Charismatic groups

[juliamajor]

.
The charismatic movement has brought many people into our church, yet I still feel the potential for harming the poorly catechised is great.

When all the hoopla and adrenalin subside, will they know how to carry on in silent prayer? Or will they be stuck in a ritual of seeking greater and greater spiritual highs.

Speak in tongues in private all you want to, (for all St.Paul & I know y’all may be speaking in the language of angels) Just DO NOT chant them out loud in church unless an interpreter can tell everyone gathered there what you are saying-
otherwise people will wonder why you follow your own rules instead of St. Paul’s.

As for the laying on of hands-lets just say I view that as very problematic in the hands of the unwary, and dangerous for some-best left for ordained persons to administer.

The Holy Spirit will come to anyone who seeks Him in Truth.

.And the evil one is always alert for an easy target with an open door.

Carry on in silent prayer? Honey I do it all the time. my friends and I spend most of our prayer time in contemplation. As far as poorly cathechized- they usually don’t go charismatic they go Protestant.laying on of hands- anyone can do that - were not ordaining someone were praying- and praying for someone’s health is duty of aChristian…As far as praying in tongues- I don’t - not every charismatic does.It’s not a prerequisite or something- it’s a prayer language between prayerer and the Lord-we don’t do it just anywhere they do in charismatic groups or services- so if you don’t want to hear it- just don’t go to a meeting or service were it is practiced.

 

[Jimdandy]

{laying on of hands- anyone can do that }

-just be careful of what it appears to be to others.

I pray frequently for others-I just keep my hands to myself.

Except, of course, I may hold hands with or brush the hair off the brow of someone when they are sick or dying.
I may hold a lost or hurting child or hug a friend in need.
But I do not go to church or prayer meetings to hug and touch everyone there.
Part of loving our neighbors is respecting the personal space of others.

JMHO

 

[garysibio]

That is exactly why God gave us the Sacraments. Speaking in tongues is not the food that nourishes us. It is God’s grace which does that and His grace comes though the Sacraments, not speaking in tongues.

A couple of points:

1. Sacraments are not the only channels of God’s grace. For example, we have the sacramentals such as the rosary.
2. The spiritual gifts, including praying in tongues, are manifestations of the sacrament of confirmation. This does not mean that you don’t have the Holy Spirit if you don’t exercise them or that you are somehow a second-class Catholic.
3. Since the charismatic movement got started in the Catholic Church in the late 60s, the popes have reacted favorably to it. Check out these links:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
in-unity.org/
religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

If the charismatic movement was in opposition to the teachings of the RCC, then why would Pope Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI applaud it?

Gary

 

[Jimdandy]

Only through Sacraments do we receive grace-sacramentals prepare us to receive the Grace from the Sacraments-HUGE difference.

 

[juliamajor]

{laying on of hands- anyone can do that }

-just be careful of what it appears to be to others.

I pray frequently for others-I just keep my hands to myself.

Except, of course, I may hold hands with or brush the hair off the brow of someone when they are sick or dying.
I may hold a lost or hurting child or hug a friend in need.
But I do not go to church or prayer meetings to hug and touch everyone there.
Part of loving our neighbors is respecting the personal space of others.

JMHO

Nobody has hands laid on them that doesn’t want to- we don’t have people come into the church , lock they doors and put our dastardly palms on anybody.It’s all voluntary-We do respect personal space we don’t grab someone out of the pews and say" Heal"!! What it appears like to other? I have no idea what that means.

 

[garysibio]

Only through Sacraments do we receive grace-sacramentals prepare us to receive the Grace from the Sacraments-HUGE difference.

Maybe I’m wrong about the sacramentals. I haven’t got the time to check it out but it’s irrelevant to the discussion anyway. The gifts of the Holy Spirit, including tongues, is a part of the sacrament of Confirmation.

Gary

 

[ERose]

That is exactly why God gave us the Sacraments. Speaking in tongues is not the food that nourishes us. It is God’s grace which does that and His grace comes though the Sacraments, not speaking in tongues.

Then why pray the Rosary? Why read scripture? Why, because it is all spiritual food. God is the ultimate psychologist. He knew he made us all not the same and that some people would be edified by some devotions while others would not be. That is the reason why there is so many types of prayer out there: liturgical, devotions, personal, meditative, contempletive, charismatic, etc. (Note: I did not put these in order of importance just the way they came up in my head while I was writing. ). There are different strokes for different folks in the Church and thank God for that.

Speaking the tongues of Angels as Paul calls it is a wonder type of prayer just like every other type of prayer in my opinion because it is edifying not just to the person pray but also to the Church as well because all types of prayer in one shape or another edifies the whole church as well as the person doing the praying.

