Charismatic Evangelical Church transforming christianity

[valient_Lucy]

We’re already seeing this in the evangelical movement in the United States. If you’d like to see how this is manifesting itself in one very prominent church led by a very prominent pastor, visit the webpage of Saddleback Community Church, particularly this page about worship venues.

Yeah, that’s a real tragedy.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Yeah, that’s a real tragedy.

Yes, terribly sad when a church grows to 20,000 people, mostly through adult baptisms. Horrible.

My idea of a perfect venue for a church meeting would be a beautiful open field in the summer and, in winter, a cave. Just like…

 

[JesusforMadrid]

It was my former church that sent missionaries to Sicily, and even though they do engage in missions work in a variety of non-Christian countries, particularly in Africa, the Indian subcontinent and southeast Asia, they send far, far more to Catholic countries like Italy and those of Latin America. Clearly, they don’t consider such countries to be legitimately Christian.

Are you aware of how few “practicing Catholics” there are in Italy?

 

[djrakowski]

Yes, terribly sad when a church grows to 20,000 people, mostly through adult baptisms. Horrible.

I don’t measure truth by numbers. I’ve read a quote attributed to Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, that goes something like this: “God calls us to be faithful, not successful.” I used to attend a church very similar to Saddleback, and the leadership of that church would openly tell you that a significant percentage of that large number aren’t seriously committed Christians. They got them in the door by offering them what they want (an entertaining, guilt-free worship experience with ‘relevant’ preaching that’s light on scripture), and then many of them leave for other churches (including Catholicism) because there’s precious little opportunity for growth in discipleship there.

My idea of a perfect venue for a church meeting would be a beautiful open field in the summer and, in winter, a cave. Just like…

Just like what? And, did you ask what God wants of you in worship, or just how you prefer it to be?

Are you aware of how few “practicing Catholics” there are in Italy?

By what measure? In whose judgment? And, is that a good reason to actively seek to convert those who belong to a legitimately Christian church?

 

[djrakowski]

JesusforMadrid, if I read you correctly (and I apologize in advance if I haven’t), you believe it to be the fault of the Catholic Church that there are so many supposed ‘nominal’ or non-practicing Catholics. Am I right, and if so, what proof do you offer?

 

[Caesar]

Poor souls of evangelicals

 

[JesusforMadrid]

JesusforMadrid, if I read you correctly (and I apologize in advance if I haven’t), you believe it to be the fault of the Catholic Church that there are so many supposed ‘nominal’ or non-practicing Catholics. Am I right, and if so, what proof do you offer?

I wouldn’t say this as such. I would say that it is the fault of Catholics that Catholics are non-practicing.

 

[djrakowski]

I wouldn’t say this as such. I would say that it is the fault of Catholics that Catholics are non-practicing.

Ah… I’m glad to hear that. Still, consumer-oriented churches that are light on discipleship are hardly a replacement for even the most lukewarm of Catholic parishes and the Eucharist.

It is dishonest to pull people away form Catholic churches rather than show them how to become better disciples as Catholics. The hidden implication is that they can’t do so as Catholics. In other words, I prefer the Billy Graham approach. I’ve heard that he would refer folks at his crusades to Catholic churches if that was their background. Why do these growing evangelical churches feel the need to do otherwise, if not to imply that the Catholic church isn’t validly Christian?

 

[Eden]

If the fruits of the Evangelical movement are to go to Catholic forums and post a thread about the growth of Evangelicalism in Latin America with the sarcastic remark that Catholics must all be depressed, then I say the fruit is rotten. It is not a mature faith that gloats. Watch out with your hubris, JesusforMadrid.

 

[djrakowski]

If the fruits of the Evangelical movement are to go to Catholic forums and post a thread about the growth of Evangelicalism in Latin America with the sarcastic remark that Catholics must all be depressed, then I say the fruit is rotten. It is not a mature faith that gloats. Watch out with your hubris, JesusforMadrid.

Agreed, and I would add, what about the depth of the faith of the churches pulling people out of Catholicism. Is it all style, or is there also substance? In other words, is it giving them what they want, or what they need?

A large evangelical church in our area started out by going door-to-door, asking people what they wanted church to look like. Isn’t it interesting that they didn’t ask God what he wants church to look like?

 

[Caesar]

If the fruits of the Evangelical movement are to go to Catholic forums and post a thread about the growth of Evangelicalism in Latin America with the sarcastic remark that Catholics must all be depressed, then I say the fruit is rotten. It is not a mature faith that gloats. Watch out with your hubris, JesusforMadrid.

It is rotten fruit. All fruit of Satan is rotten.

 

[McKevin]

Amen!
Give me Truth based Christianity over market-based Christianity any day.

MHO:

Simple Truth:

Satan is the great deceiver and one of his biggest tricks is to convince others that they are working for God if they work against the Catholic Church. If JFM was sincerely working for Christ then he would not be in competition with the Church that Christ founded.

Mary, mother of God, pray for us!

<>
McKevin

 

[MariaG]

It is dishonest to pull people away form Catholic churches rather than show them how to become better disciples as Catholics. The hidden implication is that they can’t do so as Catholics. In other words, I prefer the Billy Graham approach. I’ve heard that he would refer folks at his crusades to Catholic churches if that was their background. Why do these growing evangelical churches feel the need to do otherwise, if not to imply that the Catholic church isn’t validly Christian?

That is exactly it. If these evangelical Churches were honestly concerned about the souls of these “lukewarm” Christians, they would not be pulling them out of the Catholic church, they would be trying to light a fire in them to take back to their church.

The problem is that these Evangelical Churches do not believe Catholics are actually Christians.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

MHO:

Simple Truth:

Satan is the great deceiver and one of his biggest tricks is to convince others that they are working for God if they work against the Catholic Church. If JFM was sincerely working for Christ then he would not be in competition with the Church that Christ founded.

