charismatic gifts

[DebChris]

Shame on me for not reading this whole thread. Others have undoubtedly pointed out that the Catholic Church has a vigorous Charismatic movement.

You might ask your Pentecostal friend why Pentecostals do not give significant attention to the Christ-given teachings on the Eucharist, Confession, and Holy Orders.

Since Pentecostal denominations lack the roots of Tradition, you could invite them to Mass, Charismatic if available.

Since charisms are “graces of the Holy Spirit,” maybe someday there will be no difference between a Charismatic Mass and “standard vanilla.”

 

[mercygate]

Since Pentecostal denominations lack the roots of Tradition, you could invite them to Mass, Charismatic if available.

Since charisms are “graces of the Holy Spirit,” maybe someday there will be no difference between a Charismatic Mass and “standard vanilla.”

Good grief! I hope there will be a difference. I prefer vanilla to all that racket. And I prefer Latin to vanilla.

Nevertheless, the Charismatic gifts are definitely part of the treasury of the Church and they are given to us for our edification and for the propagation of the Gospel.

The Mass itself is a charismatic gift because the Holy Spirit effects the Sacrament. The whole Catholic mystical tradition is a charismatic proposition.

 

[DebChris]

Good grief! I hope there will be a difference. I prefer vanilla to all that racket. And I prefer Latin to vanilla.

Nevertheless, the Charismatic gifts are definitely part of the treasury of the Church and they are given to us for our edification and for the propagation of the Gospel.

The Mass itself is a charismatic gift because the Holy Spirit effects the Sacrament. The whole Catholic mystical tradition is a charismatic proposition.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does list the various ways that we know the Holy Spirit (Post 116). The gifts do not always have to be manifested vocally for the Holy Spirit to work.
As much as I love to sing, especially as my natural voice is wretched, I recognize the importance of silent listening—in front of the Blessed Sacrament, for example.
Because of Tradition and culture, the way a Catholic might express his/her gifts differs from others (as seen on TV).

The “vanilla” comment was more in response to earlier posts citing liturgical abuses that I have never witnessed. I did not mean to cause a defensive reaction. I like chocolate–Rocky Road.

 

[po18guy]

There seem to be two basic concepts presented here: First is the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the second is the appropriateness of using the gifts during mass. While both are clearly gifts from God, it would appear that their use should be separate. Combining the two can lead to abuses, and may detract from and obscure what is occurring at the sacrifice.

It is, after all, a sacrifice. Mass is something of an emotional roller coaster, as we recall Christ’s passion, death and resurrection. Not all is joyous, for we can celebrate Christ’s suffering only in the sense that by enduring it, he paid the cost of our sin. If the reverence due our Lord is diluted, it leads away from the concept of the mass as the eternal sacrifice.

We have one Catholic church because uncompromising and sometimes unpopular Popes have fought against tremendous pressure over the milennia to preserve the faith-some to greater degrees than others. I hope and pray that, 2,000 years frm now, we would still recognize the mass.

The charisms, I would think, have their best use in the building up of the church outside of mass, not during the sacrifice. The problem is that, in our culture, we have come to the point where mass is the only Christian function many of us participate in. Since evangelization seems to have become of secondary importance (sadly so) in the faith, the tendency has been to join functions.

They are best kept separate, as separate gifts and blessings-each with a blesseed purpose.

 

[mercygate]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does list the various ways that we know the Holy Spirit. The gifts do not always have to be manifested vocally in order for the Holy Spirit to work.
As much as I love to sing, especially as my natural voice is wretched, I recognize the importance of silent listening—in front of the Blessed Sacrament, for example.
Because of Tradition and culture, the way a Catholic might express his/her gifts differs from others (as seen on TV).

The “vanilla” comment was more in response to earlier posts citing liturgical abuses that I have never witnessed. I did not mean to cause a defensive reaction.

