Charismatic Catholicism?

[Denise1957]

Whoa! Not at all!

What I am trying to say is that, if the Church does not teach about charisms, (in light of the catechism and scripture), and about how they are desirable for the building up of the Church, then and only then, it is the fault of the Church.

What is your specific objection to the charisms? Do you think that using them is somehow harmful?

I have not said that I object to charisms. But what I keep trying to point out is that the types of charisms to which you refer are not those of a sanctifying nature. Speaking in tongues, propheseying, and other types of charisms such as this, are considered extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost. They do not replace the ordinary gifts, which are meant to sanctify and help us maintain our state in life. Here’s an EWTN article which may help explain it better than I can:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/spira4.htm

I have to get ready to go to work now, so I can’t respond further today.

 

[po18guy]

to keep hidden?

Go back and look at post #115. When I said that the Church does not teach that we must speak in tongues and prophesy in order to save our souls, you specifically replied to this that St. Paul does, in scripture, and that the Church is in agreement with all of scripture, and that if the Church does not so teach, it is no fault of the charisms, or scripture, but of the Church alone.

I took what you wrote to mean that you think the Church has been in error by not teaching that we must speak in tongues and prophesy in order to save our souls. Or did you mean something else?

Delete the last six words of your sentence (“in order to save our souls”), and read my reply again. My bad for not keying in your your inclusion of those six words.

The Church has spoken. Please read the catechism (CCC 798-801)… I am not here to debate, but to bear witness to the goodness and right use of the charisms in the building up of the Church. I have made my case as best I can. If i have failed, then I bear that burden.

Please ask your priest about the charisms. I am sure that he can clear this up for you.

 

[ChiRho]

I do not think so at all. Why do we demand proof of the mysterious ways in which God works? If someone is speaking a tongue only to build themselves up, why do we disdain that process? Some of us need much building up.

It is curious that such a large number of people apparently have the gift of tongues, when St. Paul said it was the least important one. Of course, it is also the most obvious of charisms, which leads me to believe that some are psyching themselves into something that they don’t actually have.

Proof is not a bad thing to have – The Church investigates miracles and apparitions, so I don’t see why requesting evidence for something like this is dubious.

 

[po18guy]

It is curious that such a large number of people apparently have the gift of tongues, when St. Paul said it was the least important one. Of course, it is also the most obvious of charisms, which leads me to believe that some are psyching themselves into something that they don’t actually have.

Proof is not a bad thing to have – The Church investigates miracles and apparitions, so I don’t see why requesting evidence for something like this is dubious.

As it is with hearts, we find trouble when we attempt to judge another’s spirituality. By their fruits you shall know them. They are to test the fruits, and so are we.

I notice that all who doubt, or who question the validity of the charisms, seem to be looking from the outside in. A challenge to you and to all: attend a “Life in the Spirit” seminar. Go and watch. Ask questions. If you find something that appeals to your spirit, inquire into the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which is often done by a Priest or even a Bishop).

As I have stated, I did this rather reluctantly a few years ago, but trusted God and our Priest, who is associated with the Charismatic Renewal. My charism was released and my faith life burst into action. Notice that concerns and fears remain with those who have not experienced it?

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[ChiRho]

Notice that concerns and fears remain with those who have not experienced it?
.

Plenty of people have experienced it, or come into close contact with people who have experienced it, or have read trusted accounts of those who experience it. I think you should just accept that some people aren’t going to like it, and will disagree with it, instead of arguing that anyone who has actually experienced it likes it. It turns into a No True Scotsman Fallacy because then people bicker “oh, no you didn’t really experience it”, when the experience they are challenging was a perfectly valid one to form an opinion of.

 

[po18guy]

Plenty of people have experienced it, or come into close contact with people who have experienced it, or have read trusted accounts of those who experience it. I think you should just accept that some people aren’t going to like it, and will disagree with it, instead of arguing that anyone who has actually experienced it likes it. It turns into a No True Scotsman Fallacy because then people bicker “oh, no you didn’t really experience it”, when the experience they are challenging was a perfectly valid one to form an opinion of.

Not quite. No one opposed on this thread has any experience with the renewal. Doesn’t that say something?

You’re ducking the challenge.

 

[ChiRho]

Not quite. No one opposed on this thread has any experience with the renewal. Doesn’t that say something?

You’re ducking the challenge.

define experience. Several people in this thread have recounted personal encounters that they did not enjoy, are those not good enough? Many people have come into contact with people in the renewal, are familiar with the practices, is that not good enough? What do you want everyone to do?

 

[Road2Damascus]

arlingtonrenewal.org/ Here is a Catholic Renewal website, Arlington (I assume) Va.

