Charismatic Catholic

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wannano
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What’s odd to me is that it seems that in the Christian practice of glossolalia, there are different “types” of ‘tongues’ (i.e. private prayer language, the ‘gift of tongues’ as you mention, etc.). These are really just artificial designations from a linguistic standpoint as there is absolutely no difference in the glossolalia produced.

I would argue that the ‘gift’ of tongues in 1 Cor. 12 is first, not a gift; the Greek uses ‘manifestation’ of the Holy Spirit, never ‘gift’ in reference to tongues. Second, I would argue that it is nothing more than the ability (courage, perhaps - ?) to witness/proselytize in a foreign language to non-Jews (i.e. the rest of the world) rather than having to use the previously socially and culturally ‘required’ language of Hebrew to do so., i.e. the formal breaking away, if you will, from the tradition of ecclesiastical diglossia. It should be noted that Greek was slowly becoming an acceptable language to use alongside Hebrew.

🙂
From the Catholic Charismatic Renewal perspective, there are indeed different types of tongues, and yes, they are considered gift of the Holy Spirit. They can be roughly categorized into three:

(1) Speaking in tongue (1Cor 12) which was more likely what happened to the apostles at Pentecost.

(2) Praying in tongue and (3) singing in tongue (Rom 8:26).

(1) is very rare in CCR. I have seen it only once, and I have travelled intensively, attending conferences, national and international alike, and that was about twenty years ago while visiting a Community oversea. One person spoke in tongue and another interpreted it. Considering that there are estimated 250 million Catholics with ‘Charismatic’ spirituality and that figure was also twenty years ago, and only a handful have this gift, this is something not considered usual, at least not in CCR.

What is more common are (2) and (3), which is more of personal prayers for the upbuilding of oneself. These are considered the gateway to other gifts of the Holy Spirit, which if given, are for the purpose of talent to serve in the Church, the body of Christ. And they are not strictly for one’s benefit. Some people do not want to receive such gifts, because of being unprepared to go where it leads them to, to serve.
 
This is what was purported to be the “gift” Agnes Ozman received from being 'baptised in the Spirit" by Charles Parham

https://theology(name removed by moderator)erspective.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_5941-0.jpg?w=494

At the time, they claimed she spoke fluent Chinese for three days, and wrote these “Chinese characters”. Well, let me just point out that this scribble is neither Chinese nor characters in any language. It’s just scribble. It’s not divine script either.
 
This is what was purported to be the “gift” Agnes Ozman received from being 'baptised in the Spirit" by Charles Parham

https://theology(name removed by moderator)erspective.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_5941-0.jpg?w=494

At the time, they claimed she spoke fluent Chinese for three days, and wrote these “Chinese characters”. Well, let me just point out that this scribble is neither Chinese nor characters in any language. It’s just scribble. It’s not divine script either.
So what? Any purported gift / manifestation has to be submitted to be tested and discerned by a body of people who are familiar with it. There would not always be a consensus. There is no guarantee it must be authentic. Nobody says it always have to be. So what is your point?

Most of the times it is about stepping in faith and time only will tell, if there is good fruit arising out of such manifestation, such as growth for the group.
 
@ SyroMalankara –

Ah, yeah, I wasn’t thinking of that, i.e. the use of Syriac. Ecclesiastical diglossia does exist today, but I don’t think it’s quite as “strict” as it was in Paul’s time.

Some examples other than what you referenced – Classical Arabic is the liturgical language of Islam, but I don’t believe the diglossia is quite as strict – this is one of the reasons you’ll see say, someone from Indonesia reciting the Quran in Classical Arabic rather than Indonesian, or Javanese, or any other language indigenous to Indonesia. Avestan as the liturgical language of Zoroastrianism (though I’m not sure if this is simply the case of Avestan – Old Persian being a liturgical language or the ONLY language acceptable for prayer, etc.).

Boy, examples of some universal concepts of language – this is a bit tough as I want to include those of human language.

Here’s a really quick response -

Essentially the main universal concept is one I’ve already mentioned - language conveys a thought/concept from one ‘speaker’ to another. Language is a means by which that thought/concept is conveyed. I have ‘speaker’ in quotes as the language does not need to be specifically spoken. I think these are the two major ones – language is the means by which a thought/concept is conveyed to another.