I have never been to a charismatic Mass, and I did not mean to imply that ‘racket’ – by which I meant praise music – is a liturgical abuse. I just can’t stand that stuff: personal point.

I am a believer in all of the extraordinary charismatic gifts – healing, prophesy, even tounge-speaking in accord with Scriptural norms. I know solid Catholics (one of them a Priest) who claim to have witnessed every miracle of the New Testament except walking on water – including the multiplication of food, exorcisms, deliverances, and raising people from the dead.

 

[DebChris]

There seem to be two basic concepts presented here: First is the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the second is the appropriateness of using the gifts during mass. While both are clearly gifts from God, it would appear that their use should be separate. Combining the two can lead to abuses, and may detract from and obscure what is occurring at the sacrifice.

It is, after all, a sacrifice. Mass is something of an emotional roller coaster, as we recall Christ’s passion, death and resurrection. Not all is joyous, for we can celebrate Christ’s suffering only in the sense that by enduring it, he paid the cost of our sin. If the reverence due our Lord is diluted, it leads away from the concept of the mass as the eternal sacrifice.

We have one Catholic church because uncompromising and sometimes unpopular Popes have fought against tremendous pressure over the milennia to preserve the faith-some to greater degrees than others. I hope and pray that, 2,000 years frm now, we would still recognize the mass.

The charisms, I would think, have their best use in the building up of the church outside of mass, not during the sacrifice. The problem is that, in our culture, we have come to the point where mass is the only Christian function many of us participate in. Since evangelization seems to have become of secondary importance (sadly so) in the faith, the tendency has been to join functions.

They are best kept separate, as separate gifts and blessings-each with a blesseed purpose.

The Mass is a eucharistic celebration. Nobody on this post, from what I see, has minimized the Sacrifice of Calvary.
Whether the gifts are manifested during Mass or outside Mass, it must be the Holy Spirit who leads.
Eucharist means thanksgiving and we give thanks that death has been conquered. We are a Resurrection people and as such have much cause to celebrate. See post #107 and #116.

 

[DebChris]

As a person who enjoys charismatic masses, I agree with you that it is improper to deviate from the GIRM, or to disobey the Pope or the Bishops in any way. I have never been to a Mass of the kind you describe, but I have only been attending for 27 years, so maybe I have yet to do so. I hope not! The main difference I see at a charismatic Mass is that there is a more robust participation from the pews, and there is more time for adoration during the consecration. Most of the healing Masses I have attended are dismissed and annointing of the sick, laying on of hands and individual prayer happens immediately afterward. As to why people go, I don’t think it is entertainment, but I do think people crave an authentic experience that involves the whole person, body soul and spirit.

I found I needed to take a step back and maybe rephrase the original questions. Why are not more Catholics aware of the gifts that we already possess? What is keeping us from opening these gifts? Is it because we do not see them everyday as a normal part of our worship service?
For Catholics, of course, the normal worship service is the Mass, a time of Eucharistic celebration. It is important, as noted by guanaphor, not to equate liturgical abuses with the workings of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the giver of the gifts and these gifts are manifested in various ways not always visible to others. The gifts come in the zeal of the priest’s preaching or the proclamation of the Word by the lector.
Jesus told his followers, “you will do the works I do.” He did not speak of his works as miracles so is it not reasonable to expect things like healing to occur as a normal part of our lives in the Spirit? Is the only place we want these gifts manifested in the weekly prayer groups that not everybody attends? Do we want to hide our light under a basket? Should the healings be “extraordinary” or an ordinary part of the everyday life of Christians. I am sure that guanaphore and others may be better equiped to say what I am trying to say.
When I suggested inviting Pentecostal friends to a Charismatic Mass, it was not merely for the praise and worshop with which Charismatics are associated–the ‘racket’ as Mercygate put it. My purpose for the invitation was to let our denominational Pentecostal friends know that the gifts are alive within the Catholic Church and that they can find a home here.

