Charismatic Catholic Experiences

[tgerlinger143]

steve99:

Excellently put.:clapping:
I hope you haven’t copyrighted this because I’m going to pinch it and use it on other occasions to explain Charismatic Renewal

And I am pinching this from you: "This is what Yahweh asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. " (Micah 6:8
Teresa

 

[threej_lc]

robertaf:

Also seems someone is too lazy to go and drag it back up. LOL

Why are my ears burning?
Josh

 

[jabresnahan]

I grew up in the church, and like most of my friends, we went through the motions because our parents made us. In coledge I drifted away. (why attend a meaningless cerimony?)

Roughly 17 years later I attended a revival at a Weslyan church.(bible believing prtestant). For reasons I don’t understand, I stood up at the invitation, and had hands laid on me. The minister said something that I could not hear. I felt mysefl floating backwards. And I met love on the floor. I don’t know how long I was on the floor, but I was washed with a love that was indescribable. For at least 6 months after that I had a love affair with the creator of the universe in such an intesnse way that it was hard to do my job as an engineer. I often wondered if a demon had been cast out.

Whats funny is after another 15 years I find, (is this possible?) myself becomming more and more feeling and less anylitical.

After being a Baptist and chasimatic (at different times) I realized that sometimes God has to take someone like me the long way around to get on the right path.

Oh by the way I was never a great one for touges. But one night, driving home from the revival I asked, how come every one else has tougues but me? Three sylables came to mind:
Sasha cum se.

That was in 1990. My wife and I were given an adoption referal for Alexander (from kazickstahn) in 2004. His nickname of couse is Sasha, and he was born in 2000, ten years after his name came to mind.

To me it seemed the choice was perfectly clear. Would you believe after over a year of being home, our son is ranked some where above the 90th percentile for inteligence. I don’t know why, but it seems like this gift was preordained, the perfect match in spite of us. I can’t see or hear in him anything but a red blooded american boy.

Maybe I’m saying you can’t put God in a box. He may take you one way and me another. With me, I had to stick my hands in His side before I WOULD BELEIVE. The amazing part of this is He put up with me and continues to do so.

There are so many things in my life that lined up, almost impossibly, to get him here.

OBTW I apoligize, engineers can’t spell without a spellcheck

I came back to the church almost 2 years ago. I’m a kid in a candy store looking at the wisdom of 2000 years. Struggling with limited time and how to budget it. Free of a religious system that had no power.

I don’t know where to begin teaching my son all that the Lord has done for us. It’s exausting trying to keep up with a 5 year old in kindergarten.

I hope some of that made sense.

 

[steve99]

jabresnahan:

I grew up in the church, and like most of my friends, we went through the motions because our parents made us. In coledge I drifted away. (why attend a meaningless cerimony?)

Roughly 17 years later I attended a revival at a Weslyan church.(bible believing prtestant). For reasons I don’t understand, I stood up at the invitation, and had hands laid on me. The minister said something that I could not hear. I felt mysefl floating backwards. And I met love on the floor. I don’t know how long I was on the floor, but I was washed with a love that was indescribable. For at least 6 months after that I had a love affair with the creator of the universe in such an intesnse way that it was hard to do my job as an engineer. I often wondered if a demon had been cast out.

Whats funny is after another 15 years I find, (is this possible?) myself becomming more and more feeling and less anylitical.

After being a Baptist and chasimatic (at different times) I realized that sometimes God has to take someone like me the long way around to get on the right path.

Oh by the way I was never a great one for touges. But one night, driving home from the revival I asked, how come every one else has tougues but me? Three sylables came to mind:
Sasha cum se.

That was in 1990. My wife and I were given an adoption referal for Alexander (from kazickstahn) in 2004. His nickname of couse is Sasha, and he was born in 2000, ten years after his name came to mind.

