Charismatic Catholicism?

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Irish_Polock said:
Are you asking if there is some other spirit that has influenced us to question what the Church has taught…such as? I feel moved by the Holy Spirit in my questioning of the CCR. (Not to be confused with authentic and proven charisms)

Has the Church taught errors outside of faith and morals before? Would you consider the CCR to be an infallibly taught subject, case closed “Rome has spoken”? Could there have been any errors in it creation an promulgation?
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The CCR is a movement with a message. The Church has given support to the movement, because the message is the same as what the Church has taught. I don’t think you understand what the CCR actually is.
 
Irish_Polock said:
Additionally (sorry :p), why was it, that this kind of movement has not been seen within the Church until 1967? If there was a previous movement, are there examples of this movement in the early Church that had been written prior to the Church supposedly quitting this practice?
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There were many charismatic revivals throughout church history. Two big ones were started with the Dominicans and Fransiscans. There have also been non-Catholic charismatic revivals, most recently with the modern Pentecostals.

The thing is, there shouldn’t have to be such a movement. If everyone was already living out the charismatic dimension of the faith, there would be no CCR. In the early church, this was the common experience. The early Christians had this understanding, and were living out the charismatic dimension. There was no need for a movement.
 
Ok so there are stigmas, a lot of them, with the charismatic movement or renewal as it is called in the States. In the vatican and rome is it simply called “The Renewal of the Spirit”.

People ask questions like “why is loud music associated” and "isn’t it just emotional.

Rather than saying everything it ‘can be’ which is a lot, including having loud music and emotions associated with it, lets explain what it is as simply as possible.

First we should differentiate from being “charismatic” and being filled with the holy spirit through the “baptism in the holy spirit”.

To receive the baptism in the spirit is not to receive the baptism in water, nor is it to receive confirmation. The only man allowed to preach to the pope, Ranerio Cantalamessa, makes this clear. In his words the baptism in the spirit is a renewal or release of what we received in baptism and confirmation. The gifts of the spirit are manifestations of the spirit, we receive the spirit at baptism and are sealed at confirmation, but if we are not open to the holy spirit manifesting in his gifts(such as tongues or prophecy) then it won’t happen. The baptism in the spirit is essentially us saying “I am open to your holy spirit manifesting in me”

Now Charismatic means gifts. I think there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding even among charismatics on what being charismatic means. To be charismatic basically means you choose to operate in the charismatic gifts of the holy spirit. St. Paul said we should eagerly desire these gifts for our lives.

Most people that experience the holy spirit coming alive in them through the baptism in the holy spirit are filled with a joy they have never had before. This leads many to uplifting contemporary praise and worship, but for others this leads them to more traditional worship and even gregorian chant.

So to be clear, being “charismatic” does not mean you have to love contemporary christian music, it does not mean you must speak in tongues(although this is the most common gift given). Really what its about is being open to the holy spirit doing whatever he wants and leading you wherever he wants whether this be to contemporary, loud, praise and worship music or to gregorian chant. Most mature charismatics are VERY contemplative and you will find them in silent eucharistic adoration more often than any other spirituality. In the church today most servants in the church such as sacristans are actually closet charismatics. Eucharistic adoration and the Mass are some of the greatest tools in renewing our church and that is what the charismatic RENEWAL, or RENEWAL of the spirit, is all about.

Hope this helps. Also our current pope said "“Let us rediscover, dear brothers and sisters, the beauty of being baptized in the Holy Spirit; let us be aware again of our baptism and of our confirmation, sources of grace that are always present.” - and this just reaffirms that the baptism in the spirit is a renewal of what we receive sacramentally. It helps us “be aware again” of our baptism and confirmation. 🙂
 
The ‘Charismatic Renewal’ is a new movement in Catholicism. It looks like Protestant Tent Revivalism. That saints in our church may have shared some characteristics of modern Charismatics is not exactly the same as saying the movement is traditional.
 
