R
Road2Damascus
Guest
If it’s okay, this is another interesting thread on the same topic: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=589620 There is info I was not previously familiar with.
- Status
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Well, I’m sure there are plenty of people that really are just speaking gibberish because they’re faking it. However, just because you yourself don’t know what they’re saying, you can’t conclude that it’s gibberish. There have been many times where people I know have had their languages verified as real languages - anything from French, Italian, to ancient Gothic languages, Hebrew, dialects of Swahili…
Being skeptical and discerning is good!
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
If plenty of people are doing that meaning speaking in gibberish, I’m sorry, that in my humble view does not seem to praise the Lord. Also, what if one was in a prayer meeting, 20 people were there and 20 people were speaking in tongues? Or a hundred out of a hundred? That would be confusing. Also, I have heard of this “verified” as a real language before and this was brought up previously and I read this even in the book by Sister Francis Clare in “Wow God” but has this been verified anywhere where we can read about it or see proof??Well, I’m sure there are plenty of people that really are just speaking gibberish because they’re faking it. However, just because you yourself don’t know what they’re saying, you can’t conclude that it’s gibberish. There have been many times where people I know have had their languages verified as real languages - anything from French, Italian, to ancient Gothic languages, Hebrew, dialects of Swahili…
Being skeptical and discerning is good!
Still, let’s not forget 1 John 4:1, not to be preachy however:
Because just saying the Holy Spirit is the source of this likewise is not certain as well.
I read one of these threads and it seems possible the procedure could become a bit chaotic.
I think there are some serious questions to consider.
Also, I know there are various gifts from God, various gifts from God the Holy Spirit but it would certainly be something to be very humble about if it happened.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Sorry, can’t provide anything besides anecdotal evidence. I’ve heard and met people who have verified the languages…
Well, it’s really not as confusing as it might seem. In my experience, which is admittedly limited, times for speaking in tongues with the community are usually very quiet and simply individuals praying and speaking in tongues quietly to themselves. I am sure that it could get confusing, as it obviously did at Corinth, but it’s really very quiet and prayerful and contemplative.
It was obviously rather confusing at Pentecost. They did, you know, think the Apostles were drunk.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Yes, one should be humble about it. But it’s not something like, say, the stigmata. It’s something that’s supposed to be a regular part of Christian life. Everybody should ideally have this gift. So one should be humble about it, and not draw attention to oneself out of pride. But… in the same way as one should be humble about saying “I received communion today” or “I received a lot of grace today…”. It is not through their own doing that they received gifts from God. But it is God’s doing, and we should openly praise Him and thank Him for the gifts He has showered on us.
W
wondrousgnat
Guest
I have heard of people speaking in tongues which was a different language that others understood. At times I have been praying and felt my praying was not enough so then I prayed in tongues. At the very least I have regarded it as a prayer that God can interpret in the way He wants.
Most Catholic Charismatics I’ve known also pray the Rosary too.
Most Catholic Charismatics I’ve known also pray the Rosary too.
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
I’ll keep it simple, we have Catholic Persons, some Clergy, associated with the Charismatic Movement. I think this is a delicate subject however, I did look up some known Catholic Charismatics of this modern day and did not find anything on one of them being involved in Speaking in Tongues. Some of these people ‘tour’ in a sense so they do have acceptance to go to a Church to do a service such as I believe an example would be a healing mass. Here, we may still see the “resting in the Spirit” but I’m not sure about the “speaking in tongues” phenomenon.
Also, I’d like to make a comparison, you have people out there who even preach a Christian Yoga as Yoga is good exercise. Father Dechanet wrote a book “Christian Yoga” during the postwar years.
But on the other hand, there are a number of branches of Yoga out there, there is a type called Kundalini Yoga. Some ‘experts’ have made the rounds that while other forms may be harmless, in Kundalini Yoga you may be summoning dark kinds of spirits.
So again, if one is “speaking in tongues”, it seems to be a slightly similar situation, would one know what kinds of spirits one is conjuring up!?
So, not only am I skeptical about hearing professed speaking in tongues, this other area is also one to have caution about.
Also, I’d like to make a comparison, you have people out there who even preach a Christian Yoga as Yoga is good exercise. Father Dechanet wrote a book “Christian Yoga” during the postwar years.
But on the other hand, there are a number of branches of Yoga out there, there is a type called Kundalini Yoga. Some ‘experts’ have made the rounds that while other forms may be harmless, in Kundalini Yoga you may be summoning dark kinds of spirits.
So again, if one is “speaking in tongues”, it seems to be a slightly similar situation, would one know what kinds of spirits one is conjuring up!?
So, not only am I skeptical about hearing professed speaking in tongues, this other area is also one to have caution about.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
@ wondrousgnat: It’s a very kind of selfless way of praying, isn’t it?
@Roard2Damascus: Thankfully, the Church clarifies: speaking in tongues is a gift of the HS, and it is thus a good thing.
@Roard2Damascus: Thankfully, the Church clarifies: speaking in tongues is a gift of the HS, and it is thus a good thing.
G
gtrenewed
Guest
I’ll keep it more simple:
Gifts of the Holy Spirit part of the deposit of faith.
Yoga not.
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
Is it that easy??@Roard2Damascus: Thankfully, the Church clarifies: speaking in tongues is a gift of the HS, and it is thus a good thing.
Why is so much about 1 Cor 14 about Paul lecturing to the Corinthians about how they are speaking in tongues??
And if one does it in a prayer meeting, you definitely need an interpreter if one is speaking in tongues, verses 27 and 28.
