Charismatic Catholic Experiences

[dumspirospero]

I’ve talked to people that have gone to these masses and said that when the hands were laid on them, nothing happened…then people looked at them like they were a social philistine for not falling down and flopping around on the floor like the other people…Approved or not by the Church…I am very, very skeptical of this movement and I am not comfortable with it at all…My opinion always gets me flamed…but oh well, this is how I honestly feel…there is no need hiding it. However, I am not saying that the people involved are not excellent Catholics just trying to find the best way for them to have a fruitful relationship with God…that is not what I am saying…I just have doubts about the whole movement, especially where it is rooted.

catholicdude942:

I hate to start another thread, but I recently discovered this movement and I started wondering about something that hadn’t been answered. I’m wondering what happens at charismatic masses that triggers the slaying in the spirit and such. I mean it seems like these spiritual gifts happen to everyone. I’ve gone to so many traditional masses and have never seen such experiences even when people pray before the Blessed Sacrament. It’s almost like these masses are a sure fire way to get these gifts. I just do see why the gifts are given so gratuitously at these charismatic masses just by the laying of the hands. I was always under the impression that spiritual gifts were a rarity, but something must go on at those masses that causes a lot of these gifts. Is this just triggered by the laying of the hands and the praying? Not to sound cynical but isn’t it a possibility that some people are pretending to speak in tongues because it is expected of them. The whole falling back thing seems to me like something you would see on one of those TV shows. I mean I don’t know it just sounds like a few too many miracles happen at EVERY mass all around the country. It’s very possible that it’s all okay and everything I do not doubt that especially since the Pope is ok with it. I trust in the Holy Spirit but I know there are also many other spirits out there. That’s why they warn people against Ouija boards and centering prayer. I mean a lot of Catholics will tell you centering prayer is cool when it’s actually rooted in Eastern religions and focusing on the individual rather than God. I’ve never been to one of these masses I’m just judging my questions based on what I’ve read on this site and other places. Sorry if I seem cynical I’m just pointing out some of the doubts in my mind that make me hesitant. If you can help me learn more about this I’d be greatful. I’m also kind of wondering how Pope Benedict is going to feel about this movement and whether he will want to keep it given his conservative stance.

 

[dumspirospero]

I totally agree…IMHO I feel this movement was approved to retain “Catholics” who were about to leave the Church for the Pentecostal Church and other Protestant religions…therefore this movement was authorized as an attempt to keep them within the Catholic Church…I believe this is another unfortunate fruit of the proverbial “Spirit of Vatican II”.

Spooky7272:

IMHO, I would stay far, far away from the so-called “catholic” charismatic movement. This movement began in Protestant circles, and it has NO place in Catholicism. I think the whole thing is looney.
And a miracle DOES happen at every Mass: Our Lord Jesus Christ gives us His Body and Blood for our Food & Drink. Now THAT’s a real miracle.

 

[DavidB]

dumspirospero:

I totally agree…IMHO I feel this movement was approved to retain “Catholics” who were about to leave the Church for the Pentecostal Church and other Protestant religions…therefore this movement was authorized as an attempt to keep them within the Catholic Church…I believe this is another unfortunate fruit of the proverbial “Spirit of Vatican II”.

I disagree. While many Catholics who experienced the Baptism of the Spirit such as myself did, in fact, leave the Church for a Pentecostal denomination, it was mostly because of the way the Catholic Church handled it.

I had this amazing experience with God in being filled with His Spirit and now had a sudden and overwhelming need to pray and worship God in powerful and loving ways and I needed to hear strong scriptural teachings and be surrounded by active, enthusiastic believers . . . and I just couldn’t find kind any of that in the Catholic Church.

My parents pointed me in the direction of a Catholic Charismatic community called the Lamb of God, but they had been deemed cultish and were viewed with suspicion. So I had no vehicle in the Church to satisfy my new needs to draw close to God and to have fellowship with similarly inspired believers.