AntiqueCatholic said:
The ‘Charismatic Renewal’ is a new movement in Catholicism. It looks like Protestant Tent Revivalism. That saints in our church may have shared some characteristics of modern Charismatics is not exactly the same as saying the movement is traditional.
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in the 400s AD it is recorded that the entire catholic church, all christians were operating in the charismatic gifts of the holy spirit. I don’t think I would call them “charismatic” since that means something very different to different people, but they did all receive the baptism in the holy spirit and operated in the charisms such as the gift of tongues. St. Ambrose, bishop of milan in the 400s, said “Let us drink the sober intoxication of the spirit with joy!” Can you explain this? How have you drunk this sober intoxication in your life?

I think in recent times, since the 70s, many charismatics in the church have experienced something very similar to what the corinthian church experienced. St. Paul writes to them basically saying you are getting prideful about your gifts, they are meant to be used through love(Corinthians 13 famous for speaking on love is actually located between corinthians 12 and 14 which are the biggest chapters in the bible for talking about the charismatic gifts, its there for a reason, 13 talks about using the gifts of the spirit through love). I know many charismatics in the church can be very prideful about the gifts, I also know that many of them are not and are very humble. These people you don’t as often realize are charismatic such as Blessed John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI who said he wishes everyone would be baptized in the spirit.

I’d like to say this. If you are anti-charismatic or just indifferent and come with an open heart to someone who is “charismatic” to discuss it with him, but get turned off by him then he has failed to love. " Corinthians13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
 
rugger4christ said:
in the 400s AD it is recorded that the entire catholic church, all christians were operating in the charismatic gifts of the holy spirit. I don’t think I would call them “charismatic” since that means something very different to different people, but they did all receive the baptism in the holy spirit and operated in the charisms such as the gift of tongues. St. Ambrose, bishop of milan in the 400s, said “Let us drink the sober intoxication of the spirit with joy!” Can you explain this? How have you drunk this sober intoxication in your life?

I think in recent times, since the 70s, many charismatics in the church have experienced something very similar to what the corinthian church experienced. St. Paul writes to them basically saying you are getting prideful about your gifts, they are meant to be used through love(Corinthians 13 famous for speaking on love is actually located between corinthians 12 and 14 which are the biggest chapters in the bible for talking about the charismatic gifts, its there for a reason, 13 talks about using the gifts of the spirit through love). I know many charismatics in the church can be very prideful about the gifts, I also know that many of them are not and are very humble. These people you don’t as often realize are charismatic such as Blessed John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI who said he wishes everyone would be baptized in the spirit.

I’d like to say this. If you are anti-charismatic or just indifferent and come with an open heart to someone who is “charismatic” to discuss it with him, but get turned off by him then he has failed to love. " Corinthians13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
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St. Paul had many “restrictions” or parameters to speaking in tongues. As another poster in this thread has pointedout, and supported by John Salza at his website.

scripturecatholic.com/tongues.html

Would you think this description by Mr. Salza of St. Pauls teaching to be objective and accurate?
 
AntiqueCatholic said:
The ‘Charismatic Renewal’ is a new movement in Catholicism. It looks like Protestant Tent Revivalism. That saints in our church may have shared some characteristics of modern Charismatics is not exactly the same as saying the movement is traditional.
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The Holy Spirit is traditional. If that tradition is lost, or diminished, how is one then to regain it? That would require a movement, would it not?
 
po18guy said:
The Holy Spirit is traditional. If that tradition is lost, or diminished, how is one then to regain it? That would require a movement, would it not?
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The Church has never lost or diminished the Holy Spirit, from my point of view. To seek these gifts from the HS seems self-centered to me. We are free to accept these gifts, when God blesses us with such a gift, but to get together with hundreds of others who are all looking for “something” just doesn’t sit right with me.

Would you go to a Christmas party at work and expect to be given a Christmas Bonus? 🤷

This whole CCR thing just seems to unreal to me… I have a hard time excepting it on what you all have provided.🤷
 
I found a quote from from the/once head British “chairman of the ICCR”, would any of you agree with his statement?