 

[po18guy]

I found I needed to take a step back and maybe rephrase the original questions. Why are not more Catholics aware of the gifts that we already possess? What is keeping us from opening these gifts? Is it because we do not see them everyday as a normal part of our worship service?
For Catholics, of course, the normal worship service is the Mass, a time of Eucharistic celebration. It is important, as noted by guanaphor, not to equate liturgical abuses with the workings of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the giver of the gifts and these gifts are manifested in various ways not always visible to others. The gifts come in the zeal of the priest’s preaching or the proclamation of the Word by the lector.
Jesus told his followers, “you will do the works I do.” He did not speak of his works as miracles so is it not reasonable to expect things like healing to occur as a normal part of our lives in the Spirit? Is the only place we want these gifts manifested in the weekly prayer groups that not everybody attends? Do we want to hide our light under a basket? Should the healings be “extraordinary” or an ordinary part of the everyday life of Christians. I am sure that guanaphore and others may be better equiped to say what I am trying to say.
When I suggested inviting Pentecostal friends to a Charismatic Mass, it was not merely for the praise and worshop with which Charismatics are associated–the ‘racket’ as Mercygate put it. My purpose for the invitation was to let our denominational Pentecostal friends know that the gifts are alive within the Catholic Church and that they can find a home here.

Well said.

 

[grandfather]

I found I needed to take a step back and maybe rephrase the original questions. Why are not more Catholics aware of the gifts that we already possess? What is keeping us from opening these gifts? Is it because we do not see them everyday as a normal part of our worship service?
For Catholics, of course, the normal worship service is the Mass, a time of Eucharistic celebration. It is important, as noted by guanaphor, not to equate liturgical abuses with the workings of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the giver of the gifts and these gifts are manifested in various ways not always visible to others. The gifts come in the zeal of the priest’s preaching or the proclamation of the Word by the lector.
Jesus told his followers, “you will do the works I do.” He did not speak of his works as miracles so is it not reasonable to expect things like healing to occur as a normal part of our lives in the Spirit? Is the only place we want these gifts manifested in the weekly prayer groups that not everybody attends? Do we want to hide our light under a basket? Should the healings be “extraordinary” or an ordinary part of the everyday life of Christians. I am sure that guanaphore and others may be better equiped to say what I am trying to say.
When I suggested inviting Pentecostal friends to a Charismatic Mass, it was not merely for the praise and worshop with which Charismatics are associated–the ‘racket’ as Mercygate put it. My purpose for the invitation was to let our denominational Pentecostal friends know that the gifts are alive within the Catholic Church and that they can find a home here.

 

[guanophore]

Nevertheless, the Charismatic gifts are definitely part of the treasury of the Church and they are given to us for our edification and for the propagation of the Gospel.

The Mass itself is a charismatic gift because the Holy Spirit effects the Sacrament. The whole Catholic mystical tradition is a charismatic proposition.

Amen to that!

 

[guanophore]

I found I needed to take a step back and maybe rephrase the original questions. Why are not more Catholics aware of the gifts that we already possess?

I think this is simply a lack of catechesis.

What is keeping us from opening these gifts?

Ignorance and fear

Is it because we do not see them everyday as a normal part of our worship service?

Perhaps, in part. The way our liturgy has evolved is very specific and ritualized. The practice of the gifts, on the other hand, is very spontaneous and often unexpected. They manifest frequently in worship gatherings outside of the Mass.

Jesus told his followers, “you will do the works I do.” He did not speak of his works as miracles so is it not reasonable to expect things like healing to occur as a normal part of our lives in the Spirit? Is the only place we want these gifts manifested in the weekly prayer groups that not everybody attends? Do we want to hide our light under a basket? Should the healings be “extraordinary” or an ordinary part of the everyday life of Christians. I am sure that guanaphore and others may be better equiped to say what I am trying to say.

I think not! I mean, you have stated plainly that these phenomena are part of the normal Christian life, and should not seem extraordinary at all.