To me it seemed the choice was perfectly clear. Would you believe after over a year of being home, our son is ranked some where above the 90th percentile for inteligence. I don’t know why, but it seems like this gift was preordained, the perfect match in spite of us. I can’t see or hear in him anything but a red blooded american boy.

Maybe I’m saying you can’t put God in a box. He may take you one way and me another. With me, I had to stick my hands in His side before I WOULD BELEIVE. The amazing part of this is He put up with me and continues to do so.

There are so many things in my life that lined up, almost impossibly, to get him here.

OBTW I apoligize, engineers can’t spell without a spellcheck

I came back to the church almost 2 years ago. I’m a kid in a candy store looking at the wisdom of 2000 years. Struggling with limited time and how to budget it. Free of a religious system that had no power.

I don’t know where to begin teaching my son all that the Lord has done for us. It’s exausting trying to keep up with a 5 year old in kindergarten.

I hope some of that made sense.

Dear jabresnahan - thank you for sharing that with us. God certainly does work in ways that are mysterious to us, at least at the time although they may make sense later. He calls us in different ways, down paths that are right for us at the time, but always leading to him if we follow his call.

 

[InnocentIII]

Psalm45:9:

I have had a similar experience. What you describe are authentic gifts of the spirit, but just as you said, these gifts are rare. This is where I get in trouble with Charismatics. As scripture states in order for tounges to be an authentic gift, there must be someone there who can interpret the tounges. Like on the first Pentecost, everyone could understand what the Apostles were saying. If no one can understand that what the people are shouting come from their exstatic emotions, not the spirit.

I will admit to being a sceptic on the Charismatic Renewal although we have a strong group in our parish and they are very committed to the Church. However I have always been most concerned by the use of tongues as a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The famous description of Pentecost mentions a number of things that I have not seen at Charismatic masses - such as a raoring wind and cloven flames on people’s heads. Instead people fall down (not mentioned in Acts) and calling out loudly in unrecognisable languages. The Acts stroy makes it clear that the Apostles spoke in other tongues, meaning other languages and that when the people rushed over every man heard them speak in his own language, in other words the gift had a purpose - to enable the apostles to preach to the many Jews “out of every nation” in Jerusalem at the time. The tongues spoken at Charismatic services in my experience have served no purpose other than to signify an individuals “baptism in he Holy Spirit”. The Church has always had individuals who have experienced ecstasies but this was an individual experience - where the charismatic experience is a sort of holus bolus baptism that requires a group atmosphere. All my charismatic friends tell how they became “baptised” and in every case it was at a charismatic gathering. I am also concerned by the tendancy of the Charismatic Renewal to work with other charismatics for unity. Listening to them it sometimes seems that Charismatics want to unify the Catholic Church with the Protestants in a Charismatic church rather than working to bring all people into the one Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not deny the validity of all charismatic experiences but I do treat them with great caution rather like the great St Theresa of Avila who though a mystic had little time for ecstasies.

 

[cheddarsox]

It is my understanding that the praying in tongues is not the experience of speaking in another language and having someone else interpret, but a prayer from the soul that is beyond the words of our regular human language.

It does not require “a group atmosphere” to occur, nor is it “proof” of any special gift. I and some of my friends pray in tongues when alone. It is a prayer to the divine, not a show of any particular gift or specialness on the part of the person praying.

I do experience a special feeling of “flow” as the utterances pour out of me, because I am holding nothing back. I am “speaking” the most deep and true expressions of my soul, unhampered by the inability of words to express the nature of my relationship with the divine.

I cannot translate word for word what my prayers mean, but I am always aware of their nature. Sometimes praise, sometimes gratitude, sometimes longing, etc. Also, these prayers are not necessarily accompanied by falling to the ground, dancing, ecstatic behavior, they have many moods, they can be quiet and worshipful or joyful and accompanied by movement.

As far as being skeptical because charismatics aren’t moved to pray in tongues during proper Mass, I suspect that many do, but perhaps quietly, just between them and God. In a closet, so to speak, though among people.