I personnally have had the gift of tongues for about 20 years now and have found it edifying to my spiritual life. I do not go to the Charismatic meetings and have not for about 10-15 years for my spiritual needs have evolved away from the movement. Didn’t leave because I was unhappy or anything, just led a different direction.

Anyway, It is a type of Prayer. Not greater than or less than any of the other types of Prayer out there in my opinion.

 

[Sabda]

A couple of points:

1. Sacraments are not the only channels of God’s grace. For example, we have the sacramentals such as the rosary.

JimDandy is right. Sacramentals do not bestow grace.

1. The spiritual gifts, including praying in tongues, are manifestations of the sacrament of confirmation. This does not mean that you don’t have the Holy Spirit if you don’t exercise them or that you are somehow a second-class Catholic.

I checked out the Catechism and it does not say that. It listed the Spiritual gifts and tongues was not one listed in the Catechism.

1. Since the charismatic movement got started in the Catholic Church in the late 60s, the popes have reacted favorably to it. Check out these links:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
in-unity.org/
religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

If the charismatic movement was in opposition to the teachings of the RCC, then why would Pope Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI applaud it?

Gary

I think you need to reread that link from EWTN. For example:

Thus the Church on the one hand recognizes that the Holy Spirit moves where He will, and so she does not want to oppose His working, and on the other, that the Church must discern the authenticity of each charism, lest it be a deception of the evil one. For this reason to say that the Charismatic Renewal is approved by the Church is not a blanket approval of every alleged charismatic gift or every charismatic group or individual within the Church. The discernment of the Holy Spirit’s action is an ongoing necessity within the Church and within the Charismatic Renewal.

Personally If I started speaking a language I did not understand I would pause simple because I would not want to be cursing God. I would find it much more edifying if I actually knew what I was saying. As such would only want to do so with an interpreter around.

 

[garysibio]

JimDandy is right. Sacramentals do not bestow grace.

Yes, I was wrong about sacramentals but what the CCC does say about them certainly doesn’t mean they should be downplayed:

1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. “For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God.”

At any rate, the sacramentals issue is off-topic since the gift of tongues is associated with confirmation, a sacrament.

I checked out the Catechism and it does not say that. It listed the Spiritual gifts and tongues was not one listed in the Catechism.

You didn’t look hard enough. Here’s what the CCC says about confirmation:

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

• it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;
• it unites us more firmly to Christ;
• it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
• it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
• it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.

Later it says:

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

(emphasis mine)

Note what it says about the charisms (spiritual gifts) being for the common good of the Church.

I think you need to reread that link from EWTN. For example:

I would agree with that quote entirely but the point I was making was that you are opposing the opinion of the papacy in your rejection of the charismatic movement. That point still stands.

Here’s another quote from the EWTN article regarding how the recent popes have viewed the movement:

The Charismatic Renewal as a movement within the Catholic Church has been acknowledged by two Popes, Paul VI and John Paul II. Speaking to the International Conference on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on May 19, 1975, Pope Paul VI encouraged the attendees in their renewal efforts and especially to remain anchored in the Church.

This authentic desire to situate yourselves in the Church is the authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit ... How could this 'spiritual renewal' not be a chance for the Church and the world? And how, in this case could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so...

Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,

I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.

It also might interest you to know that Fr. Mitch Pacwa of EWTN is not only a charismatic, he used to say the Mass every week for the charismatic prayer group at Loyola University in Chicago until he was transferred to the University of Dallas. I have been present many times when he prayed in tongues.

Personally If I started speaking a language I did not understand I would pause simple because I would not want to be cursing God. I would find it much more edifying if I actually knew what I was saying. As such would only want to do so with an interpreter around.

You need to take a good look at Scripture. Don’t worry. It’s a Catholic document written by Catholics.

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. (! Cor 14:2)

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:3)

Since tongues is praying in the Spirit, it is impossible to curse God. Pray for the strength to accept God’s word.

Gary

 

[Sabda]

Then why pray the Rosary? Why read scripture? Why, because it is all spiritual food. God is the ultimate psychologist. He knew he made us all not the same and that some people would be edified by some devotions while others would not be. That is the reason why there is so many types of prayer out there: liturgical, devotions, personal, meditative, contempletive, charismatic, etc. (Note: I did not put these in order of importance just the way they came up in my head while I was writing. ). There are different strokes for different folks in the Church and thank God for that.

Speaking the tongues of Angels as Paul calls it is a wonder type of prayer just like every other type of prayer in my opinion because it is edifying not just to the person pray but also to the Church as well because all types of prayer in one shape or another edifies the whole church as well as the person doing the praying.

