Charismatic Catholics

[joe_cool]

Closing statement:

Not once. Not even once, has anybody been able to refute me with anything other than anecdotal references to feelings.

Not once. Not even once, has anybody refuted the Scriptural case that I built. All that was provided was a link to a website that provided passages outside of both textual and historical context. Any fool should recognize this common trick that Protestants love so much.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6983643&postcount=22

Not once. Not even once, has anybody refuted the case I built that Charismatics are an EXTREME minority.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6986903&postcount=52

Not once. Not even once, has anybody cited evidence for a Catholic saint who babbled, or laughed for no reason like a fool.

Any time inconvenient evidence, or common sense are cited - they are ignored.

By now I hope that anyone reading has noticed all of the tell-tale signs of a cult mentality.

I talk about facts - they talk about feelings.

You can object to my tone, or my approach - certainly I could have gone about making my point in a much better way…

My point: The very existence of the CCR serves as evidence that the Church yearns for stronger priests and better catechesis.

With that… my participation in this thread… is over.

 

[guanophore]

I actually have it straight from the horse’s mouth:

sleeping
laughing
babbling like a buffoon

I would like to know how ANY of these benefit the community.

I am sorry, joe_notsocool, but I am afraid this knowledge is beyond your purview. For a person to understand how sleeping and and laughing is beneficial, one would have to value such activities as an authentic part of the human experience.

As for the gift of tongues, as long as you characterize the gifts of the HS as “babbling like a buffoon”, then your heart is not right with God, and as Peter said to Simon when he wanted information, “you have no part in this matter”.

You will also not succeed in disuading those of us who have a closer and more productive walk with God as a result of this “movement”.

 

[kamaan]

Now, guanophore, can you please answer my question(s)? Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

LOL. This is classic.

“Become a Charismatic, and then you’ll get answers”

Answers have been given. I think it would be more accurate to say that you will get “experiential” answers.

It is much like the contempletive Benedictine community I frequent near here. One can best get a taste of contemplative life by being in the community, joining in their prayerful active life, and liturgical prayer. One can read about it, and talk to people about it, but unless one actually participates, then one will never gain experiential knowledge.

This is just yet another example of the Charismatic recruitment mentality.  "I could explain it to you, but you'll just have to experience it for yourself"

And that is a problem because?

Do you think it is a problem to recruit people into a strong and active Spirit filled life?

I wish that every nominal Catholic in the pew could be so recruited!

Translation:

I can’t explain it - there is NO legitimate basis for these practices other than how they make me feel good… and I refuse to justify my oxytocin addiction.

There is nothing wrong with feeling good about one’s relationship with God.

Scripture is clear that we are to fan the flame within us, and stir up the gift of the HS, and earnestly seek the best gifts. The goal, however, is not to feel good, but to serve God with the whole heart, mind, soul and strength.

This is the crux of my objection with you people, right here:  it's about whipping yourself into a frenzy so you can get a neurochemical high.

Apparently you don’t realize that neurochemical highs can be obtained in many ways, some of them supernatural. They do not require whipping oneself into a frenzy, either.

Name ONE SINGLE Catholic Saint who was a charismatic.

I am in the process of writing a book about this as we speak!

Supply writings where they speak of babbling like pagans in a non-existent language, sleeping during Adoration, or laughing hysterically.

Well, sorry, since these are mischaracterizations, it will not happen.

If your "movement" is legitimate, and "rooted in the traditional Church", this should not be a problem.

No, it is a bit of a challenge, since such experiences historically have been described diffferently. Never with the irreverent tone that you apply, however.

But, I suspect, since you will not receive the instruction of the Church or the HOly Fathers, the experiences of the saints will not be pursuasive either.

 

[kamaan]

Guanophore, do you have me on “ignore” or something? I just want a simple answer!

 

[guanophore]

That’s not how I describe it - it’s how St. Matthew described it.