Mary, mother of God, pray for us!

<>
McKevin

As far as I am concerned, people need to fall in love with Jesus Christ. As some of your own Catholic theologians such as Ralph Martin and Raniero Cantalamessa have noted, many nominal Catholics have fallen in love with Christ by joining the Evangelical church. And, they conclude, that is a good thing. I echo their statements.

And likewise, for all you ex-Evangelicals out there, if you have fallen in love with Christ by joining the Roman Catholic church, I think that is a good thing. Amen?

I agree with the approach used by Billy Graham. There is, however, little I can do to “light the fire” of faith of Roman Catholics in my country, although I am trying. I can better lead people to Christ through the means I have available, which is my evangelical church.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

If the fruits of the Evangelical movement are to go to Catholic forums and post a thread about the growth of Evangelicalism in Latin America with the sarcastic remark that Catholics must all be depressed, then I say the fruit is rotten. It is not a mature faith that gloats. Watch out with your hubris, JesusforMadrid.

Sorry you felt that way. Certainly wasn’t my intention, although being provocative is always fun.

As a resident of Spain, a country with hundreds of years of persecution of Protestants up until really the 1970s, I know a bit about religious “hubris”.

 

[Abira]

Respectfully, are you using the “Catholic Church” and the “Roman Church” interchangably? This is confusing as well as rude.

We are the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church there is also a Roman Rite of which is only ONE of the rites that are in communion with the Pope. Only when trying to differentiate between rites withing the Catholic Church, has the Catholic Church ever self-identified as the Roman Church.

We are the Catholic Church and identify ourselves as such in all official documents of the Church except in the aforementioned exceptions. Since your usage is not one of those exceptions, it would be polite to refer to a church by the name that she has always laid claim to.

Respectfully,
Maria

Hiya Maria (or anyone else who can help me out )

I don’t fully understand this… I have often confused the terms Catholic, catholic (in the protestant sense) Roman Catholic and Roman Church…

What do Catholics understand these termsto be in their simplest sense… and is it truly offensive when someone uses the wrong one?

Take care, S x

also, would we be here talking about these issues…not just in this thread but on a wider stage… without the different denominations causing debate. In a way I feel that differences between churches forces people to be more stable in their facts and own belief system. If everyone in the world belonged to one ideology, I think people would get ‘lazy’ for want of a better word anyways.

 

[djrakowski]

As far as I am concerned, people need to fall in love with Jesus Christ. As some of your own Catholic theologians such as Ralph Martin and Raniero Cantalamessa have noted, many nominal Catholics have fallen in love with Christ by joining the Evangelical church. And, they conclude, that is a good thing. I echo their statements.

True - falling in love with Jesus Christ is indeed important. But is that it? Don’t people also need to be discipled in the truth? Consumerist religion emphasizes personal choice and comfort at the expense of truth, and that’s quite unacceptable, and moreso, not the way Jesus intended his Church to function.

You seem awfully hung up on Fr. Cantalamessa and Ralph Martin. Why is that? They’re entitled to their opinions, and many, if not most, of the former evangelicals who post here (I believe I can at least speak for myself and MariaG) quite strongly disagree with both of these fine Catholic gentlemen.

And likewise, for all you ex-Evangelicals out there, if you have fallen in love with Christ by joining the Roman Catholic church, I think that is a good thing. Amen?

Not quite accurate. I fell in love with Jesus Christ as an evangelical, and fell in love with truth and became Catholic. And I’ve spoken to enoughy converts who feel exactly the same.

I agree with the approach used by Billy Graham. There is, however, little I can do to “light the fire” of faith of Roman Catholics in my country, although I am trying. I can better lead people to Christ through the means I have available, which is my evangelical church.

But you see, if Catholicism is even legitimate (and you seem to believe so), then there’s no reason to pull them out into your belief system. Deciding to be an on-fire Catholic is a personal decision that doesn’t need interference from evangelicals. Again, it speaks of unbounded arrogance to think that you can give them something better, as if they’re not capable of being authentic Christians in their own churches. Billy Graham didn’t sheep-steal, so you’re not exactly telling the truth that you’re using his approach.

 

[djrakowski]

also, would we be here talking about these issues…not just in this thread but on a wider stage… without the different denominations causing debate. In a way I feel that differences between churches forces people to be more stable in their facts and own belief system. If everyone in the world belonged to one ideology, I think people would get ‘lazy’ for want of a better word anyways.

I take this to mean that you don’t care that only one of each of these conflicting ideologies can be true? No, competition is not good when it emphasizes felt needs and personal choice instead of truth.

 

[Abira]

I take this to mean that you don’t care that only one of each of these conflicting ideologies can be true? No, competition is not good when it emphasizes felt needs and personal choice instead of truth.

being brought up protestant, I don’t feel this in the same way that you do. I believe that any situation which calls people to take a step back and question, reinforce and state their truth is beneficial to the person.

By this I don’t just mean (take you and me in this example)

You’re restating your belief to me, and I am benefitting from your point of view… but I also think that it is making you stronger in your own faith because you are having to restate it to yourself in telling me.

S x

 

[valient_Lucy]

Yes, terribly sad when a church grows to 20,000 people, mostly through adult baptisms. Horrible.

My idea of a perfect venue for a church meeting would be a beautiful open field in the summer and, in winter, a cave. Just like…

It’s a terrible tragedy that “worship styles” cause schism in a church. It’s a tragedy that people are so worried about what they can “get out” of worship rather than what they can offer to God in the act of worship. It’s a tragedy that people cannot make a sacrifice by listening to music they don’t like rather than split up a church simply over style of music.

THAT’S the tragedy here.