I personally have had the gift of tongues for about 20 years now and have found it edifying to my spiritual life. I do not go to the Charismatic meetings and have not for about 10-15 years for my spiritual needs have evolved away from the movement. Didn’t leave because I was unhappy or anything, just led a different direction.

Anyway, It is a type of Prayer. Not greater than or less than any of the other types of Prayer out there in my opinion.

My problem with it is there is too much of an emphasize being put on tongues by Charismatics. Tongues is a minor gift, the Bible makes that clear. It also makes clear that tongues will cease. When is of course, up for debate. History has shown that after Apostolic times tongues was a rare gift that most people did not have. Now all of a sudden large numbers of people are speaking in tongues? What’s worse is people are admitting that they are being pressured into this and have faked it. If this is truly a gift from God it will be given to you regardless of whether or not you sought this gift. God gives us what he wills when he wills. Everything I have read on this particular charisma, including the Bible, has made one thing very clear. You must proceed with caution!!! You should not just dive into this without some very serious discernment. The discernment is what seems to be lacking in this.

 

[fhansen]

In the bible it is stated that prophecy is better than tongues. It says while it is helping you to know something that someone else doesn’t, it is better to know something and to share it. So could this be applied to charismatics meetings? They speek in tongues only among themselves. Please tell me if my undrstanding of that verse from the bible is wrong.

Any gift from God, if it is truly genuine, should not be ignored or put down-it can only be looked upon as an awesome thing whether it’s of a greater or a lesser order. The other option is that it originates with us in which case it has no value at all.

 

[garysibio]

My problem with it is there is too much of an emphasize being put on tongues by Charismatics. Tongues is a minor gift, the Bible makes that clear. It also makes clear that tongues will cease. When is of course, up for debate. History has shown that after Apostolic times tongues was a rare gift that most people did not have. Now all of a sudden large numbers of people are speaking in tongues? What’s worse is people are admitting that they are being pressured into this and have faked it. If this is truly a gift from God it will be given to you regardless of whether or not you sought this gift. God gives us what he wills when he wills. Everything I have read on this particular charisma, including the Bible, has made one thing very clear. You must proceed with caution!!! You should not just dive into this without some very serious discernment. The discernment is what seems to be lacking in this.

Tongues will cease someday as will prophecy and, the one that no one ever mentions, knowledge. Most people believe that St. Paul is referring to the return of Jesus when these things will cease because they will no longer be needed. Some Christians, namely the Dispensationalists, say they ended at the end of the first century AD but their theology also led them to a false belief in the Rapture and a literal, 1000-year Millenium, both teachings firmly rejected by the Catholic Church.

Since the gifts are given for the edification of the Church, I find it a bit hard to think that they are not needed these days.

I understand what you mean about overemphasis but, on the other hand, St. Paul did say that he wished everyone spoke in tongues. (1 Cor 14:5)

In 1 Cor 12 & 14 it is pretty clear that the gifts are to be exercised in the context of a community so that problems can be handled.

Gary

 

[Sabda]

Gary

I never stated that I was opposed to this. You initial post came off sounding like tongues was supposed to be a big part of the diet. That’s what I was objecting too. It’s not, if anything it’s a side dish. The Sacraments and the Mass should be the main part of the diet for a Catholic. That has been my main problem with this. I have seen and heard of too many people who make speaking in tongues the main dish. I have seen very little discernment and caution going on with this particular charisma. That seriously concerns me, since everything I have read, including the Bible speaks of proceeding with caution.

While the Church supports the Renewal it does not state that everyone in the Renewal is guaranteed the gift of tongues. That should be discerned and the person should be under the guidance of a good spiritual director.

 

[Sabda]

Any gift from God, if it is truly genuine, should not be ignored or put down-it can only be looked upon as an awesome thing whether it’s of a greater or a lesser order. The other option is that it originates with us in which case it has no value at all.

Unfortunately those are not the only two options. The third is that it could be demonic.

 

[po18guy]

In the bible it is stated that prophecy is better than tongues. It says while it is helping you to know something that someone else doesn’t, it is better to know something and to share it. So could this be applied to charismatics meetings? They speek in tongues only among themselves. Please tell me if my undrstanding of that verse from the bible is wrong.

I believe that any overemphasis on speaking and praying in tongues is disordered and improper. I have never seen anyone interpret the tongues. This charism is high profile, and can appeal to the ego and lead to elitism. I cannot decry the use of tongues, but it seems to me that it must be reigned in some, and placed in balance with the other gifts.

