Charismatic Catholicism?

[po18guy]

Yes, I am one of the “13” that you spoke of. CFN believes that the N.O. is indeed valid, and the are by no means Sedevacantists or have ever claimed to be.

Sounds great! Except that I find them to be relentlessly negative in tone.

As to the thread title, I take it that you have no personal experience or involvement in the charismatic movement?

 

[po18guy]

Would someone, anyone, who has been involved in the charismatic movement - actual experience - and has found it to be of no value, please enter the fray?

Anyone???

 

[gtrenewed]

Also did they go searching for specific gifts? Did they boast about having these gifts? Does Paul tell use to be eager for these gifts or the greater ones like Charity? If the gifts these people have are truly from the Holy Spirit why do they need to practice? Do we see the Renewal doing the same things as the Apostles before the Holy Spirit came down upon them like praying and fasting? Can’t these gifts be misused? How do we know the Renewal is using these gifts properly? Don’t get me wrong converts are awesome but shouldn’t we be worried about quality rather than quantity?

npatrol:

Rather judgemental to gauge which convert is a quality convert. Also, not much faith that the Church leadership is not on the job. I think Jesus who sees all can alert the Church leadership quite nicely without you worrying.

 

[gtrenewed]

Would someone, anyone, who has been involved in the charismatic movement - actual experience - and has found it to be of no value, please enter the fray?

Anyone???

And what would this prove? Would one opinion negate the many that have responded positively? Since when is opinion more important than Church teaching?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

If memory serves me correctly, Paul does encourage the faithful to actively seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues and prophecy. I believe you’ll find the pertinent passages in 1 Corinthians somewhere. But Paul also emphasizes that these gifts have their proper place and function. And of course Paul encourages that we all strive after the gift of love above all things, because all other gifts will cease when we “no longer see dimly, as in a mirror, but face to face.” In the Charismatic events that I’ve been to this order has almost always been maintained. The “extraordinary” gifts of prophecy and tongues are encouraged, but love - both of God and of neighbor - is encouraged above all things.

No, the saints did not boast of their gifts, and often tried to hide them out of humility. But not all charismatics boast of these gifts either, and many do indeed try to hide them. I know some who only pray in tongues during their private prayer time and out of the earshot of others.

As to whether or not the people in the Renewal do the same thing as the Apostles on Pentecost, or that St. Paul encouraged, biblical scholars say that yes indeed, this is one possible interpretation of what happened at Pentecost and in the early Church.

Of course all gifts can be misused. The gift of free will is the most frequently misused, followed, of course, by the gift of reason. But just because a gift is misused does not de facto make the gift (or the Giver by implication) bad or any less a true gift.

The way we know whether or not any movement within the Church is using its gifts and/or its charism (role within the Church) properly is by trusting in the competent authorities to pass judgment. As has been pointed out time and again in this thread, the past several Popes have all been supporters of the Renewal. John Paul II is often said to have been a member of the Renewal, although you’ll not find that in writing. It also seems that the large majority of bishops in the Church are also supporters of the Renewal, as there are active groups in nearly ever diocese, at least here in the States.

As to whether or not members of the Renewal practice fasting, prayer, etc., I can affirm that with a resounding “yes.” Often times they are the most enthusiastic, voluntarily fasting on Fridays when the Church at large seems to have abandoned this practice, some even fast on Wednesdays as well. Many that I’ve known faithfully pray Morning and Evening Prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours, attend daily Mass, and go to Confession on a regular basis! Many attend regular prayer meetings, where they gather with their brothers and sisters in Christ outside of a liturgical context to offer prayers of praise, adoration and thanksgiving to our God Who has bestowed so many great blessings upon us.

I know Paul talks about desiring the gifts of the Holy Spirit but that’s not the same as searching for specific gifts. I believe the gifts are to be treated like a vocation in that certain people are called to certain gifts. Yet Paul in the end says to be eager for the greater gifts which are charity since without it the other gifts will not be profitable. I believe the greater gifts are faith, hope, and charity.

Thank you for the awesome response though Phillip.

 

[po18guy]

Also, since you seem like you might know the answer, I’ll ask you. How does one “test” these charisms to know that they are indeed “good”?

By experiencing them?

 

[Irish_Polock]

The saints were indeed often members of such movements, in fact they were often founders of such movements. Sts. Francis and Dominc we the founders of the movment of mendicant orders, something which did not exist prior to them. Sts. Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure were members of this same movement and great defenders of it.

Wait a minute, are you equating the Charismatic Movement to the founding of Religious Orders? I hardly think these are even in the same ballpark. Were any of these Saints Charismatic in the modern sense?

as a side note: St.Francis was greatly influenced by St. Benedict - although, St Francis was certainly more of a mystic.

Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross were founders and members of a reform movement within the Carmelite Order. The Fathers of the Council of Trent, including Sts. Pius V and Charles Boromeo, participated in the movement to reform the Roman Liturgy of their time (as well, I might add, in the movement to suppress certain liturgical rites that had been in use for quite some time among the faith in certain areas),

Again, I am not going to equate the reform these Saints are attributed with, to a movement such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement. Could you provide any evidence that they are similar?

In short, there is no shortage of saints who were either members of such a movement or founders of them. Again, movements within the Church are merely the faithful responding to the perceived needs of their time. The Charismatic Renewal is one such movement, as is the so-called “traditionalist” movement.

I am not sure I have said anything about “movements” in general. I have specifically talked about the Charismatic Renewal movement, more specifically about the ambiguities within this said movement and how the deceiver could also be attributed to these charisms. If you can point me too where the historic church has accepted these gifts in the past - especially within the context of the Mass - I am willing to listen and learn.

And to deny that a substantial number of the saints did not possess various gifts of the Holy Spirit, including some of the gifts promoted within the Charismatic Renewal, either betrays a remarkable ignorance of the lives of the saints and gifts of the Holy Spirit, or can be chalked up to a lapse in memory (of which I have many ).

I don’t deny the charisms you speak of about the many saints with “a gift”, because our authority has deemed it worthy of acceptance. The Church has not told me that anyone within the modern movement is worthy of such acceptance, and until the Church has tested these charisms individually and accepted it as good - individually, I will remain a skeptic, and know that the deceiver is indeed what his name insinuates.

 

[Irish_Polock]

By experiencing them?

And this could not be the work of anything else, except the Holy Spirit? How does one know that when they speak in tongues it is not the work of the deceiver?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Rather judgemental to gauge which convert is a quality convert.

No judgmental at all really. It’s not wrong to ask what type of converts certain movements bring in. Do these people become Cathoilcs faithful to the Church or do they become wolfs in sheeps clothing.

Also, not much faith that the Church leadership is not on the job. I think Jesus who sees all can alert the Church leadership quite nicely without you worrying.

This is an interesting statement. Your saying I shouldn’t pay attention to what goes on in the Church or be cautious because to do so would be to have very little faith in Church leadership. You do realize that the leaders of the Church rely on the faithful to help them don’t you? When there is a liturgical abuse going on in a parish does God just beam the knowledge into the Bishops head?

 

[po18guy]

I know Paul talks about desiring the gifts of the Holy Spirit but that’s not the same as searching for specific gifts. I believe the gifts are to be treated like a vocation in that certain people are called to certain gifts. Yet Paul in the end says to be eager for the greater gifts which are charity since without it the other gifts will not be profitable. I believe the greater gifts are faith, hope, and charity. Thank you for the awesome response though Phillip.

Faith, hope and charity are the three theological virtues. Charisms are gifts, separate and distinct from the virtues. If you will, charisms are the mechanism used to apply the virtues to our faith lives.

 

[BigFellaMick]

I still don’t understand how speaking in tongues is Godly? Clearly it is a sign of demonic influence. If God wished to enter someone or speak through someone He could do so naturally. If some foreign influence like a demon tried entering our bodies wouldn’t it be natural for our body to try to repel it? Hence convulsing and speaking in tongues and the like? Speaking in tongues is way too cultish for me. (Not seeking to offend anyone, I just don’t see how it is Godly at all). Just stating an opinion. God Bless.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Faith, hope and charity are the three theological virtues. Charisms are gifts, separate and distinct from the virtues. If you will, charisms are the mechanism used to apply the virtues to our faith lives.

I know virtues aren’t charisms but how can we say they aren’t gifts from God?

 

[po18guy]

I know virtues aren’t charisms but how can we say they aren’t gifts from God?

All that we have is via God’s grace. But, as with the parable of the talents, it is what we do with those gifts that matters. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[po18guy]

I still don’t understand how speaking in tongues is Godly? Clearly it is a sign of demonic influence. If God wished to enter someone or speak through someone He could do so naturally. If some foreign influence like a demon tried entering our bodies wouldn’t it be natural for our body to try to repel it? Hence convulsing and speaking in tongues and the like? Speaking in tongues is way too cultish for me. (Not seeking to offend anyone, I just don’t see how it is Godly at all). Just stating an opinion. God Bless.

Have a quick read of 1 Corinthians 12-14. For His own reasons, God began giving the gift of tongues at Pentecost (Acts 2). However, there are many other gifts, or “charisms” that we are also given to use in the building up of God’s Kingdom.

