CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

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Guitar, drums, whatever instruments. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s charismatic to me. If they change the liturgy at all, then they’re promoting abuse. That’s what I’m talking about. And, I do know what I’m talking about. I have canon law behind me.
 
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Annunciata:
Montanus actually claimed to be the Holy Spirit and that heresy was condemned by Pope Zephyrinus. (190AD)
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That sounds like a good heresy to condemn. . .hehe
 
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misericordie:
I hope you are not of the type that believes the “EARLY” Church was and is what the real catholic Church should be like. It would be as like saying that an adult should go back toi using diapers. It is God’s will: peter the rock, that their is what you call an INTSITUTIONALIZED CHURCH, In other words, order and not caos in structer. This is one thing Luther hated, and all protestants too.

As per St. Theresa, and all the others you mentiones: Low probability they were spinning on the floor and playing electric guitars in mass: especially when she is the founder of a CONTEMPLATIVE order. She did have quite EXTASCY moments, not yelling dancing or dancing merengue, as per many charismatics in Mass, or falling to the floor as leaves off a tree during the Fall season. as per "slayed in the spirit that is a pentecostal idea, which was NOT present during the First Pentecost with mary and the Apostles. I doubt mary spun on the floor, yelled, etc., etc.,:dancing:
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I have never spun around on the floor or yelled in the middle of mass. Please refer to elements of the Charismatic Renewal that are present in all groups and not just some wacky examples. I, as a Charismatic, also disagree with spinning around on the floor during mass. . .
 
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STJOMO:
Guitar, drums, whatever instruments. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s charismatic to me. If they change the liturgy at all, then they’re promoting abuse. That’s what I’m talking about. And, I do know what I’m talking about. I have canon law behind me.
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Please cite the canon which prohibits those instruments. Also, provide the year of whichever canon code you are citing.
 
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misericordie:
First, let me point out that I highly admire the Byzantine rite, and it is to be praised.

When I mention that things cannot GO back, I do not mean back, I mean BACK< BACK, BACK to the Apostolic times. In the Roman Church, it was not until the Coucil of Trent when many things were codified and defended. This was the golden age of the Church. However, when many mention the EARLY church, they are taliking about the church of Peter and Paul, and want to go back to this. It is AGAINST that mentality (the church was still in it’s toddler stage) I argue here. For example there are those who say that the best way to recieve communion is on the hand(what a total lack of ADORATION to Christ) because Jesus christ gave His Body and Blood to His Apostels during the last Supper. However, they FORGET one detail: BY Then, the Apostles were made PRIESTS (many don’t know the Apostles were ordained priests) and they had the right to touch the Body and Blood of Christ with their Priestly hands. That is why Holy Thursday is a day in which the church remembers the Institution of the Ministerial Priesthood: many priests will say on Holy Thursdays: today is our day(priests).
How much ignorance there is in those parishes for example, that have put those large round “baptismal fonts” that look more like a birdbath. When one asks the Pastor who put it, he will say: they did it in the early church. Well, in the early Church father, only ADULTS were baptized, and MANy at a time. hence once Infant baptism was introduced, you see the church matured, stopped consuming baby food, and grew in wisdom. When priests and others say: they did it in the EARLY Church, the best thing to respond woulod be: "well, and this is how the CATHOLIC Church now does it. Have many catholics just gone with Martin Luther’s Idea of “sola scriptora”? OR do we as CATHOLICS (we must: the Church teaches it) have Bible AND Tradition?😉
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You are the one who introduced the idea of “going back to the Early Church”. That really isn’t the argument behind the Charistmatic Renewal. To argue against that is really to engage in straw man tactics. Please address the relevant points and that arguments that actually characterize the movement.
 
If I remeber correctly it does not say infants, but it does say whole households were baptized. However, Luke’s account reads: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16). “She was baptized, with her household” (Acts 16:15) The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that “the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16). The present Catholic attitude accords perfectly with early Christian practices. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that “according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants” (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, “The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

The Eastern Catholics have never ceased to baptize infants. They were forced however by the Roman Bishops to stop infant communion which has now been restored. So when and infant is brougt forth, after it’s churching, the child receives the three Sacraments of Intiation: Baptism, Chrismation, and Eucharist. In some of the churches they have gone to full immersion as at St. Georges in Birminham, Al. Here are some pictures if you like to see the Baptismal Pool melkite.org/Baptism.html After which the child is then tonctured, as to make it’s first offering to God from the hair of his head. St. John Chrysostom in one of his homilies on Baptism, states that the soul yearns to be one with its creator and this cannot take place until Baptism. I was looking for the exact quote since I know we used it in one of my husband’s papers, it is an awesome quote. I did however come across this page which is good, it also has a real-audio with Rosalind Moss, it must be from one of the shows on EWTN. kensmen.com/catholic/baptism.html It reflects on the Protestant question of have you been born again.

From INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM

** Both in the East and in the West the practice of baptizing infants is considered a rule of immemorial tradition. Origen, and later St. Augustine, considered it a “tradition received from the Apostles.”[2] When the first direct evidence of infant Baptism appears in the second century, it is never presented as an innovation. St. Irenaeus, in particular, considers it a matter of course that the baptized should include “infants and small children” as well as adolescents, young adults and older people.[3] The oldest known ritual, describing at the start of the third century the Apostolic Tradition, contains the following rule: “First baptize the children. Those of them who can speak for themselves should do so. The parents or someone of their family should speak for the others.”[4] At a Synod of African Bishops, St. Cyprian stated that “God’s mercy and grace should not be refused to anyone born,” and the Synod, recalling that “all human beings” are “equal,” whatever be “their size or age,” declared it lawful to baptize children “by the second or third day after their birth.”[5] ** cin.org/docs/infbapt.html

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (2:39). We also read: “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I personally feel your statement of Baptism being for adults only is wrong.

Till later,
Pani Rose
 
Are we to return to the ways of the Early Church? I believe as Catholics we are falling short of the zeal of sharing Jesus, of living the way Christ asks of us, of letting him be our first love. It may take His taking our Church back to the early days in some way. God will do whatever it takes to keep his Church growing strong. But, in reality we are not who we need to be, otherwise we would not be closing churches.

I would say that this womans way of life must have been pretty primitive to us, yet it was in this century. Anne Marie Schimdt tells her account of life in her village which was totally Catholic, how it was totally normal for them to spend the majority of the day in church and prayer in tongues was the normal way of living. When she was left in the village the wolves took care of her, nursed her back to health, see her whole village was killed…I wish I had the whole story to tell you, but they were living in the fullness of living the faith of Christ and His Holy Spirit. Here is part of an explanation on her, looks like you can get the tapes. The Nazis came into her village, rounded up 25 villagers, and demanded that they renounce their Faith and accept Adolf Hitler as their only true saviour. When the villagers refused, they were taken out and shot. The next day, the soldiers came again, but this time they rounded up 50 villagers, again they insisted that they renounce their Faith, and, when the villagers refused, shot them all. The next day, the soldiers rounded up 75 villagers, and this time Anne Marie Schmidt was in the group. When the villagers refused to renounce the Faith, the Nazis shot again, but their bullets grazed Anne Marie. The soldiers decided to let her go, and she was spared. But there were far greater trials she had to face. This is the first time I have ever been able to find something on her on the internet, she speaks at a lot of conferences and down here at the Sister Servants of the Etrenal Word for retreats. christianart.com.au/prod316.htm

Bottom line again, God will do whatever it takes to wake us up, and if this is what it takes, He will do it.

I apologize I will go back to the topic at hand next time.

Pani Rose
 
One last thought on going back. See in the Eastern Church we celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and St. Basil the Great. But their Liturgy is actually that of St. James the Apostle written 2,000 years ago. Chrysostom and Basil just organized and added some to it in the third centurie. So…we don’t have to go back to what we had in the beginning, we are there. Though we do not celebrate St. James Lliturgy in the church all the time, basically because it is so antiquated that the Readers can’t keep up with it, it is celebrated in the monasteries somtimes on a daily basis.

