CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

[misericordie]

:dancing: I have noticed that usually parishes in which much Liturgical Abuse takes place in are usually ultra-charismatic ones.
The members of such parishes (in some) seem they are just there for the entertainment. Let’s also say a parish has had charismatic pastors in the past, and suddenly a NEW REAL Catholic pastor arrives who tells the parish members what Liturgical Laws actually say, and NO more electric guitars, drums, Christian merengue whatever, cannot continue. Well, for the most part these members will angrily either protest or leave when corrected. The ones who leave usually begin to attend another parish in which Liturgical Abuse is perpetuated. However, why is it these same ones who leave, etc., and go to another parish which perpetuates liturgical abuse are almost always members of the chrismatic renewal? Can’t they grasp liturgical truth: the Liturgical Laws of the Church ?

 

[system]

:dancing: I have noticed that usually parishes in which much Liturgical Abuse takes place in are usually ultra-charismatic ones.
The members of such parishes (in some) seem they are just there for the entertainment. Let’s also say a parish has had charismatic pastors in the past, and suddenly a NEW REAL Catholic pastor arrives who tells the parish members what Liturgical Laws actually say, and NO more electric guitars, drums, Christian merengue whatever, cannot continue. Well, for the most part these members will angrily either protest or leave when corrected. The ones who leave usually begin to attend another parish in which Liturgical Abuse is perpetuated. However, why is it these same ones who leave, etc., and go to another parish which perpetuates liturgical abuse are almost always members of the chrismatic renewal? Can’t they grasp liturgical truth: the Liturgical Laws of the Church ?

This is an insult! Your generalization of Charismatics is meanspirited and wrong. I think what I hear you saying is ALL Charismatics are there for entertainment and Litugical Abuse and they can’t grasp the error of their ways. Is this what your saying?

How many times have you been to Charismatic Masses? Who commissioned you an expert on the Charismatic Renewal? If what you are saying is true, how do explain this?

ROME, JUNE 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Profound friendship with Jesus Christ and a sure and strong sense of conversion are just two of the effects of the Holy Spirit, say charismatic renewal leaders.

The leaders of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal recently shared with ZENIT their personal experience of Pentecost. The ICCRS, headquartered in Vatican City, provides service, communication and linkage to this ecclesial reality whose spirituality is followed by more than 100 million Catholics.

At the vigil of Pentecost in St. Peter’s Basilica, on May 29, John Paul II sent special greetings to the Rinnovamento nello Spirito Santo, an Italian branch of the expression of Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The Pope said that “thanks to the charismatic movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life.”

Is our Holy Father condoning liturgical abuse? I think you know not what your saying!

 

[JNB]

I am surprised no one ever challenges the numbers involved in the Charismatic movment. My guess is many just simpily incluse every mass that has upbeat music as Charismatic. The full on Pentacostal style Charismatics are far more rare at least from my experience.

In the diocese I am in, the self described Charismatics are not all that common, and tend to be an older crowd. As for being meanspirited and wrong, sorry, at times Charismatics get too involved in emotion, with too little substance, that is why from what I can gather, the Charismatic movment in the Catholic church in the US at least is burning itself out.

 

[Iohannes]

Charismaticism is an import from protestantism, why would anyone want to have something imported from protestantism.
There was no charismaticism in the early church.

Not everything the Holy Father does or say is guided by the Holy Ghost.

 

[system]

JNB:

I am surprised no one ever challenges the numbers involved in the Charismatic movment. My guess is many just simpily incluse every mass that has upbeat music as Charismatic. The full on Pentacostal style Charismatics are far more rare at least from my experience.

In the diocese I am in, the self described Charismatics are not all that common, and tend to be an older crowd. As for being meanspirited and wrong, sorry, at times Charismatics get too involved in emotion, with too little substance, that is why from what I can gather, the Charismatic movment in the Catholic church in the US at least is burning itself out.

Who are you to judge that I get too involved in emotions? Who are you to judge my relationship with God? Who are you to judge that that relationship has too little substance?