Some good things there including CCC 799-801 as mentioned earlier. arlingtonrenewal.org/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit

Not coming down on one side or another, thought someone might find this interesting.

 

[po18guy]

define experience. Several people in this thread have recounted personal encounters that they did not enjoy, are those not good enough? Many people have come into contact with people in the renewal, are familiar with the practices, is that not good enough? What do you want everyone to do?

I don’t really want them to do anything, except maybe to stop doubting what they have not personally experienced. Talking to others is not experiencing the Holy Spirit. Watching others is not the release of one’s own charism. My wish is that all Catholics would know the supernatural graces that can come from the working of the Spirit. That’s why it’s called a renewal.

 

[po18guy]

arlingtonrenewal.org/ Here is a Catholic Renewal website, Arlington (I assume) Va.

Some good things there including CCC 799-801 as mentioned earlier. arlingtonrenewal.org/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit

Not coming down on one side or another, thought someone might find this interesting.

I do not think that anyone who has experienced the baptism (small ‘b’) in the Holy Spirit has ever regretted it. In my case, it made an absolute night and day difference in my faith, in my prayer, in my evangelization efforts, and in my relationship with God. Night and day.

And, not a single word in a tongue. Imagine that…

 

[vardaquinn]

So… to correct many misconceptions…

What you’re referring to is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, a worldwide renewal movement that picked up in 1967. It is a movement basically with the intention of renewing the focus and understanding on the basic way the Church works: through the experience of Pentecost, and then receiving gifts “charisms” of the Holy Spirit that are put to the service of the Church. This focus and understanding was very lacking for much of Church history, and as a fruit of Vatican II (which re-emphasized the charisms) this movement was born. Things like “speaking in tongues” are legitimate charisms described in scripture (see 1 Corinthians 14), and are typically associated with this movement. It is not a typical movement, in that it should not be something one “joins”. It is not an inter-Catholic denominational type thing.

The Church has given strong support to this movement, particularly Bl. Pope John Paul II, who emphasized that the charismatic dimension of the faith, along with the institutional, is co-essential to the very nature of the church.

Basically: we’re all supposed to be Charismatic Catholics.

 

[Joe_5859]

Basically: we’re all supposed to be Charismatic Catholics.

If by this you mean that all Catholics ought to foster a relationship with the Holy Spirit and utilize the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, then yes.

If by this you mean that all Catholics need to be part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement, then no.

 

[KristyRae44657]

Wow! This sure caught my attention - I was raised Pentecostal.

I had no clue there were Charismatic Catholics. Not like that is the direction I want to take - it just took me by surprise.

I grew up in churches where many spoke in tongues - as well as dancing at the altar (what we Catholics refer to as the Sanctuary). It was respectful dancing - nothing highly inappropriate. (If you want to call ‘dancing’ at the ‘altar’ appropriate under any circumstance)

What I was taught - basically, speaking in tongues is a manifestation of being ‘filled with the holy spirit’. It’s a ‘private prayer language’ that only God understands.

Growing up Pentecostal had it’s awkward moments. I have a mom who professes to have been ‘filled with the holy spirit’ in the late 70’s and then shortly afterward received her ‘gift’ of speaking in tongues. Other people in the church would sort of look at you strange if you weren’t speaking in tongues - sort of like ‘you must be doing something very wrong in your life’ if you don’t have the ‘gift’.

I think it’s pretty obvious one of the things that has drawn me to the Catholic church :getholy:

Beyond the ‘basics’ - I really don’t know much about the subject. I never ‘got’ the ‘gift’. These were my teen years (the 80’s) and I was considered rebellious because I didn’t want to belong to a ‘charismatic’ or ‘pentecostal’ church. At 17 years old I wanted to try some of the various churches in my hometown versus going to mom’s church. One of them was Catholic. She blew her top and said ‘as long as you live under my roof’…

OOhhh…just wait til she finds out that hubby and I are going to be Catholic. :bigyikes:

 

[josephback]

I dislike anything that seems over emotional but if the Popes are ok with it then I have to conform my opinion to the Church. I haven’t experienced the Catholic variety but grew up Assemblies of God. I wanted to be Lutheran because I thought they were the intellectual, “rational” faith. This whole fear of being overly emotional is probably just a really bad hangup.

 

[josephback]

You know, David danced before the Ark of the Lord and Michal despised him for it. Now guess who God was pleased with?

My point is we have to be careful:yup:

 

[Joe_5859]

Wow! This sure caught my attention - I was raised Pentecostal.

I had no clue there were Charismatic Catholics. Not like that is the direction I want to take - it just took me by surprise.