Pani Rose
 
First, let me suggest my arguments should be read carefully here. I actually am arguing in FAVOR of Infant Baptism, in a REAL TRADITIONAL BAPTISMAL FONT, not one of those that look like a bath tub, bird bath(those so called Baptism Pools). Many seem to think that I am attacking the EASTERN-Rite Churches. NO!!! That is not who I am talking about here. Obviously, there are MANY differences between the Roman Catholic Rite(the West) and the EASTERN RITE. However, the EASTERN right has symbols and tradition which SHOULD!!! be also in the Roman Right, and which actually were. THE EASTERN Right does not have electric guitars, drums, etc. which is great. Why is it that these things are then tolerated in SOME Roman Right Churches: together with the spinning on the floor, the dropping to the floor like leaves on the fall season(when they claim the spirit enters them), or claim to have some privileged spiritual secrets which are only revealed to them (this is actually gnosticism).
As for those who favor electric guitars,drums, etc, you will find these are NOWHERE mentioned in the Vatican II Document which dealt with the liturgy. On the CONTRARY, the ORGAN and Gregorian chant (sacred Music) are to be given priority, as well as latin, and the organ as the OFFICIAL musical instrument for Mass. SEE: Sacrosanctum Concillium(on the Liturgy) of Vatican II(great document, I love it):clapping:
 
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misericordie:
As for those who favor electric guitars,drums, etc, you will find these are NOWHERE mentioned in the Vatican II Document which dealt with the liturgy. On the CONTRARY, the ORGAN and Gregorian chant (sacred Music) are to be given priority, as well as latin, and the organ as the OFFICIAL musical instrument for Mass. SEE: Sacrosanctum Concillium(on the Liturgy) of Vatican II(great document, I love it):clapping:
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OK, I enjoy the traditional Latin hymns as much as anyone (I only wish the men’s choir I belong to could sing more than one or two per Mass), but it’s a little ridiculous for you to say drums and electric guitars constitute “liturgical abuse” when the very document you are trying to use to back up your argument explicitly contradicts your assertions.

Here are just a couple of many passages from Sacrosanctum Concillium that make it clear that liturgical music should NOT always follow the same uniform style, but should be chosen with an eye toward cultural, as well as liturgical, appropriateness:

37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples’ way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things. But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

I’m sure you can make your own arguments about what’s appropriate for “the dignity of the temple,” but the specifics are left open to interpretation by the local ecclesiastical authorities. Just because you or I may not find electric guitars and drums particulary edifying does not mean that they have no place in the liturgy anywhere.

In fact, I bet many of the people who choose to attend the “Charismatic” Masses participate more fully than they otherwise would – precisely because it is culturally meaningful to them. And that is part of the richness of the Universal Church.
 
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naknek:
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40.
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Thank you for the quote. I had forgotten about that competent territorial authority part.
 
Can you give me a detailed explanation as to HOW drums, and electric guitars are “suitable, and edifying”? One question is, is the Mass a form of entertainment? Hips moving side to dide, yelling, hands in the air, people dropping to the floor like leaves off a tree during the Fall season, and other examples that happen at some parties, oops sorry, I mean Masses where the electric guitar etc. is used in hysteria has very little to do with what the vatican II Document meant. Some need to depart from the IDEA of the “spirit” of vatican II, to what the actual documents and Council fathers intended.

It would be great if the LATEST document out of the Vatican regarding liturgical abuses could be read as regards certain novelties.
As per myself, I would RUN out of a parish if I hear drums, electric guitars etc., and i would head towards a Catholic Parish.:tiphat:
 
As per myself, I would RUN out of a parish if I hear drums, electric guitars etc., and i would head towards a Catholic Parish.
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Electric guitars make a protestant church. And pipe organs make a catholic church. Understood. So it has nothing to do with proper orders or the Eucharist or the congregation or the alliegance to the Catholic Bishop and the Pope. Right. :rolleyes:
 
misericordie said:
:dancing: Why is it that many just don’t get it? To deny that in the Catholic Church in the USA the so called charismatic renewal’s masses, for the most part do not harbour a spirit of prayer and contemplation, but rather: noice:whacky: . Anyone who denied this, lay, or any form of ordained ministry simply is out of touch with reality. One problem in our church today is that many priests and bishops and others, simply are afraid to CORRECT and admonish certain catholic movements(groups) when these movements deviate, beacuse they do not want to offend and hurt feelings. Truth is not about feelings. Truth offends nothing nor no one, except what is contary to truth, namely falsehood. Fact is: NO WHERE IN THE VATICAN (NOT THE “SPIRIT” OF VATICAN II, BUT THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS) Council Documents (there are 16) does it mention the use of electric guitars, drums, etc. for use in Mass. On the contrary, it does say that Gregorian Chant, and the ORGAN is to be given importance. One charismatic mass I was invited to had: a whole battery drum set, in which rock and roll type christian music was played DURING the Mass. At the start of mass, the drums and electric guitars were playing full blast(I could not even hear the person NEXT to me who was telling me something) and the two priests came in to celebrate:dancing: the mass spinning and dancing to the beat all the way until they reached the altar. The “mass” continued all through, to the beat of drums, people raising their hands in the air, people holding hands when the Our F:ehh: ather was sung to the beat of drums, and ended with the drums beating louder and people dropping to the floor like leaves off a tree during the season of Fall.