This is a Big Church and there is room for all of us.
Your condemnation of what the Church approves say that in your eyes I am less of a Catholic than you are. That your way is the only way. What about those Eastern Rite Catholics who’s worship of God is different than yours? Are they too emotional? Is their worship of God shallow and litte substance because they don’t match up to yours?

If this is your idea of being Catholic, I say, “No Thank You!”

Have you ever heard of Righteous Anger? I feel I’m coming down with a touch of it!

 

[JNB]

You know, its time that we all cool off in these forums. I simpily pointed out issues that Charismatics can fall into, worship that is all based on emotion with little theological/sacramental substance becomes empty, and it eventually burns itself out.

Now how Charismatic is defined is also an issue. As I mentioned, and as I suspect, I think the inflated numbers the Charismatic movment has is that they count any mass with upbeat music as Charismatic. If that is the definition, while I may not like the liturgical music, as long as the mass is liturgically correct and theologicaly sound, no problem. When it goes from that to waving of hands, speaking in “tounges”, the order of the mass getting disrupted, then there are issues that need to be dealth with. Did I judge you Deacon? No I didnt, I did not condemn you, but many people have made comments many times worship based on emotion without any substance, burns itself out.

As for Eastren Catholics digital Deacon, I have no idea why you brought them up. The Eastren Catholics have not changed their liturgy other than its mostly in English now in the US, their worship is based on substance, based strongly on theology. The Eastren Churches do not allow what they would see Protestant “innovations” in their liturgy such as the Charismatic movment(even the Antiochan Orthodox have rejected teh changes to their liturgy despite a large number of Evangelical converts).

 

[Iohannes]

People who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass get little support and respect, I am talking indult here not schizmatics for those who have half-brains. The parish I went to had the Traditional Latin Mass revoked for no good reason.

No one respect our traditions at all, they are constantly spit upon by each aggorimento or however you spell in Italian.

Many are very hyprocritical when they are so ecumenical and nice to the Eastern Orthodox then spit on Traditionalist, why the Eastern Orthodox look down on these ecumenical types.

Lets leave the emotion and anger aside and think carefully:

The Charismatic movement is uncatholic, it came from pentacostalist movement in the early 1900.
Sometimes, but not all the time, these charismatic meetings have taken over as more important than Mass.

How is someone blabbing from his mouth and people barking like dogs and oinking like pigs suppose to be Catholic?

There is no Eastern Catholic equivalent to Charismaticism.

 

[JNB]

My opinion about Charismatic meetings is as long as they are not part of the mass, then they can do what they want. Again, I am not sure what the diocese of Orange is like, but when I lived previously in Sacramento and now where I live in Columbus, the Charismatic movment is fairly small, and while they have diocean contacts, their influence is small. I know many have said Hispanics prefer a Charismatic style worship, but it seems people who say that are white liberals who want to push that style of mass on Hispanics, since in Mexico, the typical mass is far more reverent than it is in the US.

 

[system]

Iohannes:

People who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass get little support and respect, I am talking indult here not schizmatics for those who have half-brains. The parish I went to had the Traditional Latin Mass revoked for no good reason.

No one respect our traditions at all, they are constantly spit upon by each aggorimento or however you spell in Italian.

And some of them seem to need to interject these remarks into completely unrelated discussions. Maybe that is a contributing factor to this perceived lack of respect?

 

[Iohannes]

Melman:

And some of them seem to need to interject these remarks into completely unrelated discussions. Maybe that is a contributing factor to this perceived lack of respect?

I was responding to this quote here.

Your condemnation of what the Church approves say that in your eyes I am less of a Catholic than you are. That your way is the only way. What about those Eastern Rite Catholics who’s worship of God is different than yours? Are they too emotional? Is their worship of God shallow and litte substance because they don’t match up to yours?