I accepted an invitation of some friends to attend a Pentecostal Church (Assembly of God) and so I did one day. I was totally blown away. People singing in joy to the Lord for an hour. People loving each other in Christ and sharing their faith in profound and enthusiastic ways. People who knew how to pray and would meet spontaneously to pray through the night togtehr as a social event. Wow. The difference between that and what I experienced in the Catholic Church was like night and day. I knew where I wanted to be and went there. And 22 years later, I have no regrets.

David

 

[PaulAckermann]

robertaf:

Padre Pio bi-located! That is cannot be anything other than a Holy Spirit gift.

How do you define the Mystical life? It is indeed a Spirit moving life.

The Mystical saints encountered a lot of mystical experiences such as bi-locations, trances, levitations, etc. But they were completely different than the modern-day charismatic.

1. The mystic did not seek these gifts. Instead, they desired the Giver of the gifts. St Teresa de Avila prayed that these gifts would be taken away. They saw these gifts as a temptation to pride and they accepted them very relucatantly.
2. They tried to hide these gifts to others. St Teresa prayed that the appearance of the stigmata be taken away.
3. These gifts only happened to those who were saints, not to common Christians such as us. St Teresa, in her Interior Castles, talked of these gifts only for those who are the last stages of achieving sainthood.
4. St Teresa warned that Satan can come as an angel of light. Satan can counterfeit everyone of those gifts. If those gifts appear without sainthood, there is reason to be suspicicous.
5. The saints taught that the road to spiriituality are the sacaraments. We are baptized into Christ at our water baptism. We are baptized in the Spirit through the laying on of hands at Confirmation. The Charimatic movement is trying to add another sacrament.

Also, genuine miracles recognized by the Church go through through thorough investigations. If there is any possible ntural explanation they are discounted. The mystical experiences of the saints - levitation. stimata, bi-location, etc cannot have any natural explanation. But all the mytstical experiences in the charismatic movement that I have seen when I was in it can be explained away naturally.

 

[nkelly]

Please see

tldm.org/directives/d14.htm

Regards,
Noel.

 

[DavidB]

PaulAckermann:

The Mystical saints encountered a lot of mystical experiences such as bi-locations, trances, levitations, etc. But they were completely different than the modern-day charismatic.

1. The mystic did not seek these gifts. Instead, they desired the Giver of the gifts. St Teresa de Avila prayed that these gifts would be taken away. They saw these gifts as a temptation to pride and they accepted them very relucatantly.
2. They tried to hide these gifts to others. St Teresa prayed that the appearance of the stigmata be taken away.
3. These gifts only happened to those who were saints, not to common Christians such as us. St Teresa, in her Interior Castles, talked of these gifts only for those who are the last stages of achieving sainthood.
4. St Teresa warned that Satan can come as an angel of light. Satan can counterfeit everyone of those gifts. If those gifts appear without sainthood, there is reason to be suspicicous.
5. The saints taught that the road to spiriituality are the sacaraments. We are baptized into Christ at our water baptism. We are baptized in the Spirit through the laying on of hands at Confirmation. The Charimatic movement is trying to add another sacrament.

Also, genuine miracles recognized by the Church go through through thorough investigations. If there is any possible ntural explanation they are discounted. The mystical experiences of the saints - levitation. stimata, bi-location, etc cannot have any natural explanation. But all the mytstical experiences in the charismatic movement that I have seen when I was in it can be explained away naturally.

Paul,

The thought that the gifts of the Spirit are just for a select few saints is not correct. For the first 3 centuries of the Church, the majority of ALL believers experienced these gifts as a normal course of their faith. For a number of reasons, starting about the 4th century, the gifts of the Spirit began to disappear rather quickly. Contributing factors such as the infusion of nominal Christians into the Church when Constantine opened the door to acceptance of the faith, the fall of the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages, plus a number of other factors including a perception that exhibiting the gifts was associated with saints and monks, fearful of being accused of “pride” deliberately stopped using the gifts and stopped praying for people to be healed.

There’s an excellent book on this subject by Francis MacNutt called “The Nearly Perfect Crime”.