YET! Some say there is NO problem? I think there is a serious problem when masses like this (the charismatics usually bring their own outside priests when it is a large gathering/praise mass) are celebrated.
Let’s not forget what I wrote in my previously on this thread: if a priest CORRECTS this liturgical abuse he is labled, judgemental, bad, mean, etc, and that is unjust, arrogant, and pride. It is then that a Pastor MUST excercise his complete authority, and put a stop to this and all liturgical abuse. Then of course, they will complain, lable him, and just maybe try to gather signatures against the priest to send to the bishop, in a display of un-Christain childish behavior of ME love, not God love.:nope:
To all Pastors who uphold truth, and don’t fold in the face of liturgiacl abusers, thank you for upholding (as Christ did: truth).:bowdown:
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I have to agree with your comments, I would run a mile sooner than be part of this, soon we’ll have the whole Philarmonic Orchestra at Mass, I wonder what band played at the last supper :hmmm:Can I bring my guitar and we’ll have a jam session ?
 
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misericordie:
Can you give me a detailed explanation as to HOW drums, and electric guitars are “suitable, and edifying”? … and i would head towards a Catholic Parish.
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I do not like drums or electric guitars used in Mass. But whether they are suitable is a prudential judgement to be made by the authority of that parish. Whether they edify is something individhual and I bet that someone edified or they probably wouldn’ t be used.

Finally, I was under the impression that the use of these instruments in a Mass implied that the parish was Catholic.
 
Charismatic Catholics are a growing lay apostolate within the Catholic Church, and most Charismatic Catholic groups are in total obedience to Rome, operating with the official approval of the Vatican and the Pope. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal presents no new doctrine. Instead, members emphasize the teachings of the Catholic Church and often focus on ecumenical outreach, as well as maintaining some amazing missionary movements. Charismatics have a calling to the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. Some charismatics function within their parish. Others, in addition to living out a faith life in their parishes, have formed covenant communities. For more info, go here.

catholicfraternity.net/
iccrs.org/

There are also many Charistmatic communities in the USA, not just in Europe. I believe the Catholic Charismatic Confraternity has upwards of 68 communities worldwide now. They meet in Rome every other year and often are blessed with a meeting with Our Holy Father, who has endorsed this movement. His personal chaplain, Fr. Cantamalessa, often preaches to the leaders of the Charismatic groups.

There are, of course, always nutcases who go off and do weird stuff and make a bad name for their groups, and charismatics have had their share of flakes. Yet 99% of the Charismatics I am acquainted with are considerably MORE orthodox and Catholic than your average Joe Catholic in the Pew. They often go to Daily Mass, participate in Eucharistic Adoration, protest at Abortion clinics, do loads of social justice outreaches, and have deep prayer lives.

I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community in Dallas. We (our community) go to Mass in our own parishes, and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. We are extremely active in living out our faith. We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, and the depths of our Faith in many ways . We also have a number of outreach ministries including a school which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools.” We are the only school which offers daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, etc. Here’s our Communty website:

www.lumen2000.com

Let us be charitable in our discussions here, and always remember that just because a certain lay apostolate does not appeal to you personally, that does not invalidate the apostolate for others. What the Pope has approved, I would be VERY cautious in condemning. 👍
 
I am not charismatic member but it’s a good movement. In Indonesia it has good support from the bishops. As long as it is controled by the priests it will not break the mass liturgy. It has made many youngsters become good catholic. about the music instrument, i personally agree with all kind of instrument.
 
Annunciata said:
(Oh BTW, I do have a ‘prayer tongue’, that is, a private expression in my prayers that is between myself and God) I believe to speak it aloud in a group does need interpretation unless all are praising in song, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong.🙂
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