 

[gtrenewed]

I have experienced contemporary music liturgies where the musicians and singers were not Charismatic Catholics but simply liked that type of liturgy. Sometimes it seemed to me it was entertainment and it grated on me and my spirit was unsettled and at other times it was moving. During a truly Charismatic liturgy, there is order and it fosters a deep release of praise to our Lord that you have to experience to understand just as we have to experience communion to understand how bread and wine becomes our Lord. After receiving the blessing of the Charismatic renewal, I found that I as misunderstood in my family, even though it brought me deliverence from the bondage of addiction! Most protestants are against the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as well as many Catholics… and for what reason? Mostly, because imperfect beings show signs of excess at times. Even though we all are imperfect beings, Jesus nonetheless trusts us with spiritual blessings and gifts in many ways, regardless of whether we are Charismatic or not, that is why I enjoy being Catholic, our rich heritage and diverse giftings truly represents the infinite personality of the Father. There is only one way to the Father, Jesus, but there are many ways to Jesus as unique as our personalities. As we come together in the Mass let us remember He died for us all and if we all focus on Jesus we won’t be distracted by one another. If you are being called to the renewal I encourage you to embrace it and if not I encourage you to accept us as we accept you. There will always be debates on liturgy but we must always offer ourselves just as we are to Him in that liturgy and then we will have fulfilled our worship. God Bless

 

[misericordie]

:dancing: Why is it that many just don’t get it? To deny that in the Catholic Church in the USA the so called charismatic renewal’s masses, for the most part do not harbour a spirit of prayer and contemplation, but rather: noice:whacky: . Anyone who denied this, lay, or any form of ordained ministry simply is out of touch with reality. One problem in our church today is that many priests and bishops and others, simply are afraid to CORRECT and admonish certain catholic movements(groups) when these movements deviate, beacuse they do not want to offend and hurt feelings. Truth is not about feelings. Truth offends nothing nor no one, except what is contary to truth, namely falsehood. Fact is: NO WHERE IN THE VATICAN (NOT THE “SPIRIT” OF VATICAN II, BUT THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS) Council Documents (there are 16) does it mention the use of electric guitars, drums, etc. for use in Mass. On the contrary, it does say that Gregorian Chant, and the ORGAN is to be given importance. One charismatic mass I was invited to had: a whole battery drum set, in which rock and roll type christian music was played DURING the Mass. At the start of mass, the drums and electric guitars were playing full blast(I could not even hear the person NEXT to me who was telling me something) and the two priests came in to celebrate:dancing: the mass spinning and dancing to the beat all the way until they reached the altar. The “mass” continued all through, to the beat of drums, people raising their hands in the air, people holding hands when the Our F:ehh: ather was sung to the beat of drums, and ended with the drums beating louder and people dropping to the floor like leaves off a tree during the season of Fall.

     YET!  Some say  there is NO problem?  I think there is a serious problem when masses like this (the charismatics usually bring their own outside priests when it is a large gathering/praise mass) are celebrated.  
 Let's not forget what I wrote in my previously on this thread:  if a priest CORRECTS this liturgical abuse he is labled, judgemental, bad, mean, etc, and that is unjust, arrogant, and pride.  It is then that a Pastor MUST excercise his complete authority, and put a stop to this and all liturgical abuse.  Then of course, they will complain, lable him, and just maybe try to gather signatures against the priest to send to the bishop, in a display of un-Christain childish behavior of ME love, not God love.:nope: 
  To all Pastors who uphold truth, and don't fold in the face of liturgiacl abusers,  thank you for upholding (as Christ did: truth).:bowdown:

 

[pnewton]

Iohannes:

Charismaticism is an import from protestantism, why would anyone want to have something imported from protestantism.

Not everything the Holy Father does or say is guided by the Holy Ghost.

Being a protestant import myself, how about importing more protestants?

We are still bound to follow our Holy Father in obedience, not to second guess his decisions.

 

[Annunciata]

From DigitalDeacons post:
ROME, JUNE 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Profound friendship with Jesus Christ and a sure and strong sense of conversion are just two of the effects of the Holy Spirit, say charismatic renewal leaders.

The leaders of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal recently shared with ZENIT their personal experience of Pentecost. The ICCRS, headquartered in Vatican City, provides service, communication and linkage to this ecclesial reality whose spirituality is followed by more than 100 million Catholics.