Look at what Saint Paul says about the gifts (charisms) of the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.** 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

**1 Corinthians 14:1
**** Intelligibility in Worship ] Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:12
So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

The problem comes when we use these gifts to build ourselves up, rather than to build the Church up. But, those folks will answer for their vanity, just as we will answer for ours.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Wait a minute, are you equating the Charismatic Movement to the founding of Religious Orders? I hardly think these are even in the same ballpark. Were any of these Saints Charismatic in the modern sense?

**No, I’m not equating the Charismatic Movement with the founding of religious orders, but I am pointing out that there is a great deal of historical similarity in that both were a response to the perceived needs of the time. Actually, the founding of such orders as the Franciscans and Dominicans, I believe, is an apt comparison. Francis, for example, had no intention of founding and order and put off writing/adopting a Rule for as long as possible. When his followers became so numerous as to become unwieldy, then he wrote his Rule. So the Franciscans, for a time at least, were nothing more than a movement, not to establish a new order within the Church, but to call the faithful to a renewed life of repentance.

As to whether or not any of the saints were “charismatic” in the modern sense of the word, you’d first have to define what the Charismatic Renewal is. There are many definitions of it, and those who tend to be the most negative towards the Renewal tend to be those who have the wrong definition. The saints were indeed “charismatic” in the proper sense of the word, and that is the sort of “charismatic” that is sought after by the Renewal; “charismatic” in the sense of living a dynamic life in the Spirit, one filled with love of God and neighbor, participation in the Liturgical life of the Church, taking that life out into the world around us, prayerfully studying Scripture, the Church Fathers and Doctors, Papal documents, etc. These are the fruits of the Renewal that I’ve encountered personally in my years of experience within the Renewal. If “by their fruits you shall know them” is true, then what does that say about the Renewal?**

Again, I am not going to equate the reform these Saints are attributed with, to a movement such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement. Could you provide any evidence that they are similar?

Why are you hesitant to compare the reform attributed to some of the saints with the Charismatic Renewal? Both seek the same end, dynamic life in God. Both are concerned with the uprooting of sin and aquiring the virtues. Both sought to deepen prayer and prepare the individual to encounter God in a new and deeper way. The evidence I have provided is that both are a response to perceived needs of the time, just as the traditional Catholic movement is a response to a perceived need within the Church. What evidence can you provide that they are not similar?

(Cont.)

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

(Cont.)

I am not sure I have said anything about “movements” in general. I have specifically talked about the Charismatic Renewal movement, more specifically about the ambiguities within this said movement and how the deceiver could also be attributed to these charisms. If you can point me too where the historic church has accepted these gifts in the past - especially within the context of the Mass - I am willing to listen and learn.

Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila both talk about various gifts: visions, prophecy, locutions, spiritual feelings, etc. These same gifts are spoken of, and often experienced, within the Charismatic Renewal. Of course the deceiver can deceive! Even John of the Cross recognized that. His solution, allow the locutions, visions or whatever to be what they are, and then basically forget they ever happened. If they are from God they will have the effect in our soul that God intended. If not then we are at no loss for having ignored them. This is one area where I think the Renewal itself needs a bit of reform. Among some within the Renewal there can and has been a tendency to focus on the gift rather than the Giver. The gifts are all good, but only insofar as they lead us back to the Giver in deeper love and gratitude. In the same way the gifts of free will and reason are good, but only insofar as the serve their proper role of leading us back into deeper union with our Creator. When emphasized for their own sake these gifts are destructive.

As far as within the context of the Mass, are you familiar with the story surround the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, and how, while processing out of the Church at the end of Mass, Pope Leo XIII received a vision? Are you unaware of the many saints who have levetated or gone into ecstasy during the Mass, some not to come out of the state of ecstasy until long after the Mass had ended? St. Catherine of Sienna is one such. I’ve also heard stories of Padre Pio who, before Holy Communion, threw people out of the church for attempting to approach the Holy Mysteries unworthily. Obviously this is not speaking in tongues, but these are considered charismatic or extraordinary gifts both within and without the Charismatic Renewal.

I don’t deny the charisms you speak of about the many saints with “a gift”, because our authority has deemed it worthy of acceptance. The Church has not told me that anyone within the modern movement is worthy of such acceptance, and until the Church has tested these charisms individually and accepted it as good - individually, I will remain a skeptic, and know that the deceiver is indeed what his name insinuates.