Anyway, for those of us in mature, charismatic churches, I can tell you that the most convincing proof of God’s igfts are not tongues, it’s the healings. I’ve seen too many remarkable and scientifically unexplainable things occur in the area of healing prayer, too ever claim that the gifts are easily explained away. The gifts are valid, they are for ALL believers, and they are to be “earnestly” sought, as the Apostle Paul taught.

The view you’ve portrayed is a false humility and is scripturally wrong. Just read 1 Cor and see Paul say how we should seek the gifts and seek the greater gifts and he wants everyone to prophesy . . . that’s clearly in contrast to what you’ve portrayed.

David

 

[threej_lc]

PaulAckermann:

1. The mystic did not seek these gifts. Instead, they desired the Giver of the gifts. St Teresa de Avila prayed that these gifts would be taken away. They saw these gifts as a temptation to pride and they accepted them very relucatantly.

As is still the case with a properly-catechised charismatic. What appears as “seeking the gifts” is a seeking to be able to serve God and his people more completely. The majority of Charismatic I know keep VERY quiet about their gifts in fear of giving in to pride, and use them only when the service of God needs it.

1. These gifts only happened to those who were saints, not to common Christians such as us. St Teresa, in her Interior Castles, talked of these gifts only for those who are the last stages of achieving sainthood.

We are all sinners, and there is no way in which any of us can “earn” the gifts. They are gifts just because we can’t earn them, no matter how holy we are.

St Teresa warned that Satan can come as an angel of light. Satan can counterfeit everyone of those gifts. If those gifts appear without sainthood, there is reason to be suspicicous.

Agreed. If the gifts do not bring someone closer to Christ and to his church, then I’m very suspicious of their origin. However be careful in the use of “sanctity.” I’ve known many people who were converted and brought into the Catholic church and are now devout Catholics as a result of the calling of hte spirit in the renewal. To say that the spirit is false here because it only brought them into the church and didn’t send them to the convent is presumption.

The saints taught that the road to spiriituality are the sacaraments. We are baptized into Christ at our water baptism. We are baptized in the Spirit through the laying on of hands at Confirmation. The Charimatic movement is trying to add another sacrament.

The spirit also teaches the road to holiness is the church and her sacraments. Any charismatic that does not come into deeper communion and love with the chruch I do not trust. The movement never tried to add another sacrament. It only tries to make its members more aware of the grace they already recieved in the sacraments. The “Baptism in the spirit,” Which you are probably referring to, is in no way a sacrament. It is a sacramental. It is simply a prayer of consecration to the holy spirit, similar to the consecration to Mary or the Sacred Heart which have been around for centuries. They do not give us grace, they just help us to use and better appreciate the grace given us in the sacraments.

 

[threej_lc]

nkelly:

Please see

tldm.org/directives/d14.htm

Regards,
Noel.

This website attempts to debunk the Charismatic movement based on the “apparitions” at Bayside.

Not only was Bayside condemned by the Church as contrary to church teaching, the alleged “seer” has already admitted she made them up.

Josh

 

[Mordocai]

Perhaps us skeptics are the prophets giving the warnings?

Just something to think about.

Now, I have many questions.
What’s the purpose in praying in toungues? Is it a superior form of prayer? (such as praying the Rosary is a most powerful prayer) Why is it babbling? Why is it out loud? Does the one speaking in toungues control what is said (as in, when to speak and how loud it is etc.) or does the Spirit take over our will and do this for the person?

I pray for God to reveal to me His gifts that He’s letting me borrow for this life so that I may glorify Him more fully.

How does one test which gifts he has? How do you find out if you have the gift of toungues? Or of prophesy? (What are all these charismatic gifts? How do you know if you have them?)

Does the Church have an official statement on this “renewal”?

Mordocai

 

[threej_lc]

Perhaps us skeptics are the prophets giving the warnings?

A valid point. And one that us charismatics should remember to never, EVER put anything above obedience to the church and frequent reception of the sacrametns.

What’s the purpose in praying in toungues? Is it a superior form of prayer? (such as praying the Rosary is a most powerful prayer)

Actually, you nailed it right on. Praying in tongues is a method of prayer virtually identical to praying the rosary. In the rosary, we lovingly utter words given to us through mary, the church, and tradition, while our minds focus on the life of Christ. The rosary prayer is not focused on the words themselves that you are saying, but using the action of rote prayer to enter into a meditative state.