When I suggested inviting Pentecostal friends to a Charismatic Mass, it was not merely for the praise and worshop with which Charismatics are associated–the ‘racket’ as Mercygate put it. My purpose for the invitation was to let our denominational Pentecostal friends know that the gifts are alive within the Catholic Church and that they can find a home here.

I am amazed at how many Pentecostals (including myself) are finding their way home. they are sincere about their faith, and once they start studying church history, it’s all downhill from there!

 

[po18guy]

Perhaps, in part. The way our liturgy has evolved is very specific and ritualized. The practice of the gifts, on the other hand, is very spontaneous and often unexpected. They manifest frequently in worship gatherings outside of the Mass.

I am amazed at how many Pentecostals (including myself) are finding their way home. they are sincere about their faith, and once they start studying church history, it’s all downhill from there!

AMEN! God clearly intends for us to use our gifts. The problem is that we sometimes think we must use them at mass, which is a sacrifice and the Lord’s supper. Certainly we can find other venues more appropriate for them - prayer meetings, small faith groups, all types of communal activities, etc.

Some gifts will be manifested at mass because they come from the Spirit, but I think reverence and obedience is best, to preserve the faith against pressure for change.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[DebChris]

I do not think that anybody on this thread has suggested forcing changes into the liturgy. What I have seen is a love of the Eucharist as “the source and summit of the Christian life.” The Eucharist, the sacrament of our salvation, means first of all thanksgiving [CCC1359-1360]. Within the structure of the Mass there is room for receipt of Sacraments such as Matrimony and blessings such as that given for throats on the Feast of St. Blaise (even in the Tridentine Mass). There is room for cultural expression that is neither contrived nor choreographed.

Charismatic Masses are not all that common. It has been over a year since I last attended a Charismatic Healing Mass. Before that, it was the Mass at the FIRE rally concelebrated by two bishops. Many parish priests were available for confession, the first time that many were even known to be Charismatic.

CCC1368.“In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ, who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.”
Were Charismatic Masses more commonplace, there would be less difference between Chocolate and Vanilla (referring to earlier posts by Grandfather). What we have would be rippled, the chocolate merely adding flavor but not distracting from the vanilla. While not as dramatic as glossalia, charisms are expressed in the liturgy through the preaching, the proclamation of the Word, and the participation of the laity.

“CCC1558. We must consider the Eucharist as
–Thanksgiving and praise to the Father.
–The sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body.
–The presence of Christ by the power of his word and his Spirit.”

“CCC1361. The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of praise by which the Church sings the glory of God in the name of all creation:
The sacrifice of praise [regardless of language] is possible only through Christ: he unites the faithful to his person, to his praise, to his intercession, so that the sacrifice of praise to the Father is offered through Christ and with him, to be accepted in him.”

 

[grandfather]

I do not think that anybody on this thread has suggested forcing changes into the liturgy.

We have read questions about why there are not more gifts given or experienced at Mass, as if it were a problem, how to get more gifts in general.

This past week it was in the press that Mother Teresa spent most of her life experiencing a dark night, a prolonged dry spell, full of doubt, with no consolation from God. This great saint of out day persevered in faith feeling abandoned by God. Still, every single day of her life was an example to all the world of fidelity and love of her Savior. She had a will of steel and everyone who saw her could see Jesus in her. She attracted thousands of vocations to her order.

Maybe a few charismatic masses and prayer meetings would have pepped her up a little. She could have gotten some badly needed gifts, tongues, healing, prophecy, etc. Maybe some people could have laid hands on her and prayed in their prayer language and fixed her up. She might have been slain in the spirit and snapped out of her dry spell.

 

[po18guy]

DebChris;2665019:

I do not think that anybody on this thread has suggested forcing changes into the liturgy.

We have read questions about why there are not more gifts given or experienced at Mass, as if it were a problem, how to get more gifts in general.