You are free to remain a skeptic, just as I am free to remain a skeptic about Fatima, Lourdes, Medjudorje, Guadalupe, etc., the revelations to St. Faustina, or any other private vision, revelation or what have you. What you and I both are not free to do is condemn those that have been approved by the Church; well in a sense we are free to condemn, but this would be an abuse of our freedom. The competent Church authorities have stated time and again that the Renewal is a good thing within the Church and that Catholics are free to participate in it for the benefit of their spiritual life if they so wish. It is not compulsory. You yourself do not have to participate in it. But you also do not have the authority to condemn as bad or from Satan that which the competent authorities have proclaimed to be good.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I know Paul talks about desiring the gifts of the Holy Spirit but that’s not the same as searching for specific gifts. I believe the gifts are to be treated like a vocation in that certain people are called to certain gifts. Yet Paul in the end says to be eager for the greater gifts which are charity since without it the other gifts will not be profitable. I believe the greater gifts are faith, hope, and charity.

Thank you for the awesome response though Phillip.

I’ll have to look up the pertinent passage, but unfortunately I don’t have a Bible next to me right now. You are exactly correct, certain people are called to certain gifts. And again, you are certainly correct, it is best to seek after the gifts of faith, hope and love, especially love because only this one will remain!



Please pray for me, sinner that I am.

 

[po18guy]

(Cont.)

Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila both talk about various gifts: visions, prophecy, locutions, spiritual feelings, etc. These same gifts are spoken of, and often experienced, within the Charismatic Renewal. Of course the deceiver can deceive! Even John of the Cross recognized that. His solution, allow the locutions, visions or whatever to be what they are, and then basically forget they ever happened. If they are from God they will have the effect in our soul that God intended. If not then we are at no loss for having ignored them. This is one area where I think the Renewal itself needs a bit of reform. Among some within the Renewal there can and has been a tendency to focus on the gift rather than the Giver. The gifts are all good, but only insofar as they lead us back to the Giver in deeper love and gratitude. In the same way the gifts of free will and reason are good, but only insofar as the serve their proper role of leading us back into deeper union with our Creator. When emphasized for their own sake these gifts are destructive.

As far as within the context of the Mass, are you familiar with the story surround the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, and how, while processing out of the Church at the end of Mass, Pope Leo XIII received a vision? Are you unaware of the many saints who have levetated or gone into ecstasy during the Mass, some not to come out of the state of ecstasy until long after the Mass had ended? St. Catherine of Sienna is one such. I’ve also heard stories of Padre Pio who, before Holy Communion, threw people out of the church for attempting to approach the Holy Mysteries unworthily. Obviously this is not speaking in tongues, but these are considered charismatic or extraordinary gifts both within and without the Charismatic Renewal.

You are free to remain a skeptic, just as I am free to remain a skeptic about Fatima, Lourdes, Medjudorje, Guadalupe, etc., the revelations to St. Faustina, or any other private vision, revelation or what have you. What you and I both are not free to do is condemn those that have been approved by the Church; well in a sense we are free to condemn, but this would be an abuse of our freedom. The competent Church authorities have stated time and again that the Renewal is a good thing within the Church and that Catholics are free to participate in it for the benefit of their spiritual life if they so wish. It is not compulsory. You yourself do not have to participate in it. But you also do not have the authority to condemn as bad or from Satan that which the competent authorities have proclaimed to be good.

Amen! Shout it from the rooftops!

I sense that a certain spirit may motivate some of opposition to the use of charisms. I do not know which spirit is is, only which Spirit it is not.

 

[Denise1957]

Amen! Shout it from the rooftops!

I sense that a certain spirit may motivate some of opposition to the use of charisms. I do not know which spirit is is, only which Spirit it is not.

Could you elaborate on this a bit?

 

[ClayPots47]

exactly.

A good article on the dangers of Charismatic movements, especially for youth: cfnews.org/Steub-CFN0608.htm

From the link above: Worse, these events sometimes include the supremely ridiculous rappin’ priest, Father Stan Fortuna.

Anybody who would make this comment about Fr Stan has lost all credibility with me, and that article lacks objectivity. Gee, why is Franciscan University of Steubenville known as such a bastion of orthodoxy? Could it be because the fruits speak for themselves? CAF poster Brother JREducation gave an excellent explanation in another thread as to how Father Stan’s use of rap is in keeping with Franciscan traditions. Granted some things trouble me, like why couldn’t more Catholic hymns be used? Using songs written by Protestants isn’t a bad thing, I can recall singing songs composed by Luther and Wesley, among others. BTW, Let the Fire Fall was composed by a Catholic. And Michael W Smith’s Agnes Dei draws directly from scripture for it’s lyrics, and Smitty’s version is a prais-and-worship tune. If they did a rock version, it was probably the version done by Third Day of Smitty’s tune on the Exodus CD. I am not familiar with most of the artists and songs mentioned, but Chris Tomlin has performed songs written by a Catholic, that being Matt Maher.