You’re in the Diocese of Steubenville, and you had no clue there were Charismatic Catholics? You must not go up to Franciscan University very often.

Franciscan University has a Charismatic Catholic Conference every summer, in addition to the monthly “Festivals of Praise” when school is in session.

 

[Humupower]

I think there is a massive amount of of misinformation and misunderstanding about what it means to be a Charismatic Catholic. People have all sorts of ideas.

Everyone I know who is a charismatic Catholic does pretty much everything any other good Catholic does - we go to mass(some of us daily), we pray the rosary, we say our novenas, we respect the authority of the magisterium of the Church, we go to confession regularly even weekly, we have bible studies/scripture sharing, we go to adoration, etc.

Most of the actual charismatic side of things extends to our faith lives outside of the above things. I have never met a charismatic who would speak in tongues during mass or anything crazy like that. People don’t convulse on the floor or anything.

Most charismatic activity occurs in prayer meetings. We get together during the week, sometimes at people’s homes. We pray over each other if someone has a concern, we share prophecy, exhortation, teaching, reflection on the scripture. At the urging of God, we explore different passages of scripture. We discuss profound and beautiful ways that God has answered our prayers, we support the ministry and evangilization of others in our groups.

Having spent a ton of time around mainstream Catholics, liberal Catholics, and charismatic Catholics, unless you were specifically at a charismatic event, you could not tell a charismatic apart from a mainstream Catholic, unless they told you that they were charismatic. Though the charismatics I have met are often really, really, really into their devotions.

I don’t think there is much room for abuse either. Most of my friends are deeply respectful and reverent of the magisterium. If anyone had a personal revelation of any kind that went against the official teaching of the Church, everyone would call that person out for it, and would call them out to further discern what they are saying.

Since becoming charismatic, I have developed a deep spiritual hunger for things like the catechism of the Church, the encyclical letters of the recent popes, the theology of the body, etc. My charismatic life has been the catalyst for my accepting the truth and authority of the Church.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I think there is a massive amount of of misinformation and misunderstanding about what it means to be a Charismatic Catholic. People have all sorts of ideas.

Everyone I know who is a charismatic Catholic does pretty much everything any other good Catholic does - we go to mass(some of us daily), we pray the rosary, we say our novenas, we respect the authority of the magisterium of the Church, we go to confession regularly even weekly, we have bible studies/scripture sharing, we go to adoration, etc.

Most of the actual charismatic side of things extends to our faith lives outside of the above things. I have never met a charismatic who would speak in tongues during mass or anything crazy like that. People don’t convulse on the floor or anything.
**
Most charismatic activity occurs in prayer meetings. ** We get together during the week, sometimes at people’s homes. We pray over each other if someone has a concern, we share prophecy, exhortation, teaching, reflection on the scripture. At the urging of God, we explore different passages of scripture. We discuss profound and beautiful ways that God has answered our prayers, we support the ministry and evangilization of others in our groups.

Having spent a ton of time around mainstream Catholics, liberal Catholics, and charismatic Catholics, unless you were specifically at a charismatic event, you could not tell a charismatic apart from a mainstream Catholic, unless they told you that they were charismatic. Though the charismatics I have met are often really, really, really into their devotions.

**I don’t think there is much room for abuse either. Most of my friends are deeply respectful and reverent of the magisterium. If anyone had a personal revelation of any kind that went against the official teaching of the Church, everyone would call that person out for it, and would call them out to further discern what they are saying.
**
Since becoming charismatic, I have developed a deep spiritual hunger for things like the catechism of the Church, the encyclical letters of the recent popes, the theology of the body, etc. My charismatic life has been the catalyst for my accepting the truth and authority of the Church.

It’s not so much about calling one out for it, in a setting such as you describe, an interpreter would always be needed.

1 Cor. 14: [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

Likewise, a setting in a home would be this same kind of setting. If an interpreter is not there, one should keep their silence.

 

[po18guy]

If by this you mean that all Catholics ought to foster a relationship with the Holy Spirit and utilize the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, then yes.

If by this you mean that all Catholics need to be part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement, then no.

No movement would ever have been needed or formed had the focus upon the Holy Spirit not been lost somewhere along the way.

 

[po18guy]

I dislike anything that seems over emotional but if the Popes are ok with it then I have to conform my opinion to the Church. I haven’t experienced the Catholic variety but grew up Assemblies of God. I wanted to be Lutheran because I thought they were the intellectual, “rational” faith. This whole fear of being overly emotional is probably just a really bad hangup.

Conversely, I see the tendency to over-rationalize faith as just sucking the life out of it.