Since Christian glossolalia is a spoken language only – by that I mean that there is no written glossolalia. Yes, you can record it and transcribe it, but the speaker can’t write glossolalia instead of speaking it (nor can they repeat a glossic utterance they just spoke), I have to go by some universals of spoken language and human language in general.

To cover a few – and in no particular order….

Every language has structure: it contains sounds which are strung together to create “words”. These words in a given language must be put together in such a way that all speakers agree upon this order so that concepts can be conveyed. English generally agrees that the subject comes first, then an action word (verb), and then an (optional) object. In other languages, this order may be totally different, and in yet other languages, this order may be quite free (usually the amount of freedom you have to move things around has a lot to do with attaching some sort of grammatical case marker – so long as all words are marked correctly, the order they are said doesn’t really matter). All languages contain some form of grammar – an agreed upon way to structure the words so they “make sense”. Typically each ‘word’ may be translated into another language, however, the translation may require additional words in the target language – for example, in Abenaki one says “tasakwabo” which means not just ‘sit, but to ‘sit on something solid; one word in Abenaki, four in English.

Glossolalia has none of the above – all sounds are not inherent to a particular ‘tongue’ – sounds in glossolalia will only comprise those found in the speaker’s native language (or any other language they may have been exposed to) and typically will not contain all of those sounds, but just a select random few. So the glossolalia of a speaker who has only ever been exposed to English will never contain say the retroflex sounds found in Dravidial langauges such as Tamil, nor will it ever contain sounds like the Welsh ‘ll’, or German ‘ü’ , or Zulu ‘dl’. It will only contain sounds found in English.

Further, if a given combination of sounds are disallowed in the speaker’s native language, they will also be disallowed in their glossolalia.

In other words, the sounds of any given ‘tongue’ will only be comprised of those the speaker already knows. The only odd thing is that American speakers will usually trill their ‘r’ – makes the tongue sound more foreign.

There are no ‘words’ in glossolalia – there are pauses between utterances which can be construed as words when one hears it spoken or if it’s transcribed, but many of these utterances are repeated over and over.

Syllable structure is also very simplified – usually all open syllables; consonant (C), Vowel (V), CVCVCV, etc. which is one of the reasons speakers say they can speak it faster than they can English – the CVCV structure can be uttered a lot quicker than if there are closed syllables (CVC) – it just flows quicker.

Glossolalia does not have any grammatical structure – there is nothing that can even remotely be construed as grammatical endings or conjugation patters (with verbs). Even the most basic of languages has grammatical structure.

Here’s a great paper on some universal concepts of human language:

uio.no/studier/emner/hf/ikos/EXFAC03-AAS/h05/larestoff/linguistics/Chapter%203.(H05).pdf

When compared to glossolalia, almost every concept is lacking (with the exception that spoken human language contains consonants and vowels).

What you say about Tolkien’s languages as well as “Klingon”, or “Na’avi” (Avatar) is true – all of these are constructed languages (popularly known as “con-langs”) – they are all artificial, but all adhere to the rules and concepts of human languages – they all have set grammar and structure as well as a set lexicon. They even have rules of correct grammar! Though artificially constructed, they meet all the criteria for “real language”. Esperanto is also a constructed language - it’s lexicon is based on real languages however. It has thousands of speakers.

The thing is, is that all of these fall into and meet the criteria of real (human) language: lexicon, grammar and structure. Glossolalia has none of these.
 
@ Reuben J

Yes, those are the classifications I was referring to - from a linguistic perspective there is absolutely no difference between any of them except one is sung. I have never heard “lyrics” in a “singing in the Spirit” to rhyme - by the standards of how glossolalia is produced, this would almost be impossible to occur.

Interesting how in various traditions, how these are regarded - Example 1 seems to be rather rare in CCR, but commonplace with Pentecostals.

Yeah - that’s the classic example of ‘written tongues’ - the only example I know of for written Christian tongues - Agnes Oxman’s “Chinese”. Perhaps a form of what we’d call today “auto(matic)-writing”.
 