“Whatever distracts from the primary focus–the openness to the Holy Spirit–I do not want to see in the charismatic renewal,” says a cautious Charles Whitehead, British chairman of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal (ICCR). … “But I am concerned (!)when charismatic prayer groups include devotion to Mary and start praying the rosary,” he told Charisma. “I do not see this as openness to the Holy Spirit, but rather as a return to traditional piety.” (CHARISMA MAGAZINE)

This, seem to me, highly problematic. Maybe one of you active in the movement can explain this statement better then CHARISMA MAG. did.🤷
 
The Church has never lost or diminished the Holy Spirit, from my point of view. To seek these gifts from the HS seems self-centered to me. We are free to accept these gifts, when God blesses us with such a gift, but to get together with hundreds of others who are all looking for “something” just doesn’t sit right with me.
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No, of course the Church has never lost the Holy Spirit. But it has lost the understanding of one of the most basic roles the Holy Spirit plays in the life of the Church, and Vatican II and the CCR movement are attempting to bring that understanding back into the light.

I often hear people saying that seeking these gifts if self-centered, and I think it shows really how far the misunderstanding has gone. The charismatic gifts are primarily gifts orientated towards service of others in the Body of Christ. They are meant to be given away, in a sense. If you have the gift of healing, for instance, it is not for you. It’s for someone that God uses you to heal. Or a prophecy. God uses you as His instrument to build up someone else’s faith. This is the basic way the Mystical Body is supposed to work, according to Paul. Each are given their own charisms, which play off each other (like hands and legs and eyes in the Body). They are meant to be of service.

I think people so often confuse extraordinary spiritual consolations (like for instance visions or private revelations) with the charisms. We should certainly not seek these. But the charisms are on a different level. They almost must be sought, because the Holy Spirit requires us to be open and cooperating with His grace in order for us to make use of the charisms. And Scripture is clear about seeking them: Seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. Seek to have an abundance of charisms for the upbuilding of the church. Paul’s many injunctions to pray in tongues. They should not be sought rashly, as Lumen gentium notes, but…

This movement is traditional, because it goes back to the very basic underlying dimension of christian life - the charismatic dimension. See above. I mean, technically, speaking in tongues you know was the first thing the Catholic Church ever did. See Acts 2. 😃 Yeah, it’s totally traditional. That’s why it’s called a “renewal” movement. It’s bringing back something from the past.
 
Irish_Polock said:
I found a quote from from the/once head British “chairman of the ICCR”, would any of you agree with his statement?

“Whatever distracts from the primary focus–the openness to the Holy Spirit–I do not want to see in the charismatic renewal,” says a cautious Charles Whitehead, British chairman of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal (ICCR). … “But I am concerned (!)when charismatic prayer groups include devotion to Mary and start praying the rosary,” he told Charisma. “I do not see this as openness to the Holy Spirit, but rather as a return to traditional piety.” (CHARISMA MAGAZINE)

This, seem to me, highly problematic. Maybe one of you active in the movement can explain this statement better then CHARISMA MAG. did.🤷
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Hmm, that is a troubling statement. But I know the movement as a whole is absolutely supportive and leading the way in Marian devotion. I myself, and nearly all charismatics I know, have a very intense Marian devotion. I pray the rosary daily. In fact, the US bishops noted in their document on the CCR Grace for a New Springtime that the CCR has done much for Marian devotion.

In any case, I do see Marian devotion as openness to the Holy Spirit. She is the “aqueduct of grace”, through which all grace passes through. She is the “spouse of the Holy Spirit”. I do not understand Mr. Whitehead’s statement at all.
 
vardaquinn said:
No, of course the Church has never lost the Holy Spirit. But it has lost the understanding of one of the most basic roles the Holy Spirit plays in the life of the Church, and Vatican II and the CCR movement are attempting to bring that understanding back into the light.