This past week it was in the press that Mother Teresa spent most of her life experiencing a dark night, a prolonged dry spell, full of doubt, with no consolation from God. This great saint of out day persevered in faith feeling abandoned by God. Still, every single day of her life was an example to all the world of fidelity and love of her Savior. She had a will of steel and everyone who saw her could see Jesus in her. She attracted thousands of vocations to her order.

Maybe a few charismatic masses and prayer meetings would have pepped her up a little. She could have gotten some badly needed gifts, tongues, healing, prophecy, etc. Maybe some people could have laid hands on her and prayed in their prayer language and fixed her up. She might have been slain in the spirit and snapped out of her dry spell.

However, the desolation of these “dry spells”, the sense of abandonment, is the most Christ-like experience we can ever receive. It is what Jesus felt both in the garden and on the cross. We cannot identify solely with his teaching, healings and forgiveness. We must also embrace the agony of desolation. Mother Teresa was being prepared for eternity, just as Christ’s human nature was being prepared on the cross.

 

[grandfather]

grandfather;2669460:

However, the desolation of these “dry spells”, the sense of abandonment, is the most Christ-like experience we can ever receive. It is what Jesus felt both in the garden and on the cross. We cannot identify solely with his teaching, healings and forgiveness. We must also embrace the agony of desolation. Mother Teresa was being prepared for eternity, just as Christ’s human nature was being prepared on the cross.

“Unless a man take up His cross and follow me, he is not worthy to be called my disciple”. Mother Teresa did not just experience a dry spell. It went on for sixty years. Jesus did not say, unless a man receive the gift of tongues or healing he is not worthy of me. It is the cross that makes men worthy. So when people are focused on getting these fun gifts and more people manifesting them and why are not there more gifts you never hear anything about the cross. You mentioned it in your response, but that is not what people are all excited about.

“Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus. Where are the saints who promote the seminars and give teachings about manifesting gifts. Their lives are full of miracles. Do they give classes on how more people can get with it in the miracle department? What they teach is holiness. The miracles just happen. “Seek ye first…” All the charismatics I know clearly are looking for spiritual highs. They may say the cross is necessary, personal suffering, but that is not what they are about. The saints simply seek God’s will, whatever He sends. Look into history and see for yourself. I was being sacrasctic when I said Mother Teresa could have been helped by a few high energy charismatic Masses. She was sanctified through her suffering and the saints will tell us that is the only path, the cross, to sanctity.

 

[Doug50]

I had stop reading this thread till today and then I saw this post.
I’m wondering if most charismatics could name the 7 gifts by St. Thomas Aquinas: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety and fear of the Lord. Emotionalism is not one of these.

I’ve been contemplating a similar thing as the above quoted (grandfather). If spirtual enlightenment were as easy as the charismatic movement would entail then why wasn’t this open to St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa (both Doctors of the Church), or Mother Teresa?

If all that is needed is laying of hands and being baptized in the Holy Spirit what then becomes the point of spirtual fortitude? (BTW: the full manifistaion of Holy Spirit is present in your soul from Baptism. It’s up to you to accept Him. Is baptisim in the Holy Spirit after Baptism a new 8th sacrement? Just wonderig)

Again back to Acrhbisoph Martinez: He likened these 7 gifts as the tools of the Holy Spirit, and virtues as human tools. The human soul is the student working in consultation with Him. Using the symbolism of sculpture as Martinez’s example, you present your soul as a slate of marble to the Holy Spirit (the Master Artist). Chipping away at the marble can be quite painful, esp. when you are left seemingly alone to chip. In other symbolism, strengthing the soul can be as painful as a Greek tragedy as if in a barren desert barren of upllifting feelings you are left to be seemingly spiritually alone to wonder the landscape. How else could the student strength his soul if not through such spirtual trials and tribulations? I would think it is through full use of these 7 gifts (like fortitued) along with virtues that bring about the heroic figure of a Mother Teresa. Giving into fortitude is painful where giving into the emotionalism of group psychology is enjoyable and easier. To the archbishop, since we humans cannot be infinate, desiring the Gifts (created things), loving these gifts, crowds our desires/love for the Holy Spirit. St. John of the Cross on desiring revelation: Link

