has touched you through another’s words.
I have loved for many years, the prayer of Tobias, Ch. 13:16, “And blessed shall they be that shall build thee up.” God’s ministry, par excellance!
Carole- Status