The gift of prophecy is much better for the building up of the church, but it appears as just plain old talk! But, I assure you that it has its own reward in spirituality. How do you build up the church using strictly tongues? By babbling on in an unintelligible language, with no interpretation, you are only separating yourself from fellow believers.

We are called to be one, and if there is interpretation, wonderful! We all can benefit from the inspiration. However, the plain old gift of prophecy accomplishes much more for the building up of the church, just as Saint Paul so clearly said in 1 Corinthians 14. Verses 1-12 are of particular importance.

Christ’s peace.

 

[garysibio]

Any gift from God, if it is truly genuine, should not be ignored or put down-it can only be looked upon as an awesome thing whether it’s of a greater or a lesser order. The other option is that it originates with us in which case it has no value at all.

Amen. It’s all spelled out in Luke 11:11-13.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

Gary

I never stated that I was opposed to this. You initial post came off sounding like tongues was supposed to be a big part of the diet. That’s what I was objecting too. It’s not, if anything it’s a side dish. The Sacraments and the Mass should be the main part of the diet for a Catholic. That has been my main problem with this. I have seen and heard of too many people who make speaking in tongues the main dish. I have seen very little discernment and caution going on with this particular charisma. That seriously concerns me, since everything I have read, including the Bible speaks of proceeding with caution.

While the Church supports the Renewal it does not state that everyone in the Renewal is guaranteed the gift of tongues. That should be discerned and the person should be under the guidance of a good spiritual director.

In threads where several people are pretty active, it’s sometimes difficult to keep track of who says what. If I implied that you said domething that you didn’t. I apologize.

I did state in one of my posts that I am not saying that people who do not pray in tongues are not Christians or are somehow second-class, but I do believe that the potential is there for any confirmed Catholic to pray in tongues if they choose to open themselves to the gift. Again, this should not be taken to imply anything about those who do not.

I don’t believe that tongues is “the main dish” as you put it. the gift of tongues is “spiritual food.” It’s the start, not the goal.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

I believe that the overemphasis on speaking and praying in tongues is disordered and improper. I have never seen anyone interpret the tongues. This charism is high profile, and can appeal to the ego and lead to elitism. I cannot decry every use of tongues, but it seems to me that it must be reigned in some, and placed in balance with the other gifts.

I’ve seen interpretations given several times but it wasn’t while praying in tongues. Someone prophesied in a tongue and it was followed by an interpretation.

I have heard of many cases in which someone came up to someone praying in tongues and was able to identify the language and tell them what they were saying. When I was in college I did a paper which included over one hundred accounts of this sort of thing. One case was extraordinarily exceptional in that the language was identified as an old dialect of German and the person who spoke it was otherwise mute. He couldn’t speak at all except when praying in tongues.

Gary

 

[po18guy]

I’ve seen interpretations given several times but it wasn’t while praying in tongues. Someone prophesied in a tongue and it was followed by an interpretation.

I have heard of many cases in which someone came up to someone praying in tongues and was able to identify the language and tell them what they were saying. When I was in college I did a paper which included over one hundred accounts of this sort of thing. One case was extraordinarily exceptional in that the language was identified as an old dialect of German and the person who spoke it was otherwise mute. He couldn’t speak at all except when praying in tongues.

Gary

Such is the Holy Spirit! The abuses come when those present say “we’re not stopping until everyone speaks in tongues!” In the spiritual realm, spirits must absolutely be discerned, as we live in the princedom of the evil one. He is excellent at mimicking good spirits. At the very minimum, insistence upon the exercise of just one gift, to the exclusion of the others, is unbalanced and appears egotistical.

I asked for the release of one gift, but got another. I was originally disappointed, but no more! The Lord knows what He is doing.

Christ’s peace.

 

[lampstand]

I believe that any overemphasis on speaking and praying in tongues is disordered and improper. I have never seen anyone interpret the tongues. This charism is high profile, and can appeal to the ego and lead to elitism. I cannot decry the use of tongues, but it seems to me that it must be reigned in some, and placed in balance with the other gifts.

I think that’s a good way to put it. Whenever I watch Protestant shows in which someone just spontaneously goes into a bout of speaking in tongues, and then they return right away to ‘regular’ speech, I have to feel kind of sorry for the congregation, who have no interpreters and thus no way to understand what was just said. So the entire event was just useless, of no help to anybody.

Then again, a lot of the televangelist types probably use it just as a publicity stunt; they don’t seem inclined to help the people to whom they’re speaking, and perhaps haven’t even read the whole passage that’s involved. This is what happens when you go away from the helpful framework of the Church and start making it up as you go along.