The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit
“But there is a danger: a soul could mistake its own desires for action of the Gifts, since the reasons are not clear to it. Two points must be kept in mind: 1) The full and apparent action of these gifts does not appear until one is well advanced in the spiritual life (hidden assistance by them can come earlier). 2) Ordinarily an inspiration via the Gifts leaves the soul not fully certain–a signal to consult a director or superior. Uncommonly they will give certitude, but only when a decision must be made on the spot, and there is no time to consult.”

Link
“To understand the Gift of Piety—that is, the special disposition
of soul by which the Holy Spirit makes us more sensitive to his own guidance—we must know what piety is in general. Unfortunately, piety is often misrepresented and parodied by misconceptions, prejudices, and stereotypes.We tend to confuse true piety with a kind of pretended sweetness, with superficial exterior devotion, and with fake emotionalism in church.Authentic piety, however, is far from all these things. Real piety, in fact, is a virtue that governs our behavior at all times, and not only when we are engaged in prayer, worship, and other acts of religious devotion. The essence of true piety lies in showing appropriate honor, respect, and appreciation to those deserving of such esteem.”

 

[Doug50]

po18guy;2672775:

“Unless a man take up His cross and follow me, he is not worthy to be called my disciple”. Mother Teresa did not just experience a dry spell. It went on for sixty years. Jesus did not say, unless a man receive the gift of tongues or healing he is not worthy of me. It is the cross that makes men worthy. So when people are focused on getting these fun gifts and more people manifesting them and why are not there more gifts you never hear anything about the cross. You mentioned it in your response, but that is not what people are all excited about.

“Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus. Where are the saints who promote the seminars and give teachings about manifesting gifts. Their lives are full of miracles. Do they give classes on how more people can get with it in the miracle department? What they teach is holiness. The miracles just happen. “Seek ye first…” All the charismatics I know clearly are looking for spiritual highs. They may say the cross is necessary, personal suffering, but that is not what they are about. The saints simply seek God’s will, whatever He sends. Look into history and see for yourself. I was being sacrasctic when I said Mother Teresa could have been helped by a few high energy charismatic Masses. She was sanctified through her suffering and the saints will tell us that is the only path, the cross, to sanctity.

thank you

 

[dcdurel]

If you read carefully St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, he said that the reason they were experiancing gifts was not because God favored them, but because of their lack of faith. God was using these gifts as a last resort to try to get them to believe in Jesus and not fall away and lose their faith.

 

[DebChris]

The gifts that are received from God are not a reward for personal holiness.
We have choices to make in life. We can choose to focus on our trials and tribulations, the crosses that are borne during this lifetime, or we can focus on the resurrection. We are called to walk in the light of Christ, as children of the resurection. St. Paul uses a race to describe the life we live in which the athlete focuses on the finish line. The Israelites rejoiced when they successfully passed through the Red Sea and their enemies were destroyed. While Satan continues to deny defeat, he has been conquered by the Blood of the Cross. If praise comes out of my mouth, it is in response to the gifts received, not because of the gifts themselves but because of Him who is the giver of gifts.
Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit requires a response on our part. They are received in humility with thankful hearts. This humility comes from surrender and submission to the God who is the creator of us all. God who created each of us then makes His presence known in the life He has called each of us to live because He dwells not only in heaven but also in our hearts.
“Take my yoke upon your shoulders for I am meek and humble of heart. My yoke is easy and my burden light.” The charisms manifested in my life remind me that I can do nothing of my own accord. I can, however, do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. It was the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives that made it possible for the Apostles to heal those brought into their paths. The honor did not go to the Apostles but to Christ who worked through each of them.