CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

  • Thread starter Thread starter misericordie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Can we agree first that how we pray and the sort of services we prefer are, within boundaries, up to each of us individually?

That being said, there has been a lot of reasonable defense of Charismatic Masses. Those of you who prefer them have been very calm but I do not doubt that you’ve been offended and that is unfortunate.

In all humility, as I mentioned in an above post (somewhere up there,) I am not someone who feels at all comfortable with them while I have some very devout friends who are. But do you, our Charismatic friends, understand how scary, unreal, even offensive some such Masses can seem to people who aren’t moved by them? We can’t help it – and I know you’re not attacking us – and you are certainly within Church guidelines. But it’s hard, very hard, to accept when at times people act out in what at least appears to be a sensuous way. People react strongly because they really can’t relate and because it doesn’t seem reverent in the traditional sense.

I’m not suggesting that Charismatics aren’t reverent. I don’t really know because I can’t relate. All I know is that my dear friends, who attend our very traditional church really start swaying in a different church setting. I sigh and remind myself that I just don’t understand.

Perhaps we should all describe what we consider “reverent” to mean?

Thanks and God bless.
 
40.png
misericordie:
The issue of “validity” DEPENDS. Are the Rubrics followed? Does the priest omit or add anything? Though most are valid, I am sure Many are illicit, which is different.
Code: 
       Pax Christi.    
           Bye.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess it’s a good thing I go to a Charismatic mass that is both valid and licit! And we sometimes make use of drums, guitars, even electric guitars. . . but it is still perfectly licit. Why? Because we have permission.

You state that most are valid. If that is the case, why would characterize the churches in which these Masses occur as being non-Catholic churches?
 
Good Morning Church
God Bless you Yves for such kind words.
I know exactly what you mean.
In 1955, I went to my first Catholic Mass. It was a High Mass, of course back then in Latin, complete with inscense and all.
I had come out of old mainline protestant churches, mostly Baptist, 4 square gospel and Nazarene. They were in South Central Los Angeles and a few of them black fellowships. I was raised very anti-Catholic and had heard all sorts of weird stories about the Catholic Church and Catholics in general. God does have a sense of humor as the man He chose for me was a very devout Catholic.
People were genuflecting, sitting, standing, kneeling, bells were ringing, folks were beating their chests and the Church was filled with smoke, not to mention the chanting. My first experience was indeed pretty scary. God pulled me kicking and screaming straight into it.
I finally accepted, learned and then fell in love with this beautiful Church. Nothing would ever pull me away.
A decade later the Charismatic Renewal came along. It is a long story but to cut it short, I was dragged into this, me resisting all the way. God made His will very clear to me. I stomped my foot, rebeled and swore I would never ever pray in tongues or raise my hands in prayer. It looked too weird to me.
However, I fell in love over and over and over again with the Holy Trinity and Holy Mother Church in a whole new way.
I developed a relationship with the Blessed Mother that I didn’t know was possible. I became more Catholic. It had nothing to do with what I did, it was the Holy Spirit all the way.
The Charismatic Renewal led me into Contemplative Prayer where my adoration of the Holy Trinity expanded like mad.
This has been a beautiful, holy Spiritual journey. It hurts so when folks put it down without knowing all the facts.
Thank you so much for your kindness, Yves.
 
I do agree that love and charity are what makes us Christian. Hence, lets all be charitable, and may the light of Christ shine through our words here.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
Peace to all and good wishes.:blessyou:
 
HUGGZZZ to misericordie. Bless your heart, that was very sweet.

Aren’t we blessed to be Catholic and Jesus has made sure His universal Church embraces all of us.

They will know we are Christians by how we love one another. That is a big thing. It is not the only way but a big way.
 
First, to RESPOND to the illicit invalid thing, is very arrogant for any group in the church to disobey the latest document of the Vatican regarding liturgical abuse, (the cardinal Arinze’ document) and the Vatican II document on the sacred Liturgy: regarding sacred music and liturgical instruments. It is clear to anyone who actually reads the documents that: the organ is the only instrument mentioned, Gregorian Chant takes precedence, and polyphony is second in beuty to Gregorian Chant, and these are the only worship methods mentioned by name. It is highly arrogant for anyone to beleive they are the exception to these rules and hence it does not apply to them because their pastor decides to disregard these vatican Instructions, and hence the “electric guitars”, drums, banjoes, haevy metal Christian music, etc.
Humility and obedience to the Vatican over any local priest, or maybe bishop is key to following God's will that we obey His will, through the afformentioned documents.
 
40.png
misericordie:
It is clear to anyone who actually reads the documents that: the organ is the only instrument mentioned, Gregorian Chant takes precedence, and polyphony is second in beuty to Gregorian Chant, and these are the only worship methods mentioned by name.
Click to expand...
You keep quoting that document out of context. I do not think it says what you think it says. 😉 If you need to refresh your memory, you can read it anytime online. You are correct that they are the only instruments mentioned and recommended, but it is very clear that although they are held in “high esteem,” “other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority” (a direct quote). So, other instruments are allowed, and it is left up to the bishops to decide what is appropriate.

You claim to value “Humility and obedience.” Why are you rejecting the fact that this Vatican document gives the bishops the authority to choose what music is proper for their churches? It is very clearly worded.

You say the bishops are not in obedience to the will of the Vatican? Then how do explain the quotes that have been posted repeatedly (and repeatedly ignored by you) from Cardinals and the Pope explicitly praising the Charismatic movement? Do you reject them as well?

You value “objective truth”? How do you know what is true? By saying that Masses with charismatic elements are not valid, you are rejecting the explicit wording of Sacrosanctum Concilium, you are rejecting the liturgical judgment of the bishops, and you are rejecting the comments from the Cardinals and the Pope. Are you the only true authority on this matter? Your personal interpretation of Vatican documents is paramount?

Do you have any documentation to back up your claim that all charismatic Masses are invalid? Because so far, you have failed to respond to all the evidence others here have presented, and you have offered nothing to back up your own position.

Let me guess … I “STILL don’t get it!!!” I guess until I receive whatever personal divine inspiration you are receiving, I’ll just have to rely on Church teaching on this matter.
 
NO, I don’t claim to have any divine revelation. However, many charismaticsI have known, do seem to claim to have a direct link to God, hence the speaking in tongues thing. others here have mentioned that the charismatic renewal seems very much as a neo Montanist heresy, and this claim seems well founded at times. With all truth, regarding the speaking in tongues issue (as the Montanist followers), there is also a very close similarity with the Gnostic heresy. Gnosis=know (greek) because many claim to be the ones who alone have been blessed by the “gift of tongues”, and hence are the only ones who possess some secret knowlege.
Code: 
It is quite funny actually that some have mentioned that NO, Vatican II never said the organ is to be highly esteemed as the instrument of preference, and that Gregorian Chant is also to be given priority in the Roman Rite, and that polyphony is also to be valued.  Now, is this then not true??  Did the Vatican say this or Not?  And if it did, then why is it being contested?  Yes, (sad to say) the Vatican did give some leeway to bishops regarding their dioceses and instruments used, but then did the document actually specifically, and by name say: electric guitars, drums, etc.?  And again to what instrument and genre of music did the document actually refer to? (believe me, in my theology major for my degree, at a famous  Jesuit University, I had to study the document).      Is it then denied that the document gave precedence to the organ, Gregorian Chant, and Polyphony?  Many catholics I know want to go with what was given order of priority by the Holy see itself in order of precedence,  more so than the local personal opinion of any local pastor or bishop.  I would rather listen to the Vicar of Christ on Earth, then the opinion of a local pastor,  Or to those who following no documents,and hence have a: my way-or-highway attitude.
Notice here I do not specifically use any name, nor do I attack any person by using “you”, but rather, I write here in general, and broad terms. In any logic class one is always taught to attack the argument, not the one who makes it. To do otherwise would be to mimic current politics.
 
40.png
misericordie:
First, to RESPOND to the illicit invalid thing, is very arrogant for any group in the church to disobey the latest document of the Vatican regarding liturgical abuse, (the cardinal Arinze’ document) and the Vatican II document on the sacred Liturgy: regarding sacred music and liturgical instruments. It is clear to anyone who actually reads the documents that: the organ is the only instrument mentioned, Gregorian Chant takes precedence, and polyphony is second in beuty to Gregorian Chant, and these are the only worship methods mentioned by name. It is highly arrogant for anyone to beleive they are the exception to these rules and hence it does not apply to them because their pastor decides to disregard these vatican Instructions, and hence the “electric guitars”, drums, banjoes, haevy metal Christian music, etc.

Humility and obedience to the Vatican over any local priest, or maybe bishop is key to following God’s will that we obey His will, through the afformentioned documents.
Click to expand...
Now this is a topic I am interested in! Music. . . and the intersection of music and worship.

It is absolutely true: the council document says that preference to be given to the organ and to Gregorian chant. However, it also says that cultural expressions must be taken into consideration and that it is certainly possible for other instruments to be used.
 
40.png
yves:
Can we agree first that how we pray and the sort of services we prefer are, within boundaries, up to each of us individually?

That being said, there has been a lot of reasonable defense of Charismatic Masses. Those of you who prefer them have been very calm but I do not doubt that you’ve been offended and that is unfortunate…
Click to expand...
I can truthfully say that I am not offended by those who are “heels -dug-in-opposed” to Charismatics. In 99% of the cases, they simply don’t know what the movement is really about nor what we are doing. There’s often fear or hurt feeling behind their anger and always a great deal of misinformation circulating. I feel only sympathy for them, with the occasionally fleshy bout of irritation, I admit. (please forgive me brothers and sisters) It’s like Fulton Sheen once said, there are thousands who are opposed to what they THINK is the Catholic Church: but only a handful who are opposed to what we really are (paraphrased) Same thing is true for this Charismatic renewal.

We are “within the boundaries”,. as you state, so I am confident that I am not violating any teaching of my beloved Catholic Faith.

More in the next posts: too long to post! ( I have to learn to be more concise!)
 
40.png
yves:
In all humility, as I mentioned in an above post (somewhere up there,) I am not someone who feels at all comfortable with them while I have some very devout friends who are. But do you, our Charismatic friends, understand how scary, unreal, even offensive some such Masses can seem to people who aren’t moved by them? We can’t help it – and I know you’re not attacking us – and you are certainly within Church guidelines. But it’s hard, very hard, to accept when at times people act out in what at least appears to be a sensuous way.
Click to expand...
Yves, I thank you sincerely for your kind tone and your genuine question. 🙂 Yes I understand how it can be “scary”. :eek: I pray we are never offensive to anyone. It is never our desire to be divisive: if anything, the Charismatic renewal seeks to be on the forefront of the reunification of all Christianity.

Remember that once upon a time, I too went to my first Charismatic prayer meeting. I was literally stunned into silence by the outpouring I saw there, and it was many weeks before I was able to work through my feelings and return again, though I still did not participate. I was a new Catholic, a new Christian really, and had never even heard anyone teach with such authority nor pray with such fervor, mush less use tongues. What drew me back again was that the people I knew who were devout, practicing Catholics, whose lives were calm and well ordered and totally submitted to God, were all involved in this lay apostolate. I figured it had to have something of value to it. It took me over three years to yeild to the Spirit I had received three years before, at my baptism, and to begin to participate in the charismatic worship. Now I cannot imagine worshipping God Incarnate without lifting my arms! My daily Masses, weekly prayer meeting and frequent SLC meetings continue to feed my soul and inspire my heart to Love God more and more.

I understand that the exhuberance and physicality of our meetings can be off-putting to someone of a more introverted temperment. I do not find that insulting in the least and I honor you for your honesty. As I think I have stated before, it’s OK that this movement is NOT for everyone. I am not here to convert anyone to come to our meetings, though all are invited and welcomed.

One of the things that drew me into the Catholic Church 21 years ago (I am a convert, former atheist) was Her total embrace of all thing human: the Church had “smells and bells”, gorgeous pictures, rich liturgical symbolism, candles, sacred space, and music, such music!!! The Protestant churches, almost without exception, tend to reject the body as a “bad” thing. Their churches are often devoid of anything remotely attractive to the five senses, though they do sometimes have good choirs. I do not mean this as a slam to Protestants: just that the bare walls did not appeal to me, nor did the geometrical stained glass windows.
(more in next post)
 
Not so Catholicism. She understands that we are souls who have bodies and we must live inside that body, and that body affects how we think and who we are. If you live in a crippled body you will become someone different from the person who lives in a strong healthy body. In many ways, my recent beginning study of the Theology of The Body, by Pope JP2, has tied into my understanding of this lay apostolate movement. The Charismatic movement is joyful, exhuberant, and kinesthetic: we wave our hands, we sometimes dance (during prayer meetings, not Masses, so no one panic here 😉 ) and we worship with our entire beings, body, mind, soul and spirit combined.

This appeals to me: it may not appeal to you, and that’s perfectly alright. 👍 It’s OK not to be attracted to this movement. I hope that I can help you not find it to be so scary. I personally find deeply ascetic movements “scary”. But I see the need for them inside our Faith. We are many parts: we are all one Body, and the gifts we have, we are given to share. 😃
 
Last post tonight, I promise! 😃
40.png
yves:
I’m not suggesting that Charismatics aren’t reverent. I don’t really know because I can’t relate. All I know is that my dear friends, who attend our very traditional church really start swaying in a different church setting. I sigh and remind myself that I just don’t understand.

Perhaps we should all describe what we consider “reverent” to mean?

Thanks and God bless.
Click to expand...
OK, good idea. I’ll start: reverent to me means many things, first and foremost the recognition that we are showing respect for something far greater than ourselves, the Creator of All Things. It can mean by turns a solemn silence, a profound emotional connection, a deferential stance, a worshipful attitude, a piety that reveals itself in our body position and our attention. In church, it means that we pay attention to the miracle occuring on the altar at the hands of the priest, and that we do our best to stay focused on the sacred prayer of the mass and not disturb nor be distracted by our neighbors. In prayer meetings, it means basically the same thing: pay attention to God, be reverent, listen!!

For an African from Zimbabwe, or a Brazilian orphan, the organ is NOT going to be his reverent choice of musical accompaniement, nor will Gregorian chant, which likely the two have never heard before. For Misericordie, and many other of European and American descent, it is, and you know what? That’s OK. 😃 The GIRM says it’s OK and I believe it.

Who’s next?
 
As long as there are certain groups ijn the church who foster liturgical abuse by their very noise filled “masses” there will those who are faithful to Catholic Tradition, but more importantly who are obedient to the documents of the Holy See regarding Liturgical abuse, and pastors I know who when they become pastors, for the sake of being faithful to the rubrics and CURRENT liturgical abuses, PROHIBIT:clapping: the electric guitars, drums, hands flying side to side:eek: and paople interupting the mass by shouting out loud every minute: “alleluya”. Oh, yes I almost forgot, if these masses are teen filled (not all, but many charismatic ones) there is also the latest hip-hop dancing, or the dancing by moving side-to-side, whilke clapping:clapping: their hands. I know many a pastor who has made the rules of his parish clear on this: there will be no pentecostal style masses here. If they insist, these pastors withdraw all their help to these groups. They have told me they try to be nice, but some of “these groups are so brainwashed into doing their own thing” that the pastors must them be firm. :yup:
Ecclesia Mater Nostra Est
 
Thank you Pope John Paul II for your 1988 document : “Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei” which gave the right to all Catholics to attend the ever so growing Mass: The Tridentine Latin Mass of Indult.🙂 When I do attend, I am amazed at the amount of young adults attending. More then even the Novus Ordo Mass.
:tiphat:
 
40.png
misericordie:
PROHIBIT:clapping: the electric guitars, drums, hands flying side to side:eek: and paople interupting the mass by shouting out loud every minute: “alleluya”. Oh, yes I almost forgot, if these masses are teen filled (not all, but many charismatic ones) there is also the latest hip-hop dancing,
Click to expand...
Again, Misericordie, I have literally NEVER seen any of this at the Charismatic Masses I have attended worldwide in 17 years of being a member. Not once. Never. No electric guitars during Mass. No people interrupting Mass. (That’s appalling). No hip hop dancing. We do sometimes sway but I am pretty sure that’s allowed, if for no other reason that to ease the blood pressure in our legs. 😃

Whatever is happening near you, I assure you is not the mainstream of what is happening in the Charismatic Renewal worldwide. I hope that is of some comfort to you.
 
Are some of you sure there is no dancing in ANY charismatic mass? I attended a couple where not only the people danced, but the priests were spinning around as if dancing the hussle. Two were concelebrating one I attended (oh, believe me, I am VERY familiar with the renewal) in which both priests entered dancing merengue to the tune of electric guitars, drums, and marracas. I wish I had a video camera then. What’s next, the Maccarena fathers?
 
Dear misercordie,
why do you attend these Masses? Just curious, it sounds like you’ve been to quite a few of them. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top