Charismatic Catholics

[guanophore]

I just don’t know why there is so much controversy doesn’t the bible mention the gifts

I think there are several reasons for this. One is that many Catholics have not been properly catechized in this area. I know that was the case for me.

Another is that people are naturally afraid of things they don’t control. When a person yields to the HS, and allows the HS to be in control, it is taking a risk to trust God, and most people have trouble wtih taking risks in relationships and trust.

Another is (and this is being addressed on another thread right now) is that many people are put off (rightfully so) by all the abuses of the gifts that have occurred. They mistakely think that the gifts, as well as the abuses, should not be part of the Church.

is receiving the gifts frowned upon by people or something, why do you want me to warn people that im so called charismatic.

Yes, if you read some of the posts on the other thread I linked above,you will find quite a bit of objection to the charismatic gifts. People seem to believe that, since Protestants have misused and abused them, that they originated in heretical circles. This is simply not true, as the scripture clearly shows, the gifts of Pentecost are the birthright of the Church founded by Christ, and no amount of abuse by those who have departed from that faith will change that fact.

I don’t look to always get gifts when i go to adoration i just remain open to the spirit and that is what happens, i have never heard anyone treat them like this before

This kind of openness is the risk to which I am referring. If one goes with an open mind like this, one might receive a gift that they did not want, or that is frightening to them. I have been studying the lives of the saints, and clearly they often received gifts that they did not want, or felt could not exercise properly. It requires a total dependence upon God, which is hard for humans to do.

please explain to me why you don’t look upon this as something good and no “normal” catholic would do this.

I look forward to reading about this also.

 

[PatriceA]

My ignorance? I’m still waiting on an answer to this post.

Please enlighten me as to how sleeping, or hysterics serve the needs of the community.

Perhaps if you were part of a charismatic community, you would be able to see how the gifts of the Holy Spirit benefit that community. But since you are so critical of this whole movement, any explanation would be lost on you since you have such a closed mind. Its like trying to explain how Eucharistic adoration benefits someone when they have never gone to adoration or don’t believe in the true presence in the Eucharist, or trying to explain to a non-Catholic how reconciliation benefits someone if they don’t believe they need to confess their sins to a priest.

But you’ve already formed your opinion, you really don’t want an explanation, just more material to continue bashing other Catholics that do participate in the Charismatic movement.

 

[guanophore]

Those retreats are part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal… and do not represent the traditional Catholic Church any more than the Knights of Columbus or the Confraternity of Christian Mothers do.

This is an absurd statement. Both of these societies most certainly represent traditional Catholicism. I think it is more appropriate to say they “reflect” traditional Catholic faith and practice. I have been around Knights of Columbus for 50 years, and NEVER met one that did not have tradtiional Catholic values and practice.

It is an expression of one’s spirituality, traditional, Catholic spirituality.

With regard to the validity of "tongues" or any of these other "gifts"...  this has been well covered in other threads.  I did not mean to derail this thread - I only wished to clarify that Charismatic practices during Adoration are no more the norm than Clown Masses.

I think maybe you have a warped perception of the Charismatic practices during Adoration.

Clown masses are a liturgical abuse.

Charismatic practices are not. Granted, there are abuses of them, but to say they are all like “clown masses” is the same as saying that all liturgies do not reflect traditional Catholic faith, because there are liturgical abuses. It just does not logically follow.

 

[joe_cool]

I think maybe you have a warped perception of the Charismatic practices during Adoration.

I actually have it straight from the horse’s mouth:

sleeping
laughing
babbling like a buffoon

I would like to know how ANY of these benefit the community.

 

[FAB]

I actually have it straight from the horse’s mouth:

sleeping
laughing
babbling like a buffoon

I would like to know how ANY of these benefit the community.

All answered previously, you choose to ignore the answer.

 

[guanophore]

Now THIS is a great post.

Our friend described the following “gifts of the spirit” received while at Adoration:

• sleeping
• laughing
• babbling like a pagan

How would you say that these things meet the needs of the community… specifically?

Perhaps I missed this post, but the phenomenon of being “slain in the spirit” is not “sleeping”. Although, falling asleep during adoration is not uncommon, from the Apostolic times to this day.