Praying in tongues can be likened to the Rosary, in that it can be done loudly, in a group with a leader calling out the first part of a prayer, quietly, even during Mass, alone with the beads, or even without the beads at all. And most people have a way in which they feel most comfortable participating, and others who feel uncomfortable with some ways. This doesn’t make praying the Rosary wrong or suspect.

My mother loves the rosary and prays it quietly and often. She is driven to distraction by the Rosary group which meets each morning after Mass and bangs their beads around and shouts out their prayers. But it is the same rosary, merely different styles of presentation.

cheddar

 

[InnocentIII]

DavidB:

I disagree. While many Catholics who experienced the Baptism of the Spirit such as myself did, in fact, leave the Church for a Pentecostal denomination, it was mostly because of the way the Catholic Church handled it.

Here is my first problem. St Paul says “For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body”. Now that body is Holy Mother Church founded by Our Lord on the rock of Peter. How then can the gift of the Hoy Spirit lead us to leave the body that Christ founded? Regardless of how the “Catholic Church handled it” the Holy Spirit cannot lead us to abandon Christ’s Hoy Bride if it is truly the Holy Spirit that we experience.

I had this amazing experience with God in being filled with His Spirit and now had a sudden and overwhelming need to pray and worship God in powerful and loving ways and I needed to hear strong scriptural teachings and be surrounded by active, enthusiastic believers . . . and I just couldn’t find kind any of that in the Catholic Church.

Here is my second problem. Again St Paul says But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body as it has pleased him and “there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another”. But you are saying you wish only to be surrounded by those of like spirituality and that is schism, the setting apart of the members of the Church according to their “gifts”. And you finally say you could not find what you needed in the Catholic Church, thereby implying that the Church does not have the gifts of the Spirit.

Overall I find the Charismatic Renewal, while professing great loyalty to the Church works towards its own vision of the Church which is not always in accord with the teachings of the Church. One thing that concerns me is the tendancy among our charismatics (this may only be a local thing) to mimic the actions of the priesthood when the Church teaches that the priesthood is set apart and granted those gifts through the laying on of hands that St Paul speaks of.

Again I do not wish to deny the gifts given by the Holy Spirit as many saints have had them and had them confirmed by the Church. It is the “movement” aspect of the CCR that worries me and its setting up of a parallel structure to the Church. And I know that charismatics will say that this is not true but our little group at least maintains close links with charismatic groups in non-catholic churches and promotes unity conferences based on charismatic spirituality, both of which seem to me to be acting parallel to the Church and placing the Church in the position of being just nother denomination.

 

[InnocentIII]

DavidB:

Paul,

The thought that the gifts of the Spirit are just for a select few saints is not correct. For the first 3 centuries of the Church, the majority of ALL believers experienced these gifts as a normal course of their faith.

What evidence do you have for this? Do you have actual numbers? or is this just an ambit claim?

For a number of reasons, starting about the 4th century, the gifts of the Spirit began to disappear rather quickly. Contributing factors such as the infusion of nominal Christians into the Church when Constantine opened the door to acceptance of the faith, the fall of the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages, plus a number of other factors including a perception that exhibiting the gifts was associated with saints and monks, fearful of being accused of “pride” deliberately stopped using the gifts and stopped praying for people to be healed.

Again what evidence do you have for this other than assertion?
And did not St Paul himself say 'but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they sahll cease;whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done way with".

Anyway, for those of us in mature, charismatic churches, I can tell you that the most convincing proof of God’s igfts are not tongues, it’s the healings. I’ve seen too many remarkable and scientifically unexplainable things occur in the area of healing prayer, too ever claim that the gifts are easily explained away. The gifts are valid, they are for ALL believers, and they are to be “earnestly” sought, as the Apostle Paul taught.