I often hear people saying that seeking these gifts if self-centered, and I think it shows really how far the misunderstanding has gone. The charismatic gifts are primarily gifts orientated towards service of others in the Body of Christ. They are meant to be given away, in a sense. If you have the gift of healing, for instance, it is not for you. It’s for someone that God uses you to heal. Or a prophecy. God uses you as His instrument to build up someone else’s faith. This is the basic way the Mystical Body is supposed to work, according to Paul. Each are given their own charisms, which play off each other (like hands and legs and eyes in the Body). They are meant to be of service.

I think people so often confuse extraordinary spiritual consolations (like for instance visions or private revelations) with the charisms. We should certainly not seek these. But the charisms are on a different level. They almost must be sought, because the Holy Spirit requires us to be open and cooperating with His grace in order for us to make use of the charisms. And Scripture is clear about seeking them: Seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. Seek to have an abundance of charisms for the upbuilding of the church. Paul’s many injunctions to pray in tongues. They should not be sought rashly, as Lumen gentium notes, but…

This movement is traditional, because it goes back to the very basic underlying dimension of christian life - the charismatic dimension. See above. I mean, technically, speaking in tongues you know was the first thing the Catholic Church ever did. See Acts 2. 😃 Yeah, it’s totally traditional. That’s why it’s called a “renewal” movement. It’s bringing back something from the past.
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So you would disagree with the dogmatic teaching of our Mother Church, with regards to her indefectibility, essential holiness, uniqueness as the “one only Church” and her full and unfailing possession of the means of sanctification?

How could your statement of:
vardaquinn said:
No, of course the Church has never lost the Holy Spirit. But it has lost the understanding of one of the most basic roles the Holy Spirit plays in the life of the Church
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…not contradict the infallible dogmatic teachings of her being indefectibe and unfailing? I do not see the errors promulgated by her that you are seeing. I do not see her having lost anything.
 
vardaquinn said:
Hmm, that is a troubling statement. But I know the movement as a whole is absolutely supportive and leading the way in Marian devotion. I myself, and nearly all charismatics I know, have a very intense Marian devotion. I pray the rosary daily. In fact, the US bishops noted in their document on the CCR Grace for a New Springtime that the CCR has done much for Marian devotion.

In any case, I do see Marian devotion as openness to the Holy Spirit. She is the “aqueduct of grace”, through which all grace passes through. She is the “spouse of the Holy Spirit”. I do not understand Mr. Whitehead’s statement at all.
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Is it the norm for individuals to pray the Rosary at the events? If not why?
 
Irish_Polock said:
St. Paul had many “restrictions” or parameters to speaking in tongues. As another poster in this thread has pointedout, and supported by John Salza at his website.

scripturecatholic.com/tongues.html

Would you think this description by Mr. Salza of St. Pauls teaching to be objective and accurate?
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No, it contradicts most of what the church teaches on the gift of tongues and he even takes scripture out of context such as 1 corinthians 13:8.

Now there is truth in some of what he said if put in the right context. The gift of tongues is perhaps the primary gift that can be used for personal edification. It can be your own personal prayer language to God, a language you have never sinned in. You must understand what was happening in the corinthian church. A lot of what he said was accurate about what was going on. There were a lot of prideful people, and what he was trying to say is that if tongues is spoken in a prophetic way at a meeting(in the corinthian church what was happening is everyone was speaking in tongues at the same time and it was just a great clashing that helped nobody). Then only one person should speak at a time and either that person or another person must be able to interpret the tongue. I know of one person that has this gift of interpreting tongues. Now at a lot of meetings you will see many people all praising God in tongues, this is not what St. Paul is talking about. It is fine for people to praise God in tongues and in their own language, but it is not edifying if someone speaks a message in tongues for the group and nobody can interpret.