No, we have not attempted to explain the language structure of tongue. It is a mystery, the action of the Spirit. There is no trying to analyze it other than that it is the action of the Holy Spirit in word we cannot understand. Bottom line, such gift exists, that’s all.
 
From the Catholic Charismatic Renewal perspective, there are indeed different types of tongues, and yes, they are considered gift of the Holy Spirit. They can be roughly categorized into three:

(1) Speaking in tongue (1Cor 12) which was more likely what happened to the apostles at Pentecost.

(2) Praying in tongue and (3) singing in tongue (Rom 8:26).
Briefly because the sun is out and I need to leave.

In practical reality, there are not different types of tongues.

There is only one “Tongues” which occurs when a person yields the speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In yielding, the person does not use his rational powers of memory or intellect which are normal in speaking or praying. This same yielding is employed by two different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Both the two different manifestations of the power of the Holy Spirit (explore link in post 120) require yielding. Yielding is yielding.
 
@ Reuben J

Yes, those are the classifications I was referring to - from a linguistic perspective there is absolutely no difference between any of them except one is sung. I have never heard “lyrics” in a “singing in the Spirit” to rhyme - by the standards of how glossolalia is produced, this would almost be impossible to occur.

Interesting how in various traditions, how these are regarded - Example 1 seems to be rather rare in CCR, but commonplace with Pentecostals.

Yeah - that’s the classic example of ‘written tongues’ - the only example I know of for written Christian tongues - Agnes Oxman’s “Chinese”. Perhaps a form of what we’d call today “auto(matic)-writing”.
I would be skeptical with the prevalence of (1) as it can be quite controversial. I, of course, cannot say it does not happen. Only the difference in CCR and the Protestant experience. We are wary to admit similarity simply because of the different theology behind it,
 
Briefly because the sun is out and I need to leave.

In practical reality, there are not different types of tongues.

There is only one “Tongues” which occurs when a person yields the speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In yielding, the person does not use his rational powers of memory or intellect which are normal in speaking or praying. This same yielding is employed by two different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Both the two different manifestations of the power of the Holy Spirit (explore link in post 120) require yielding. Yielding is yielding.
I disagree, Granny. If it is, then many if those are useless for without the gift of interpretation, they are useless, and yes, they are just mere babbling. Ref. 1 Cor 12.
 
@ SyroMalankara –

Every language has structure: it contains sounds which are strung together to create “words”. These words in a given language must be put together in such a way that all speakers agree upon this order so that concepts can be conveyed.
Sunshine is calling me…

As I read more and more CAF posts, I am now convinced that it is the misuse of the word language which is causing trouble when one is describing the Manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This misunderstanding is probably why so many eavesdroppers question Tongues. :rolleyes:

I am responding to the call of sunshine…
 
@Reuben J. -

No, we have not attempted to explain the language structure of tongue. It is a mystery, the action of the Spirit. There is no trying to analyze it other than that it is the action of the Holy Spirit in word we cannot understand. Bottom line, such gift exists, that’s all.”

I have to respectfully disagree - it’s not at all a mystery; there have been numerous studies done on glossolalia; all with the same results.

As mentioned, glossolalia mimics language. At first glance it seems to have words, grammar, structure, etc., but on closer inspection, it has none of these; it’s a façade of language.

Anything spoken that resembles or is language can be analyzed - and it has been. Numerous times, all with the same findings.

Given the composition and structure (or lack thereof), i.e. the mechanics behind it, it’s just not something that can be construed as being divine in origin. It’s rather mundane and in many cases very predictable in some speakers.
 
For those who have never seen or heard ‘tongues’ - here’s an example taken right off of a YouTube site of a legitimate pastor (I presume) speaking a tongue,

I have transcribed the utterance below:

Káyntay háychee, háychee kéeho hóro.
Máhcha keetáy lah mócho,
rána mahcháy nay keetáh lau.
Réhnah shay kée nah máhto.

/kénte héči, héči kího hóro/
/máča kité la móčo/
/rána mačé ne kitá lau/
/rɛ’na še kí na máto/

Essentially you read the top part as if it were English – the only convention I have used is to put an accent over the syllable in the ‘word’ that receives the main stress. The ‘ay’ here is the ‘ay’ in “day”, and of course, don’t forget to trill your R’s. The punctuation written is an assumption only and is based solely on the speaker’s intonation and phrasing.