So on the basis of what you are saying those churches which claim to heal through charismatic prayer have convincing proof of God’s gifts? This smacks of denying the one true Church. Eually are the miracles of Lourdes the outcome of the Holy spirit or of the intercession of Our Lady? I do not dent that God hears the prayers of many, not just Catholics nor of Christians, but He has still left us His Church to fully express His divine Will here on earth. Suerly if the Holy Spirit is speaking so strongly to those in the charismatic movement they would all be flooding into the True Church.

 

[steve99]

St. Paul says “I should like you all to have the gift of tongues” (1Cor 14:5)

There are also two kinds of tongues. There are tongues, often called ‘prayer tongues’ that are as cheddarsox describes for personal and group prayer.
Then there are ‘prophetic tongues’ which St. Paul talks about particularly in, for example, 1 Cor 12:10 & 12:30, and in more detail in 1 Cor14:27-33

The CCR is not a “movement” in the same sense as say Opus Dei, Focolare, or Neo-Catechumenate. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. It does not set up parallel structures to the Church, but seeks to be fully part of the Church. This is why is does not have a structure as such. There is no membership, there are no leaders with any authority to direct people (not in the same way that there are in the movements such I have named above). There are International, national (and sometimes diocesan) “service committes” whose role is to serve and help the renewal, but this is not an authority or hierarchy structure.

In, I think it was 1998, there was a gathering of the new “movements” in Rome in the prescence of the Pope. Each gave an address. Charles Whitehead, on behalf of the CCR, also spoke, but not with the others. This was because CCR is not a “movement”.
I hope that helps top clarify things a little,

 

[robertaf]

Hi

Why tongues is always the issue with the Charismatic Renewal, I will never understand. It is such a small part of the whole thing.

At any rate, there is more than two types of tongues.
In fact, scripture says there is a variety of tongues. See I Corinth. 12 : 10 …to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

There is the tongues that were given at Pentecost where folks speak in different languages that others understand. I have seen this gift in action over the years. It appears to be somewhat rare.

There is tongues where a word or prophesy is spoken in a tongue with an interpreter. I have also seen this one in action.
This one also seems rare.

There is singing and Praising God in Tongues. This is very common and the one you see most often.
This is either close to or the same gift as the tongues used when we are interceding and allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us in “groanings and utterings we do not understand, when we, ourselves do not know how to pray.”

There are variations of some of these, as well. Most Charismatics have seen a number of variations.
We have a lady in our Prayer group who receives prophesy in tongues and she interprets as well. It flows as smooth as honey. No stumbling or stuttering.

When St Paul said tongues were the least of the gifts, he was comparing it with the gift of prophesy.

There are many good books written on the subject, written by folks who have been involved and studied the subject for years.
I recommend checking them out and don’t take all your information from folks with little experience or knowledge.

 

[BeautifyU]

Exporter:

The following by DavidB,
“. Even Father Amorth, the Vatican exorcist, validated the Charismatic experience in his books saying he knows that Charismatics are particularly successful in exorcisms and deliverance prayers and he encouraged the Church to embrace and expand the experience. If he suspected it was evil, he never would have made such endorsements.”

---

I have read both of Father Amorth’s books.

HE DID NOT SAY THAT CHARISMATICS ARE SUCCESSFUL IN EXORCISMS. If you read carefully you would know that it is only a Priest who was directed by his Bishop who will have authority over Satan and his demons. Further, the precise invocations and prayers that have been proven are to be used. Amorth says to not ad lib. An excorism is to be done by a duly appointed Priest, not a layman.

From your post I can tell that you swallowed the Charismatic movement - hook line and sinker. You made statements but didn’t give a Biblical nor a statement from Tradition to justify that movement.

As a realist who has experienced the charismatic first hand i must speak in defense of this. I can tell you, honestly, it is very real. The Holy Spirit has gifted these priests, i don’t know why or how, but it’s beautiful, pure, and miraculous. I have a dear friend who is a charismatic priest whose ministry has changed my lifeand countless others all over the word during his missionary work. Check out his site - search Father McAlear’s Ministry of Hope and Healing, and just read his bio. That alone is pretty impressive, but you must attend a healing mass to really know what I mean. Take it from me,one who is not quick to “swallow hook line and sinker”, his touch makes you drop to the floor, and it’s a beautiful, loving, emotional experience. Learn more about it, especially if you need a miracle of faith.