No, joe_notsocool, you are in error again, my dear misguided brother.

The Gospel of Matthew predates the outpouring of the HS, as it covers the period of time prior to Pentecost. The gift of tongues was not yet active in the Church, which was as yet unformed by Christ. The “babbling of Pagans” referred to here refers to a pre-Pentecost form of prayer.

 

[kamaan]

Sigh



An exercise in futility, right here…

 

[guanophore]

Please elaborate; who performs the “healing”?

ETA: Does this healing take place during the Mass? Or after?

In a properly ordered liturgy, an annointing with oil may be performed by the priest after the Liturgy is closed. Those who do not wish to receive the sacrament are free to leave.

All healing comes from God, and there is no greater healing than His Body and Blood. However, some people benefit from extra individual prayer or counsel, which can be provided by prayer teams after Mass. Those who desire this are invited to stay and are ministered to individually by prayer teams. These teams minister under the direction of the Bishop, or his representative.

 

[FAB]

Please elaborate; who performs the “healing”?

ETA: Does this healing take place during the Mass? Or after?

There are those who have the gift of healing and it comes from the holy Spirit.
As far whom ay one who has recieved this particualr gift. Remeber they are the vessel whom through the Holy Spirt works,

The healing is done after the mass in most cases with those with the gift praying over those seeking healing.

Peace,
FAB

 

[guanophore]

Closing statement:

Not once. Not even once, has anybody been able to refute me with anything other than anecdotal references to feelings.

There is much more to authentic spiritual renewal than “feelings”, though they are also a part of the human experience. Why are you so afraid of yours? What do you expect to feel, if you were to let yourself?

If you will not allow your bigotry to be corrected by the Holy Fathers and the Catechism, what other refutation is there?

Not once.  Not even once, has anybody refuted the Scriptural case that I built.

Who would want to do so? It is a house of cards, a strawman. If you wish to live in it, that is your affair.

All that was provided was a link to a website that provided passages outside of both textual and historical context. Any fool should recognize this common trick that Protestants love so much.

It seems like it ought to have worked in your case, because you are thinking and representing yourself like many Protestants do.

Not once.  Not even once, has anybody refuted the case I built that Charismatics are an EXTREME minority.

I think that none of us are really concerned about the matter, except yourself. Why would it matter? I certianly have no interest in what percentage of the parishes are charismatic.

You seem to be using this as a method of devaluing and abrogating the charismatic expeirence, but it is only another strawman. The radical poverty of St. Francis was an extreme minority too (and still is). That does not make it lack authenticity.

Not once.  Not even once, has anybody cited evidence for a Catholic saint who babbled, or laughed for no reason like a fool.

No. And no one would. This is not saintly behavior, but the product of your twisted imagination. You seem to enjoy disparaging ecstatic experiences.

Any time inconvenient evidence, or common sense are cited - they are ignored.

Unfortunately, your hostile and derogatory attitude has completely weakened your position.

By now I hope that anyone reading has noticed all of the tell-tale signs of a cult mentality.

You know, I hope this is true. It seems very clear to me by reading this thread that bigotry is not limited to the Klu Klux Klan!

I talk about facts - they talk about feelings.

You are commended to your “facts” joe_notsocool. As Jesus said, when the eye is sound, the whole body is full of light. If one’s perceptions are skewed, then one will live in darkness.

You can object to my tone, or my approach - certainly I could have gone about making my point in a much better way...

I would strongly urge and invite all those reading this thread to pray for you with regard to this. Your attitude is not only damaging to yourself, but to the servants of God that you unjustly accuse.

My point: The very existence of the CCR serves as evidence that the Church yearns for stronger priests and better catechesis.

Yes, I agree. I have known many invovled in the Renewal that are now discerning priesthood, religious life, and involved in RCIA in their parishes. May the Spirit that draws all of us into unrestrained service continue to engender these ministries within the Body. Let us pray that He will send harvesters into the field!