Praying in tongues is virtually identical. Instead of reciting rote prayer as a means of entering into spiritual meditation, we use syllables provided by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:

14 (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit 6 is at prayer but my mind is unproductive. 15 So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.

Why is it babbling?

All prayer is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can not pray on our own without it. Thus the Spirit inspires us to pray, but that prayer must first pass through our minds and be filtered into english. Unfortunately, our human language can not fully comprehend the prayer we are attempting to make all the time. Praying in tongues allows the prayer to bypass the mind, and utter our prayer in its raw form.

This is not unique to the human experience. (Oh gosh, I sound like Rahner there. Forgive me.) When we get a back rub that feels very nice, we will often give a little moan. That is our way of saying, “Ooh! That feels nice!” But our mouth, with the permission of our mind, states it in a very complete way without trying to find words to describe the sensation.

Romans 8:

26 In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.

Why is it out loud?

Well, same as the moaning example above. You can keep your volume low if you choose to, but because the action itself does not directly use the mind, you can’t do it mentally.

Does the one speaking in toungues control what is said (as in, when to speak and how loud it is etc.) or does the Spirit take over our will and do this for the person?

Ever had something so completely memorized that you could recite it in your sleep, to the point that you didn’t have to think about what you were saying at all, you could just say it? Its exactly like that. I can pray in my prayer language as soon as I choose to. I have full control over my vocalizations, its just I… almost by memory… know what I’m going to say just as I’m saying it.

Does the Church have an official statement on this “renewal”?

The church has no official documents pertaining to the renewal itself. However, there have been numerous public comments, etc, given by popes endorsing the renewal. I could find some if you are interested.

Josh

 

[Psalm_37_4-5]

I’m a little overwhelmed and not certain about this, but I have appreciated reading what people are contributing here. I experienced a charismatic Healing Mass last night for the first time and was prayed over by a priest who appeared to have been speaking in tongues.

I just called the parish where this took place and spoke with the priest there. He explained a few things.

1. yes, that priest who prayed over me does have the gift of speaking in tongues (while he himself, on the other hand does not and so was available for confessions instead).
2. no, there needed not be an interpreter for me there to interpret for me. It is not a “rule” that there be an interpreter there, especially during private prayer. Where the interpreter comes in is in say the pentecostal churches where someone speaks in tongues to a whole congregation and someone can stand up and interpret for all of them… that is where my idea of there having to be an interpreter came from…
3. I asked and he said that yes, when I started understanding what the priest was saying, it could possibly have been that I actually just began to hear/understand what he was saying, and he may have still been speaking in tongues. Like at Pentecost…or it could have been that the priest just took a “step back” and spoke in ways I could understand, as directed by/through the Holy Spirit.
4. Again, he reminded me of 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 which talks about the gifts of the Spirit.

Now, my priest did tell me ahead of time that whether people who rest in the Spirit are doing so because the Spirit is actually upon them in that way or if its more psychological, no one will know exactly from person to person. But, it is the belief of the Church that it is possible for people to speak in tongues, and have the Holy Spirit come to them in such a way that it causes this “fainting.” I watched it happen, and heard it… and whether everything I saw or heard was pure Spirit, I do believe it is POSSIBLE and perhaps that’s where the individual’s faith, experience and gifts lie… ? I don’t know this for sure, but I am going to keep trying to know.

Thanks to the OP for the post, and all the other good references.

 

[Listener]

dumspirospero:

I’ve talked to people that have gone to these masses and said that when the hands were laid on them, nothing happened…then people looked at them like they were a social philistine for not falling down and flopping around on the floor like the other people…Approved or not by the Church…I am very, very skeptical of this movement and I am not comfortable with it at all…My opinion always gets me flamed…but oh well, this is how I honestly feel…there is no need hiding it. However, I am not saying that the people involved are not excellent Catholics just trying to find the best way for them to have a fruitful relationship with God…that is not what I am saying…I just have doubts about the whole movement, especially where it is rooted.