The part in slashes is a basic rendition in IPA for those familiar with it.
 
No, we have not attempted to explain the language structure of tongue. It is a mystery, the action of the Spirit. There is no trying to analyze it other than that it is the action of the Holy Spirit in word we cannot understand. Bottom line, such gift exists, that’s all.
Sorry, that response is not adequate. We can analyze all kinds of phenomena, even mystical - especially mystical, to rule out natural causes. Stating “we cannot understand” in the mode of “we should not understand” is not at all appropriate. Even miraculous healings for beatifications are investigated by postulators, not simply taken at face value.
 
Briefly because the sun is out and I need to leave.

In practical reality, there are not different types of tongues.

There is only one “Tongues” which occurs when a person yields the speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In yielding, the person does not use his rational powers of memory or intellect which are normal in speaking or praying. This same yielding is employed by two different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Both the two different manifestations of the power of the Holy Spirit (explore link in post 120) require yielding. Yielding is yielding.
I’m sorry but yielding rationality and intellect seem antithetical to Catholic teaching. The Holy Spirit elevates, sanctifies and glorifies (Divinizes) the material, the rational, and the temporal - He does not ask the mind to be eradicated or for one to lose their faculties. That seems more what Buddhist or Hindu philosophy terms "sadhana” - not what Catholic/Orthodox teaching. Catholic philosophy encourages rational thinking and elevating intellect, especially on matters of the Divine.
 
I disagree, Granny. If it is, then many if those are useless for without the gift of interpretation, they are useless, and yes, they are just mere babbling. Ref. 1 Cor 12.
St Paul says we do not know how to pray but the Spirit asketh on our behalf.
Tongues is the Holy Spirit praying for God’s intentions.

So it can be a powerful way of praying for God’s intentions.

Yes, interpretation of tongues is also what St Paul asked people to pray for, in order to also pray with understanding,

A baby often talks baby talk to its mother, it’s a sign of affection and communication of love.
Loving God the Father through tongues is also worthy.
 
the Charisma gifts of the Holy Spirit started at Creation in Genesis. We see it again at the reinstitution of orthodox worship at Pentecost, renewing the Church. Much of what we see today is not originated from this. It is a reworked Holiness movement offshoot that became popular in the 60s.
All those things were taken from Catholicism when the protestants schismed.

No, I’m questioning the popular version of what I see that claims these approvals
Friend you are completely ignoring continuously in every single post,

That all four most.recent Popes support the catholic charismatic renewal that you are trying to condemn.
That the catechism supports the charismatic renewal that you are trying to condemn.
And also, you completely refuse to recognise, that these charisms were specifically released on all faithful Christians, at Pentecost.
The catholic charismatic renewal began at Pentecost. Not in the 1960s but at Pentecost.

These are all facts.

You have ignored all my posts of each of the Popes comments of support of the catholic charismatic renewal. And you keep denying extraordinary charisms for old Testament charisms of patience and service.

Jesus said, “If it is by the Finger of God that I do these things. Then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.”
 
Friend you are completely ignoring continuously in every single post,

That all four most.recent Popes support the catholic charismatic renewal that you are trying to condemn.
im not sure that what the Popes support is what im seeing in popular charismatic circles. Im “condemning” specific actions, not “charisms” or “renewal”
That the catechism supports the charismatic renewal that you are trying to condemn.
I believe this is a slight of hand
And also, you completely refuse to recognise, that these charisms were specifically released on all faithful Christians, at Pentecost.
where did i do that?
The catholic charismatic renewal began at Pentecost. Not in the 1960s but at Pentecost.
Then why do many of the actions mimick the pentecostal protestant actions of the 60s and not Pentecost, as attested to in Scripture and Tradition?
You have ignored all my posts of each of the Popes comments of support of the catholic charismatic renewal. And you keep denying extraordinary charisms for old Testament charisms of patience and service.
No I havent
Jesus said, “If it is by the Finger of God that I do these things. Then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.”
thats about driving out demons, exorcism, only a priest authorized by his bishop to do; or within the context of Sacraments in Holy Orders. Not laymen claiming this
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top