 

[BeautifyU]

InnocentIII:

What evidence do you have for this? Do you have actual numbers? or is this just an ambit claim?

Again what evidence do you have for this other than assertion?
And did not St Paul himself say 'but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they sahll cease;whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done way with".

So on the basis of what you are saying those churches which claim to heal through charismatic prayer have convincing proof of God’s gifts? This smacks of denying the one true Church. Eually are the miracles of Lourdes the outcome of the Holy spirit or of the intercession of Our Lady? I do not dent that God hears the prayers of many, not just Catholics nor of Christians, but He has still left us His Church to fully express His divine Will here on earth. Suerly if the Holy Spirit is speaking so strongly to those in the charismatic movement they would all be flooding into the True Church.

This is a Catholic movement, therefore it is within the one true church. Be open to it, it’s very real and powerful!

 

[InnocentIII]

BeautifyU:

This is a Catholic movement, therefore it is within the one true church. Be open to it, it’s very real and powerful!

Actually this is what concerns me most. Were it just a Catholic movement I would say yes it is truly an expression of the faith even though it is not my expression. However, the Catholic charismatic movement is part of a much wider movement thatn encompasses Protestant communities as well as the Church. The question then arises with whom do your loyalties lie - the Church or the movement broadly defined.

And in case you think I am just being curmdgeonly - I know of a Catholic charismatic group that worships at mass on Sundays but spends most weekdays at charismatic prayer services involving several denominations. I think there is a real danger that the charismatic movement will forget that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ and see it as simply one church among many and that this will lead to the false ecumenism of trying to blend all denominations (including the Church itself) in a syncretic Christianity built around a common charismatic core belief in the Holy Spirit.

Please do not think that I am accusing catholic charismatics per se of being disloyal to the Church, but I do have legitimate concerns about where it may lead.

 

[bekalc]

My Mom and Grandma were in the CCR movement when it began, and they left the Church completely. I was raised Pentecostal, but in high school walked a way. In college I came back to the Lord and was involved with the Methodists but retained my Pentecostal identity… (I did go to a Catholic high school for 2 years.) Because I wanted to be a missionary, still do I choose to attend a Pentecostal seminary. I wanted to learn what it meant to be Pentecostal and the theology behind it… Although I think my interdenominational experience awakened me to the problem of Christian unity…

It was one day sitting in class, discussing the issue of Communion which started me on the path towards Catholicism. (I think two years of Catholic religion class helped.) The professor told us the text wasn’t clear on whether we were take the body and blood of Jesus literally or figuratively, so we’d have to “choose.” The thing that bothered me wasn’t that I held strongly to a particular position, but the idea that the Bible might not be one hundred percent clear on which way to interpret. I took it seriously because I knew that this caused some Christians from not taking communion with other Christians. I didn’t think this was an issue where Jesus wanted us to “choose for ourselves.” And all that went through my mind was that Jesus words were probably clear to the Apostles and the Apostle’s followers, and if we want to know the correct way to interpret, we should go to the writings of the early Church.

It was at that moment that I rejected outright Sola Scriptura…And my mind started seriously saying The Catholics might be right. A year later, and I’m now enrolling myself in RCIA classes.