God is able to gift people in a sleeping state just as much as He is when they are alert.

Laughing, definitely comes in the form of one of the gifts of the spirit rarely occurs during adoration.

“babbling like a pagan” is not one of the gift so the Spirit. If this is how you describe praying in tongues, then yes, it does build up the Church.

 

[guanophore]

idk if it does or not but my slain in the spirit expeince has ahd visions involved with it. I told of it I don't know if people where changed by it, or if the ways it changed me helped others change. [/qutoe]

Any time an individual believer grows in holiness and the knowlege of God, this benefits the whole Body. The closer we walk with Jesus, the more we are in a position to perform the good works that He has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
catholictiger;6983419:

v But these visions do come back to me at times in my prayer, and have made strange connections to my life.

many people in the group i was with recieved the gift and i don’t if this help the community

You will know them by their fruits. Do the gifts help them to transform their lives to live with the Character of Christ?

same thigns with tounges i don’t know how they effected the community but i think it could have epically cause in one experince someone was able ot interperate the tounges and his life could have been changed, became more devot in his faith or something

Yes, this is the whole purpose of any form of prayer, tongues being only one. When one person is transformed to become more devout in faith, this helps to transform the Church.

Maybe some where faked not with me but the people around.

Yes, I am sure that some do.

it can be hard for us mortals to see the spirit working in our community but i think somehow all my experiences benefited the community in some way.

To the extent that your character is more formed in the likeness of the Son, then the Body of Christ is enriched.

 

[joe_cool]

Perhaps if you were part of a charismatic community, you would be able to see how the gifts of the Holy Spirit benefit that community. But since you are so critical of this whole movement, any explanation would be lost on you since you have such a closed mind. Its like trying to explain how Eucharistic adoration benefits someone when they have never gone to adoration or don’t believe in the true presence in the Eucharist, or trying to explain to a non-Catholic how reconciliation benefits someone if they don’t believe they need to confess their sins to a priest.

But you’ve already formed your opinion, you really don’t want an explanation, just more material to continue bashing other Catholics that do participate in the Charismatic movement.

LOL. This is classic.

“Become a Charismatic, and then you’ll get answers”

This is just yet another example of the Charismatic recruitment mentality. “I could explain it to you, but you’ll just have to experience it for yourself”

Translation:

I can’t explain it - there is NO legitimate basis for these practices other than how they make me feel good… and I refuse to justify my oxytocin addiction.

This is the crux of my objection with you people, right here: it’s about whipping yourself into a frenzy so you can get a neurochemical high.

I tell you what… let’s play a new game:

Name ONE SINGLE Catholic Saint who was a charismatic. Supply writings where they speak of babbling like pagans in a non-existent language, sleeping during Adoration, or laughing hysterically.

If your “movement” is legitimate, and “rooted in the traditional Church”, this should not be a problem.

 

[joe_cool]

Perhaps I missed this post, but the phenomenon of being “slain in the spirit” is not “sleeping”. Although, falling asleep during adoration is not uncommon, from the Apostolic times to this day.

God is able to gift people in a sleeping state just as much as He is when they are alert.

Laughing, definitely comes in the form of one of the gifts of the spirit rarely occurs during adoration.

“babbling like a pagan” is not one of the gift so the Spirit. If this is how you describe praying in tongues, then yes, it does build up the Church.

That’s not how I describe it - it’s how St. Matthew described it.

 

[PatriceA]

LOL. This is classic.

“Become a Charismatic, and then you’ll get answers”

This is just yet another example of the Charismatic recruitment mentality. “I could explain it to you, but you’ll just have to experience it for yourself”

Translation:

I can’t explain it - there is NO legitimate basis for these practices other than how they make me feel good… and I refuse to justify my oxytocin addiction.

This is the crux of my objection with you people, right here: it’s about whipping yourself into a frenzy so you can get a neurochemical high.

I tell you what… let’s play a new game:

Name ONE SINGLE Catholic Saint who was a charismatic. Supply writings where they speak of babbling like pagans in a non-existent language, sleeping during Adoration, or laughing hysterically.

If your “movement” is legitimate, and “rooted in the traditional Church”, this should not be a problem.

saint-mike.org/library/rule/excerpts/spiritual_gifts.asp

 

[guanophore]

Awesome. So then the homeless are actually Charismatic Missionaries… given they sleep in public? Do YOU feel an overwhelming sense of serenity and peace when you see a sleeping homeless man?

Clearly you have confused resting in the Spirit with the normal state of sleep. This is just a misunderstanding on your part.

This is not an answer to my question - this is a rationalization.

You asked how the state of restfulness during Adoration helped him, and he answered you with honesty. If you refuse to accept that he considered his restfulness before the Blessed Sacrament as a gift from God, that is your problem. He is not rationalizing anything.

When you laugh… is it because something is funny? Or is it because other people are laughing?

Neither. The gift that is commonly referred to as “Holy Laughter” is a bubbling up from deep inside of the sheer joy of the Spirit within.

The former is normal - the latter is hysteria. Look familiar?

Ecstatic experiences are often considered “abnormal”. If you remember Joan of Arc was accused of having demons by many.

There are many canonized saints who have had these trance like experiences.

The Children of Fatima had similar expereinces, where the knelt upon rocks and did not feel them, because they were in a state of ecstasy. Is this “normal” human expereince? No, it is what happens when people encounter and are swept up into the supernatural.

And if you don’t get the scriptural reference - then I would kindly suggest you devote more time to diligent study of Scripture and less time to study of Charismatism - another common failing of the Charismatic movement.

I think you are in error on this point. Those Catholics who become involved in the Charismatic Renewal spend vastly more time in Scripture than those who are not. They are often seized with a hunger for the Word of God and can’t put it down. This is not a phenomenon that is commonly found among those who frequent the pews in the parish on Sunday, which is the only time they hear the Word.

First of all - St. Paul could speak in languages he did not know - LANGUAGES.

He used many varieties of tongues, for praise, for prophesy, and for private devotion. There evidence that he spoke “the tongues of men and angels” is equal.

Second of all -
No. Those who have “received this gift” are much more willing to go forth and talk about how they “received this gift”… as evidenced by the rampant pollution of threads on here by extremely vocal Charismatics.

I find it sad that you consider the Gifts of the HS “rampant pollution”. I can 't help but think that this hurts Jesus in His Sacred Heart, to have His gifts disparaged in such a manner.

The giving of personal testimony is a long time failing of Catholics. Those who have been renewed by the Spirit are more likely to share that experience with others, which is the whole point of being made alive in the Spirit.

Statistically, you kids are in an extreme minority. On here - every conversation where this segue is even remotely relevent is eventually turned into discussions of “charismatic gifts” because some new or poorly catechized Catholic thinks you represent the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

Well, this is good, since the Charismatic experience is part of the Teachings of Holy Mother church.

You are right, there are a lot of poorly catechized Catholics, yourself apparently included.

It’s exactly the same behavior you see in the Baptist and Pentecostal charismatic movements… which eventually results in a “you haven’t been saved unless you speak in tongues” brand of foolishness.

No, sharing ones excitement and joy of being renewed in Spirit by supernatural acts of God is part of what it means to be Christian.

You correctly identify that it is an error and an abuse to purport that a person has not been sealed by the HS unless they speak in tongues.

I will point you to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm

Especially to the following passage, which speaks directly to you:
***They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous (12:3). The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended (14:22, 23, 26). The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious spirit (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God (15). ***

A good description not only of the abuse of the gift that was happening in Corinth, but is also perpetuated to day.

However, abuses of the gift do not nullify the gift.

That is like saying “since some people don’t live out the sacramental gift of their marriage, then all marriage is a hoax”.

 

[guanophore]

The Charismatic Catholic Renewal IS your personal version of the Catholic faith. It’s a movement started by the laity which did not exist prior to February 1967. Before then, there WAS NO “charismatic mass”.

You are guilty of the very thing you just advocated against.

That makes you a hypocrite.

Joe, you are in error on several points, but your statement makes it much more clear why you have so much animosity toward the charismata.

The Renewal was started by the HS, as a result of the prayers of the Holy Father.