I would like to present an analogy here. I have been to the Island of Maui, and I believe that it is one of the most beautiful places on earth. I will never forget the red sunset with silhouettes of the palm trees waving in the wind. I will never forget the beautiful blue ocean and the gorgeous flowers. If someone says to me, “I have been to Maui, and I think it is the ugliest place on Earth. I just don’t know why anyone would want to go there,” I could accept that. I would just think that this person had really strange tastes.

However, suppose someone said, “I have never been to Maui. I never want to go there. It really has to be a terrible place,” my reaction would be different. I would feel sad that he or she would miss the beautiful experience that I had on Maui.

The same thing is true of the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[holyspirit1985]

Listener:

I would like to present an analogy here. I have been to the Island of Maui, and I believe that it is one of the most beautiful places on earth. I will never forget the red sunset with silhouettes of the palm trees waving in the wind. I will never forget the beautiful blue ocean and the gorgeous flowers. If someone says to me, “I have been to Maui, and I think it is the ugliest place on Earth. I just don’t know why anyone would want to go there,” I could accept that. I would just think that this person had really strange tastes.

However, suppose someone said, “I have never been to Maui. I never want to go there. It really has to be a terrible place,” my reaction would be different. I would feel sad that he or she would miss the beautiful experience that I had on Maui.

The same thing is true of the Charismatic Renewal.

i like the analogy!! it’s very true!

 

[Makerteacher]

lydiabeeuk:

Hi, is the catholic charismatic movement happening largely in America or all around the world? I’m from UK, would love to check out one of these masses, but have never heard of anything like this around

The Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church is a global movement. It is a recognized and growing lay apostolate movement of the Faith. Some Charismatic Catholics work in their local parishes and communities, some serve in various mission outreaches (there’s amazing things happening in Argentina right now!), and some have elected to live in a more formalized arrangement called a Covenant Community. I am a Catholic Charismatic covenant community member in Dallas Texas, but there are many such communities worldwide.

Here’s a link to the international website of those who choose to live out their apostolate in a covenant community:
catholicfraternity.net/

And those who do not live in a covenant community also have a site. The two groups are closely linked and work together.
iccrs.org/

Apparently there is a regularly functioning charismatic group in both the Hexham and Newcastle Dioceses. Just phone their Diocesan offices for info. or go here
ccr-ne.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

There is a Catholic Charismatic Covenent Community in Surrey, UK. Here’s a link to their website, which includes directions and several other offerings.
cor-lumenchristi.org/

Here’s a quote from their website about when they meet:

Our Monthly Community Meetings
These include house groups, an evening of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, a night of outreach called YES!, team meetings and a gathering once a month for our Sunday mass in the community chapel followed by an Agape meal. Most members meet with another member of the community once a month for support, encouragement and formation. We meet together on many other occasions socially or for missionary purposes.

Hope this helps!

 

[dumspirospero]

I guess I will just have to be called old fashioned and be like all the other Catholics prior to the CCR…they must have been doing something right…roughly 1970 years of Tradition, history, etc…I don’t care too much to be mixed up with movements that have their roots in Protestant Pentecostal Churches.

Listener:

I would like to present an analogy here. I have been to the Island of Maui, and I believe that it is one of the most beautiful places on earth. I will never forget the red sunset with silhouettes of the palm trees waving in the wind. I will never forget the beautiful blue ocean and the gorgeous flowers. If someone says to me, “I have been to Maui, and I think it is the ugliest place on Earth. I just don’t know why anyone would want to go there,” I could accept that. I would just think that this person had really strange tastes.

However, suppose someone said, “I have never been to Maui. I never want to go there. It really has to be a terrible place,” my reaction would be different. I would feel sad that he or she would miss the beautiful experience that I had on Maui.