I will say this though, My mom and my Grandmother, nice Christian people, are very upset about this turn of events. They talk a lot about how they want me “to be free of the burden of Catholicism…” They feel their years of experience in Catholicism should be a lesson to me that it doesn’t work. But my feeling is that neither one of them, really gave the Catholic Church’s teaching a chance. They just said it took me this long to be converted so Catholicism must be wrong…

The danger with the Catholic Charismatic movement is that it can enclose themselves away from other Catholic groups, and perhaps hanging out too much with other groups of Christians. I love my Protestant friends, but I think their is really a spirtual issue dividing Protestants from Catholics…

I also think that while I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I believe these gifts are for every Christian. Their is so much more to being a Christian then the gifts of the Holy Spirit,and I think my what my Methodist Campus minister was trying to tell me which is their is more to theology then just one experience is right. The gifts are for every Christian and they should be encouraged, but I think its dangerous to seperate gifted Christians from “Non” gifted Christians. Even my the dean at my former seminar talked about this; how at times Pentecostals can make themselves come accross as superior, when its not the case at all. As he said, Just because the baptism made me a “better Christian” doesn’t mean I’ m a better Christian then you. And really their are different gifts of the Spirit, some are more quiter then others. I think sometimes the fancy ones can get emphasized to much…

I will probably get involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement. But I think I’m probably still a bit of a Traditionalists too. I was even more of a Traditionalist/Conservative when I was Pentecostal.

I’m just kind of saying this to caution people. The Catholic Charismatic movement while good, has led people out of the Church… I guess it just depends on why people are there? Are they just looking for an experience??? This being said I know the gifts of the Spirt are for every Christian…But I’ve come to the point where I also believe in the absolute necessity of apostolic succession.

 

[steve99]

There seem to be some strong anti-CCR views based on personal negative experiences or on hearsay of such. And I am sure there are sometimes problems. However we should be very careful not to exaggerate these and not to dismiss a whole area of Church life because of a few mistakes.

We do not dismiss the whole of the episcopy because a few bishops who have made mistakes (sometimes serious) in their handling of paedophile priests, or for an immoral liaison with a woman. Similarly we do not condemn the whole of the priesthood for similar errors.

People make mistakes, people sin. Problems arise because of poor leadership, lack of Pastoring, or whatever in many areas of Church life.

Also it is all too easy to focus on the negative and ignore the positive. The fruits of Renewal are considerable. For example I am told that at least half of all vocation in France come from the new charismatic communities such as the Beatitudes and Community Emmanuel. Whereas in the West religious orders are shrinking, charismatic ones are growing.

I, and many others, can witness to a deepening of relationship with God, a greater desire to worship, read the scripture and pray, which have come coming from an awakening of real faith in Christ through the CCR.

Also I think people sometimes put onto CCR things that have not been said, particularly I have seen accusations that charismatics say, or imply, that the (charismatic) gifts of the Spirit are only given to them. This is simply not true. CCR does not say this sort of thing.

The CCR has not led people out of the Church. CCR is not a Pied Piper! People may have left because they find something missing in the Church that they find elsewhere, for example joyful singing and worship, good Bible teaching, but don’t blame the CCR for this.

 

[bekalc]

Steve, I’m not really blaming CCR. I know their are plenty of Catholic Charismatics that staid. My mother and Grandmother made their own choices.

In many ways I am thankful to the Catholic Charismatic movement because before my mom and Grandmother were merely just going through the motions and didn’t really know Jesus.

HOWEVER, I’m saying their are good and bad. I think part of the problem was that my mom and Grandmother only hung out in the Catholic Charismatic movements, in their minds their was an us versus them mentality. She and those around her hung out with a lot of Protestants too, and they began to feel like they must change the Church…

I think the Catholic Charismatic movement is a good thing, I’m still Charismatic… But I think as long as they people in the movement don’t make themselves into another Church. And the people in the movement participate in the Catholic life as a whole…

That’s all I was trying to say. I was not dismissing the movement. And your right some of the reasons my family left had do with worship and Biblical preaching. But I think a part of the problem was no one really stressed to them, why they should remain Catholic…

The only thing I am cauntion is being only part of the Charismatic movement in the Church.