However, the gifts of the Spirit have always been present in the Church. Many do not earnestly seek the HS, so are not availed of the gifts.

A “charismatic mass” is not a different kind of Mass. All of them I have attended (and there have been hundreds) follow the GIRM and the Novus Ordo. They have extra time for singing, praying, and sometimes healing. Most Charismatic Masses have a longer homily than is customary in the Novus Ordo, but the liturgy is the same.

There is nothing "separate’ or “schismatic” about it, which is why your namecalling of your brother as a “hypocrite” is inappropriate. Have you forgotten who is the “accuser of the brethren”? Whose agenda are you promoting when you bite and tear at your brother?

 

[guanophore]

If you consider sleeping, babbling, or hysterics to be gifts of the Holy Spirit… then you’re a charismatic.

This is a derogatory distortion, joe_not so cool. You are embarassing yourself when you do such things.

 

[kamaan]

A “charismatic mass” is not a different kind of Mass. All of them I have attended (and there have been hundreds) follow the GIRM and the Novus Ordo. They have extra time for singing, praying, and sometimes healing. Most Charismatic Masses have a longer homily than is customary in the Novus Ordo, but the liturgy is the same.

Please elaborate; who performs the “healing”?

ETA: Does this healing take place during the Mass? Or after?

 

[guanophore]

thanks

and btw stuff like this won’t chase me away i need a good solid catholic message board and this seems like one [sign]praise god[/sign]

Good for you tiger! You are right, you will learn a lot about your faith here. Take care around people like joe_notsocool as we are directed by the Apostle"

Rom.16
[17] I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

you have rightly identified that he is focused on creating dissentions and difficultites, and opposing the doctrine of the faith, which is most definitely in support of charismata. You will know them by their fruits. When a person tries so hard to discredit authentic spirituality, you know for sure the source is not to be trusted.

 

[agapewolf]

LOL. This is classic.

Name ONE SINGLE Catholic Saint who was a charismatic. Supply writings where they speak of babbling like pagans in a non-existent language, sleeping during Adoration, or laughing hysterically.

.

St. Theresa Avila in ecstasy.

Those at pentacost.

BTW, no one said laughing hysterically. You are using emotionally charged words that discredit you from making a rational position.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I changed my mind.

You do come across as a bit unstable…

  In my diocese there's ONE place where charismatics meet - they don't even have their own parish, and they're allowed mass once per month in a host parish.

Why would they want to have their own parish? They would never be able to reach persons like yourself who are ignorant, if they isolated themselves.

Besides, prayer meetings do not take the place of Diving Liturgy.

Head south one diocese, and there’s a healthy handful - of course, this is in an area right in the middle of the Bible belt… of course, they’re still limited to prayer groups and so far as I can tell there’s no charismatic mass in that entire diocese.

Mass is Mass, it does not need to be “charismatic”. Prayer groups are to supplement the spiritual life and development of people outside of Mass.

you represent an EXTREME minority within the church.

I don’t think any charismatics are trying to “represent”, so it is a moot point.

However, I join my prayer with that of the HOly Father, that the whole church might be renewed with the fire of the HS.

 

[guanophore]

Actually I thought the whole point of this thread was for you to belittle Charismatic Catholics because of your ignorance about the renewal movement and to somehow make Charismatics feel they are inferior to you.

You know, the more I read, the more I realize this is the case. What we are seeing here does not reflect the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[kamaan]

Guanophore, I am going to assume that either you didn’t see my question or that you posted a reply and I missed it. Can you please answer me or direct me to your reply? Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

My ignorance? I’m still waiting on an answer to this post.

Please enlighten me as to how sleeping, or hysterics serve the needs of the community.

Yes, the post that is linked above does demonstrate your ignorance, and perhaps your stubborness. You are unwilling to set your prejudices and bigotries aside to explore the possiblity that there might be an aspect of authentic Catholic experience that you do not share.

You clearly have misunderstood the state of resting or “slain” in the Spirit for “sleeping”, and have classified all ecstatic experiences as “hysterics”. Following this line of reasoning, one would have to say the stigmata experienced by many of the saints is psychosomatic hystrionics.