The same thing is true of the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[dumspirospero]

I can’t believe you traded the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of your Lord Jesus Christ, who is present in the Most Blessed Sacrament for a group of people who like to get together and sing…So this is what Church is all about for some people now…Singing and Social events…and we wonder why the state of The Church is in such bad shape…

DavidB:

I disagree. While many Catholics who experienced the Baptism of the Spirit such as myself did, in fact, leave the Church for a Pentecostal denomination, it was mostly because of the way the Catholic Church handled it.

I had this amazing experience with God in being filled with His Spirit and now had a sudden and overwhelming need to pray and worship God in powerful and loving ways and I needed to hear strong scriptural teachings and be surrounded by active, enthusiastic believers . . . and I just couldn’t find kind any of that in the Catholic Church.

My parents pointed me in the direction of a Catholic Charismatic community called the Lamb of God, but they had been deemed cultish and were viewed with suspicion. So I had no vehicle in the Church to satisfy my new needs to draw close to God and to have fellowship with similarly inspired believers.

I accepted an invitation of some friends to attend a Pentecostal Church (Assembly of God) and so I did one day. I was totally blown away. People singing in joy to the Lord for an hour. People loving each other in Christ and sharing their faith in profound and enthusiastic ways. People who knew how to pray and would meet spontaneously to pray through the night togtehr as a social event. Wow. The difference between that and what I experienced in the Catholic Church was like night and day. I knew where I wanted to be and went there. And 22 years later, I have no regrets.

David

 

[Annunciata]

DavidB:

…
I accepted an invitation of some friends to attend a Pentecostal Church (Assembly of God) and so I did one day. I was totally blown away. People singing in joy to the Lord for an hour. People loving each other in Christ and sharing their faith in profound and enthusiastic ways. People who knew how to pray and would meet spontaneously to pray through the night togtehr as a social event. Wow. The difference between that and what I experienced in the Catholic Church was like night and day. I knew where I wanted to be and went there. And 22 years later, I have no regrets.

David

I can’t believe that you left the Catholic Church for social get togethers! You obviously didn’t understand what you had…
This happened to many dissatisfied Catholics back in the 70’s when we began our prayer group in our parish…The ones who couldn’t have their own way…left for the Pentecostals…

You know…it’s indeed a little tough to be a good Catholic…but our blessed Lord didn’t say it was going to be easy…

 

[dumspirospero]

Amen to that…you always have valuable insight Annunciata

Annunciata:

I can’t believe that you left the Catholic Church for social get togethers! You obviously didn’t understand what you had…
This happened to many dissatisfied Catholics back in the 70’s when we began our prayer group in our parish…The ones who couldn’t have their own way…left for the Pentecostals…

You know…it’s indeed a little tough to be a good Catholic…but our blessed Lord didn’t say it was going to be easy…

 

[dumspirospero]

Catholicdude…I was hoping you could tell me why you made such a poor trade off…I would love to know.

dumspirospero:

I can’t believe you traded the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of your Lord Jesus Christ, who is present in the Most Blessed Sacrament for a group of people who like to get together and sing…So this is what Church is all about for some people now…Singing and Social events…and we wonder why the state of The Church is in such bad shape…

 

[Listener]

I had a very positive Charismatic Catholic experience today. The closing Mass for the Charismatic Conference in Everett, WA, was at noon today in Immaculate Conception Church. The priest who said Mass was Father Tom Forrest, a Redemptorist priest. Here is a quote from the program:

“He has been involved in Catholic Charismatic Renewal since 1971 and served as director of the International Office for CCR from 1978 to 1984. He has spoken in 105 different countries and his articles and books have been translated into many languages. He is currently the International Director of Evangelization 2000, a Catholic effort to promote Church renewal through prayer, proclamation of the Word and the formation of a more evangelistically activated people of God. Fr. Tom is a recipient of the Papal Medal, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (for the Church and the Pope).”

Wow! That’s a mouthful, especially for those of you who don’t think that the Pope approves of the Charismatic Renewal. The man looked very old, and he could preach almost like Billy Graham. I saw him for a minute afterward and had him give me a blessing–people were lining up for this.

I came home feeling very blessed, peacful, and refreshed. Unfortunately, I couldn’t make it to the rest of the conference. If anyone here did, it would make a nice subject for this thread.