 

[Dorothy]

“bekalc”

<<I think the Catholic Charismatic movement is a good thing, I’m still Charismatic… But I think as long as they people in the movement don’t make themselves into another Church. And the people in the movement participate in the Catholic life as a whole…>>

I agree with you wholeheartedly. And many Catholics do not know enough about their faith, unfortunately, and can be led astray without correct spiritual direction in the CCR. Suddenly, they may think that they do not need the Sacraments, and the Eucharist just fades into the background.

Fortunately, this is not only the case. In my area in the CCR there is a great focus on the Mass as the central act of worship in our Church. We have a priest spiritual director for the CCR here who answers to our Bishop with regard to giving spiritual direction to the renewal here. Every other month leaders and core members from the various prayer groups in our diocese meet in a centrally located place with the priest spiritual director, and discuss problems, how to improve, etc.

At our yearly weekend conferences in January we have Mass on Saturday morning, and on Sunday morning our Bishop presides over the Mass. On Saturday evening for the past several years we have a procession of the Blessed Sacrament all around the conference room, with about four hundred people present. Soft music is played in the background, and the priest stops at each row. It takes about a half hour for this procession to be finished.
The Deacon from our parish comes and sets up a room for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

<<That’s all I was trying to say. I was not dismissing the movement. And your right some of the reasons my family left had do with worship and Biblical preaching. But I think a part of the problem was no one really stressed to them, why they should remain Catholic…>>

I feel the same way you do, - the CCR is a valuable tool of the Holy Spirit, but we do need guidance and spiritual direction to keep the focus on the fullness of what we have in our one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church!

I no longer attend weekly prayer meetings, but help out at our annual “Life in the Spirit Seminar”. I’ve been in the renewal since 1976.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[sconea]

From the charismatics I keep hearing about “experiences” and enthusiasm. So many sound like new converts. And I honestly haven’t observed a steady growth in holiness in the charismatics I’ve known. Like many protestants they seem at the same level of spiritual growth as when first converted.
I know the Holy Spirit blows where he will, and certainly don’t deny there are gifts, but the teaching of the Church is that we are NOT to go SEEKING extraordinary gifts. This is what I see so many charismatics doing.
They go seeking, not only extraordinary gifts, but also experiences, miracles etc. The ‘Life in the Spirit Seminars’ are just that…especially seeking to speak in tongues. And usually these are other lay people, not priests, praying and laying hands on people. You have no idea what ‘spirits’ you may be getting when you go SEEKING these extraordinary gifts.

According to the church teaching:

It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit”.(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church.** Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be ** presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116)

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM

SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Chapter 2 (12)

 

[Dorothy]

“sconea”

Thank you for quoting from Lumen Gentium:

<<Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116) >>

The above statement with regard to “extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after…” is balanced with the last part of the statement which starts with "“but judgment as to their genuinity…”

So, while we need to be cautious and keep our motives according to the will and glory of God, we also need to not stifle the Spirit, but to" test all things and hold fast to that which is good."

Guidance and spiritual direction is very important in the CCR – as it is important in all the spiritual movements in the Church, religious orders as well. All movements of the Holy Spirit need correction, renewal, and a constant striving to be on the " narrow path" that the Lord wants us to follow Him on.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[sconea]

Dorothy, I agree. And this is what I’m talking about. I’ve seen plenty of LISS where there is absolutely no guidance and no priest present to judge the ‘genuity’ of anything. All they are is a group of lay people demanding gifts of the HS.
This also goes on so much in ‘prayer groups’ where once again, people will be praying, interpreting and prophesying and there is no priest or any rightful church authority to make a prudential judgment on anything. People are claiming to be hearing directly from God…and everyone just assumes they are. And therein, lies the danger in this ‘movement’

And i’m sorrry, but going to be prayed over by lay people to be able to speak in tongues, with no proper authority present, is indeed Seeking Extraordinary gifts and can be at least, materially sinful. Guidance and spiritual direction, which is so important, is what seems most lacking in this movement. The gift I seek most lacking is fear of the Lord.

Blessings…
…