When I have been prayed over in tongues without an interpretation it has always been a very powerful thing for me and I can feel the presence of God powerfully. Speaking in tongues allows a person to be more greatly used by the holy spirit because it takes a great deal of humility for a person to babble in public. You really have to yield to God for this gift to operate.
Irish_Polock said:
To seek these gifts from the HS seems self-centered to me. We are free to accept these gifts, when God blesses us with such a gift, but to get together with hundreds of others who are all looking for “something” just doesn’t sit right with me.

Would you go to a Christmas party at work and expect to be given a Christmas Bonus?
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1 Corinthians 12:31 “31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way” St. Paul told us we not only must seek the greatest gifts but we must do so eagerly or earnestly. Why? The gifts are in general not for our personal benefit but for the benefit of God’s people for us to use in service through love. Did Jesus’s gift of healing benefit himself or others more? What about his gift of miracles?
Irish_Polock said:
I found a quote from from the/once head British “chairman of the ICCR”, would any of you agree with his statement?

“Whatever distracts from the primary focus–the openness to the Holy Spirit–I do not want to see in the charismatic renewal,” says a cautious Charles Whitehead, British chairman of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal (ICCR). … “But I am concerned (!)when charismatic prayer groups include devotion to Mary and start praying the rosary,” he told Charisma. “I do not see this as openness to the Holy Spirit, but rather as a return to traditional piety.” (CHARISMA MAGAZINE)

This, seem to me, highly problematic. Maybe one of you active in the movement can explain this statement better then CHARISMA MAG. did.🤷
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I would like a link to the article please. If this quote is legit and in the context it appears here than he is simply wrong. At the charismatic conferences I have gone to devotion to Mary is usually the third thing spoken of, 1st being giving your life to Christ and 2nd being filled with the holy spirit. We usually say a hail mary at the beginning of every prayer meeting we have.
 
Irish_Polock said:
Is it the norm for individuals to pray the Rosary at the events? If not why?
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It is not the every meeting practice but we certainly have meetings where we pray the rosary or divine mercy chaplet.

A typical meeting might be like this:

7pm - Arrival, praise and worship
7:30pm - prophecy/anyone have a word from God for the group?
7:45 - teaching, in our case usually given by a Franciscan T.O.R. priest
8:10 - small group discussion
8:30 - prayer ministry for anyone desiring to be prayed with and opportunity for confession from the priest (usually 75% of the room immediately gets in line for confession, this type of response is unheard of at other events)
9:00 - closing
 
Irish_Polock said:
The Church has never lost or diminished the Holy Spirit, from my point of view. To seek these gifts from the HS seems self-centered to me. We are free to accept these gifts, when God blesses us with such a gift, but to get together with hundreds of others who are all looking for “something” just doesn’t sit right with me.

Would you go to a Christmas party at work and expect to be given a Christmas Bonus? 🤷

This whole CCR thing just seems to unreal to me… I have a hard time excepting it on what you all have provided.🤷
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As harsh as this may sound, the Church has spoken. You have spoken. You disagree with the Church. There’s nothing more to say. I’ll continue praying for you.
 
po18guy said:
As harsh as this may sound, the Church has spoken. You have spoken. You disagree with the Church. There’s nothing more to say. I’ll continue praying for you.
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Rest of the post is fine and good, but this last one is often a passive-aggressive jab at the other one’s holiness, whether its realized or not. It’s not good when either side does it, and it should be called out. Ending an argument in “I’ll pray for you” is a veiled way of saying “I’m hoping God can penetrate through your density”. You may not have meant it this way, but it’s often how it comes off - and people can be prayed for without being told so.
 
ChiRho said:
Rest of the post is fine and good, but this last one is often a passive-aggressive jab at the other one’s holiness, whether its realized or not. It’s not good when either side does it, and it should be called out. Ending an argument in “I’ll pray for you” is a veiled way of saying “I’m hoping God can penetrate through your density”. You may not have meant it this way, but it’s often how it comes off - and people can be prayed for without being told so.
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Would you pray for me then?
 
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