At the vigil of Pentecost in St. Peter’s Basilica, on May 29, John Paul II sent special greetings to the Rinnovamento nello Spirito Santo, an Italian branch of the expression of Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The Pope said that “thanks to the charismatic movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life.”

To all of the above who disapprove of Charismatics,

If the Pope approves why is there a problem? I think many Charismatics would argue that the early church probably worshipped in a similar manner “Love fest” or something like that. They gathered to praise, sing and dance and eat! The Joy of the Lord is w/ the Renewal! Yes there are abuses, that’s why I moved on…probably it was time to. But I’ll never forget how much the Renewal’s influence had on introducing me to a deeper love and appreciation of The Holy Spirit! (Oh BTW, I do have a ‘prayer tongue’, that is, a private expression in my prayers that is between myself and God) I believe to speak it aloud in a group does need interpretation unless all are praising in song, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Prometheum_x]

I am part of a personal parish (not territorial) that is officially designated by the diocese as a charismatic parish – this parish was organized specifically for those with a charismatic spirituality. Any of the few modifications that we have (most of which involve Lifeteen – a topic for discussion in some other thread) have been implemented only with the permission of the Bishop.

Some have observed that “charismatic” often seems to refer to upbeat music rather than the use of the charismatic gifts. The word is commonly used that way. With that in mind, my parish is charismatic in both ways (while rare, it is entirely possible to be charismatic in the latter sense without having upbeat music).

Regarding electric guitars, drums, and other such instruments: While Vatican II doesn’t say that such instruments should be used, neither does it prohibit their use. Organ and Gregorian chant are preferred, but provision is made for other instruments that are suitable for sacred music. What is suitable for sacred music is somewhat a matter of cultural context. At one time the piano was explicitly prohibited, but that is no longer the case. What has changed? The piano used to be associated with the bar and theater: its primary context was a popular one, and a rather seedy one at that. That is no longer the case. While the piano is still used for popular music, so is the organ and I have heard chants used in New Age music. The use of organ and chant in popular music does not necessarily disqualify them and the same should apply to other musical instruments and expressions. If anyone feels there is some reason why a particular instrument is inappropriate for the Mass, please give a thorough explanation. If your reason is that it simply doesn’t seem right to you, it could simply be a matter of taste. That’s fine with me. Don’t try to turn your cultural tastes into something that is binding on everyone else.

Regarding the importation of protestant ideas: A common assumption is that “it’s a protestant thing” is a sufficient reason to regard something with disdain. Some protestants hold to such awful ideas as the Trinity and infant baptism. Some protestants even go so far as to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Gospel as missionaries in extremely anti-Christian places around the world. I would also remind you that God used a donkey to speak the word of the Lord to Baalam. You may regard protestans as donkeys, but God can still use them to speak proclaim his word.

Abuses due to the Charismatic Movement? Certainly, but abuses do not in of themselves prove a movement to be a bad thing. If that were the case, the greatest movement the world as ever seen – Christianity – would be a fraud too.

 

[condan]

Prometheum_x:

Regarding the importation of protestant ideas: A common assumption is that “it’s a protestant thing” is a sufficient reason to regard something with disdain. Some protestants hold to such awful ideas as the Trinity and infant baptism. Some protestants even go so far as to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Gospel as missionaries in extremely anti-Christian places around the world. I would also remind you that God used a donkey to speak the word of the Lord to Baalam. You may regard protestans as donkeys, but God can still use them to speak proclaim his word.

Abuses due to the Charismatic Movement? Certainly, but abuses do not in of themselves prove a movement to be a bad thing. If that were the case, the greatest movement the world as ever seen – Christianity – would be a fraud too.

My personal observations in my own parish are very much in line with the original poster. I do not believe, however, that what I see are true and authentic Charasmatic Catholics. I think they are more cafeteria Catholics who like the trappings of the Charasmatic movement like banjos, guitars, holding hands, mass-as-entertainment, etc.