R
rugger4christ
Guest
Primarily because they not using the gifts of the spirit as they were meant to be used. They were meant to be used through love(this is the point of 1 corinthians 13, to explain the gifts must be used through love), but the corinthians were becoming prideful and self focused especially about the gift of tongues. He explains that yes he wishes everyone to speak in tongues and that he himself speaks in tongues more than anyone else(which was certainly not all done in public meetings but most of which would have been in private times of prayer). He explains that prophecy is a greater gift because prophecy benefits the community whereas tongues just benefits you unless there is an interpreter. Thus it would not be beneficial to speak in tongues to the community if there is no interpreter, but if there is then it is a great benefit just as the gift of prophecy is.
I think I covered this a bit above, but no you do not need an interpreter always. You must understand the context. If at a prayer meeting you stand up, turn to address the community and speak a tongue then yet you should always have an interpreter, but if you are in your own personal prayer or during praise and worship and want to pray or sing in tongues then you do not need an interpreter. In these situations most people won’t even hear you praying or singing in tongues because everyone else will be singing as well.
Here are some clear things St. Paul said to encourage speaking in tongues
“I want you all to speak in tongues” (1 Cor 14:5)
“I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you” (1 Cor 14:18)
“Do not forbid speaking in tongues” (1 Cor 14:39)
Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the apostles all prayed in tongues: “They entered…the upper room where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James…and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.” “And they were** all **filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues.” (Acts 1:13,14; 2:4)
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
And neither is ice hockey or football.
So, here one needs to carefully test the spirits and never speak tongues in church/prayer meeting unless an interpreter is present.
Just because it is in the Deposit of Faith does not preclude the Great Deceiver from acting in ways and disguises.
I
Irish_Polock
Guest
It seems that the gift of tongues was given to “build up the Church” in the beginning of our Church. In all examples of this gift in Corinthians and in Acts it was used for just that, for the unbelieving not for the believing. In Acts, they spoke in tongues strange to the apostles, although, everyone heard them in their own language (it was gibberish, to no one) thus they heard the gospel. St. Paul explains that he would rather rather pray silently for the instruction of others then praying in an unknown tongue. All of this chapter in 1 Corinthians seems problematic to you theology. As St. Paul says, “…if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?” how can you answer this?
Today, we have way of evangelizing those of another language without this gift of tongues, this is possibly why St. Paul stated that this gift - along with other gifts - would indeed stop at some point, because it is unnecessary today.
I found this in the Baltimore’s Catechism #3
Q. 448. Why are these sign’s not continued everywhere at present time?
A. these sign’s are not continued everywhere at present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.
I agree with this, and I feel it is “mature thinking”.
12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. (1Corinthians (RSV) 14)
Today, we have way of evangelizing those of another language without this gift of tongues, this is possibly why St. Paul stated that this gift - along with other gifts - would indeed stop at some point, because it is unnecessary today.
I found this in the Baltimore’s Catechism #3
Q. 448. Why are these sign’s not continued everywhere at present time?
A. these sign’s are not continued everywhere at present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.
I agree with this, and I feel it is “mature thinking”.
12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. (1Corinthians (RSV) 14)
I
Irish_Polock
Guest
But they understood what they were saying, they just did not believe. It was not gibberish.
I
Irish_Polock
Guest
This said mentioned thread has good stuff. DavidFilmer has articulated his argument very well.
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
Okay, adding into this though, CCC, The Cathechism of the Catholic Church REQUIRES we DISCERN the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, it could appear I have mentioned something that is a tangent but let’s not forget, every so often you hear crazy crazy news stories about people and they say “God told me to do this”. So this is a practical matter.
I think before these threads are over, we will have 1 Cor. 14 memorized, Paul also said:
First off, I wonder what Paul means when he says “Tongues…a sign…for unbelievers”, that Unbelievers would speak in such a way? But the emboldened part does show that this gift does need to be disciplined.
Now back to the more general nature of this thread for everyone.
A modern charismatic, a man who came to our Church so at least his preaching is accepted in the Church somewhat is Alan Ames, appearing in Churches in the USA, he speaks German too and goes to that country. I do say, though I thought Alan was persuasive, I did get one of his books as well and the book, I’m just not positive about. I believe that is all I can say concerning that but his website is at alanames.org/en/testimonies.htm He would pray to heal people, laying hands on people. Perhaps he does have that gift. Not only did he seem like a good guy, I definitely think he had a bit of a holy aura about him if I can say that. He did not seem to deceitful or anything. Alan is a Brit but may have some Irish in him and eventually moved to Australia which must be his home base. I definitely saw people resting in the spirit when he laid hands on them. I was a “catcher” as I read spoken about in one of these threads, catch people from hitting the ground. One of these threads mentions the late Father Luke Zimmer who may have been gifted as well.
M
mlz
Guest
R
Road2Damascus
Guest
I found this excerpt from the Arlington Virginia website:
arlingtonrenewal.org/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit
So just to say the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of the Deposit of Faith is not enough, the Church requires discernment hence we are back to as said in 1 John 4:1 “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” NIV. I don’t think just because we call something a gift of the Holy Spirit and someone says they have that gift that no further scrutiny should be involved.
And here is the Arlington Renewals page on speaking in tongues quoting St. Thomas Aquinas.arlingtonrenewal.org/tongues
And on discernment of spirits: arlingtonrenewal.org/discernment-of-spirits Part of the Deposit of Faith as well.
- Status