 

[Joe_5859]

With that… my participation in this thread… is over.

But you never even commented on the statements of JPII and Benedict XVI about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that I linked to above. Is that not factual enough?

 

[catholictiger]

im reading the spirit of the liturgy and i stumbled upon thsi statement doens’t have to do with the gifts i was talking about well sorta does but this is one totatlly awsome qoute got to love the pope

Church music comes into being as a “charism”, a gift of the Spirit. It is the truth glossolalia, the new tongue that comes from the holy spirit.

page 140 of spirit of the liturgy by pope Benedict XVI listed as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[PatriceA]

im reading the spirit of the liturgy and i stumbled upon thsi statement doens’t have to do with the gifts i was talking about well sorta does but this is one totatlly awsome qoute got to love the pope

Joe cool though would describe that as an “acendotal reference” and we’re all suppose to ignore such quotes.

But I think its pretty cool personally.

 

[joe_cool]

Joe cool though would describe that as an “acendotal reference” and we’re all suppose to ignore such quotes.

But I think its pretty cool personally.

Not nice to make false statements.

Funny thing is - that statement supports my cause, and not yours. Notice he didn’t say that babbling like a buffoon is glossolalia - and he didn’t refer to a “personal prayer language” or any other such foolishness.

He said that church music is glossolalia - and that is entirely true.

 

[PatriceA]

QUOTE=joe_cool;6988830]Not nice to make false statements.

Funny thing is - that statement supports my cause, and not yours. Notice he didn’t say that babbling like a buffoon is glossolalia - and he didn’t refer to a “personal prayer language” or any other such foolishness.

He said that church music is glossolalia - and that is entirely true.

Actually its not a false statement, you referred to the links provided in this thread as all being “acendotal references” several posts back. I’m only using your own words, so I would presume you feel that way about any quote or writings about anything to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic renewal.

 

[joe_cool]

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[joe_cool]

joe_cool;6988830:

Not nice to make false statements.

Funny thing is - that statement supports my cause, and not yours. Notice he didn’t say that babbling like a buffoon is glossolalia - and he didn’t refer to a “personal prayer language” or any other such foolishness.

He said that church music is glossolalia - and that is entirely true.

Actually its not a false statement, you referred to the links provided in this thread as all being “acendotal references” several posts back. I’m only using your own words, so I would presume you feel that way about any quote or writings about anything to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic renewal.

Your complete inability to read is astounding.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[guanophore]

Funny thing is - that statement supports my cause, and not yours.

No, joe_notsocool. The statements of the Holy Fathers all support the authenticity of the Charismatic movement. This is diametrically oppposed to your bigoted point of view, which denies both the validity of their teachings, and that of the catechism.

Notice he didn’t say that babbling like a buffoon is glossolalia - and he didn’t refer to a “personal prayer language” or any other such foolishness.

Of course not! 'babbling like a buffoon" is your own construct, and comes from the mind of a person who disdains the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

glossolalia is a supernatural phenomenon that is experienced when a person yields his being to the working of the HS, and the HS prays through the person. It is called “personal prayer” because the Apostles specifically encouraged us all to use it, but that it should not be used in the meeting without an interpreter.

1Cor.14
[1] Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts…

[2] For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. …

[5] Now I want you all to speak in tongues

[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

He said that church music is glossolalia - and that is entirely true.

The gathering together of a group who are all praying in tongues is a most beautiful chorus.

 

[Joe_5859]

Welcome back to the thread, joe_cool! You just couldn’t stay away, could you?

Hey, Joe, you’re in Ohio, right? Steubenville can’t be that far away. You could go and get some first-hand experience!

 

[catholictiger]

Your complete inability to read is astounding.

Welcome to my ignore list.

did you read what joe 5859 posted back on page 3 2 things by pope benidict XVI and a few things by pope john paul II, he doesn’t condemn the charismatic renewal