With that said, many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do share a good portion of our beliefs. However, there are many core items where we do not agree. Sola fide is one. Sola scriptura is another. Those are big ticket items. A third is that they feel that each is allowed his own interpretation of scripture. The bottom line is that they broke with the one true faith. I think that is why many more traditionally minded Catholicsdon’t see the logic or value in the Charasmatic movement.

But that’s just me.

 

[TeAmo]

Prometheum_x:

Regarding electric guitars, drums, and other such instruments: While Vatican II doesn’t say that such instruments should be used, neither does it prohibit their use. Organ and Gregorian chant are preferred, but provision is made for other instruments that are suitable for sacred music. What is suitable for sacred music is somewhat a matter of cultural context. At one time the piano was explicitly prohibited, but that is no longer the case. What has changed? The piano used to be associated with the bar and theater: its primary context was a popular one, and a rather seedy one at that. That is no longer the case. While the piano is still used for popular music, so is the organ and I have heard chants used in New Age music. The use of organ and chant in popular music does not necessarily disqualify them and the same should apply to other musical instruments and expressions. If anyone feels there is some reason why a particular instrument is inappropriate for the Mass, please give a thorough explanation. If your reason is that it simply doesn’t seem right to you, it could simply be a matter of taste. That’s fine with me. Don’t try to turn your cultural tastes into something that is binding on everyone else.

.

I completely agree with what you’ve written- however, I also think that, arguing from what you’ve just said, a case can be made against the use of electric guitars. You used the example of the piano, saying that it had been banned because it was associated with the theatre and bars. What is the electric guitar currently associated with? The first thing that comes to my mind is rock concerts. That’s why I don’t think it’s appropriate to use them in mass, but I do agree with you that they’re not explicitly prohibited. And perhaps the appropriateness of using them will change over time, just as with the case with the piano. I guess it just comes down to the pastors to decide, using prudence to make a good judgement.

 

[tom.wineman]

**How do you determine at these charismatic services if the participants are full of ****the Holy Ghost or experiencing a self induced euphoria similar to the whirling dervish **in Turkey ?

 

[condan]

**How do you determine at these charismatic services if the participants are full of ****the Holy Ghost or experiencing a self induced euphoria similar to the whirling dervish **in Turkey ?

Good question! I once had Charasmatics pray over me in tongues. Not to be disrespectful, but I didn’t get anything out of it or feel any different. On the other hand, I have had a priest put his hand on me at a healing Mass and I am absolutely sure I felt the white light of the Holy Ghost. (It wasn’t one of these emotional things. Just a regular Mass, preceeded by the full 15 decades of the Rosary. After Mass, the priest put his hand on people’s head. An experience I will never forget!)

I heard recently on an EWTN daily Mass homily that the Holy Ghost will never lead one away from the Church so I am always sceptical when I hear about people “following their conscience” as they are “directed by the Holy Spirit” to some practice that is contrary to Sacred Tradition, i.e., contraception, female or married priests, etc.

 

[misericordie]

Well, I see some still don’t get it. It is actually sad:crying: that there is such a NEED by some catholics to digest and import protestant ideas or worse, mimic them. The One Holy Catholic Church as “Mater et Magistra” (Mother and Teacher) has the fullness of the truth. To dance to the beat of heretical protestant music, and say that all is beutiful and fine with protestant (usually the worse kind: pentecostals, evangelicals, baptists, etc: fundamentalists: strongly ANTI-Catholic) beliefes, is outright HERESY and the sin of Liberalism. If only some of these fundamentalist “churches” would think (for a change) that US CATHOLICS can contribute something to THEIR version of truth. However, NOT. They PREACH Catholics do the weird Sign of the Cross, pray to statues(some charismatics say the same thing, ) pray to Mary, that we are guilty of idolotry, that we are the great Babylon, that the Pope is the ANTI-Christ, that we INVENTED most of what we have, that the Catholic Church only came fronm the Emperor Constantine, etc, etc, etc,. Well, I belive any catholic who associates with any “church” which has and promotes that type of mentality really needs to examine his or her faith seriously. It would be great if the great document by Josef Cardinal Ratzinger could be studied. The document is entitled: DOMINUS IESU. “The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the truth.”:clapping: