CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

[Prometheum_x]

Well, I see some still don’t get it. It is actually sad:crying: that there is such a NEED by some catholics to digest and import protestant ideas or worse, mimic them. The One Holy Catholic Church as “Mater et Magistra” (Mother and Teacher) has the fullness of the truth. To dance to the beat of heretical protestant music, and say that all is beutiful and fine with protestant (usually the worse kind: pentecostals, evangelicals, baptists, etc: fundamentalists: strongly ANTI-Catholic) beliefes, is outright HERESY and the sin of Liberalism. If only some of these fundamentalist “churches” would think (for a change) that US CATHOLICS can contribute something to THEIR version of truth. However, NOT. They PREACH Catholics do the weird Sign of the Cross, pray to statues(some charismatics say the same thing, ) pray to Mary, that we are guilty of idolotry, that we are the great Babylon, that the Pope is the ANTI-Christ, that we INVENTED most of what we have, that the Catholic Church only came fronm the Emperor Constantine, etc, etc, etc,. Well, I belive any catholic who associates with any “church” which has and promotes that type of mentality really needs to examine his or her faith seriously. It would be great if the great document by Josef Cardinal Ratzinger could be studied. The document is entitled: DOMINUS IESU. “The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the truth.”:clapping:

The Catholic Church is Mother and Teacher and it contains the fulness of the truth. This is one of the reasons why I became Catholic. I moved from thinking that the claim to the fulness of the truth was somewhat arrogant to wholeheartedly believing it, and that is where I still remain.

That being said, the Church, while it will not teach what is false, is in no way prevented from failing to teach that truth in the best way possible. Nor does it fully understand the truth that has been entrusted to it, as evidenced by the Church gradually coming to understand the nature of Christ.

It is something of a strawman argument to paint all Charismatics as wanting to “dance to the beat of heretical protestant music” and saying “all is beautiful and fine with protestant beliefs”. I for one take no pleasure in trying to be as protestant as I can get away with, nor do I think that all is beautiful and fine with protestant beliefs. Not at all.

So, instead of making an emotional argument based on the existence of evil anti-Catholics, please mention specific things that have been imported from protestant circles and why they are bad.

 

[Prometheum_x]

condan:

My personal observations in my own parish are very much in line with the original poster. I do not believe, however, that what I see are true and authentic Charasmatic Catholics. I think they are more cafeteria Catholics who like the trappings of the Charasmatic movement like banjos, guitars, holding hands, mass-as-entertainment, etc.

With that said, many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do share a good portion of our beliefs. However, there are many core items where we do not agree. Sola fide is one. Sola scriptura is another. Those are big ticket items. A third is that they feel that each is allowed his own interpretation of scripture. The bottom line is that they broke with the one true faith. I think that is why many more traditionally minded Catholicsdon’t see the logic or value in the Charasmatic movement.

But that’s just me.

There are indeed many “Charismatic” Catholics who just like the trappings of the Charismatic movement. There are some for whom being “Charismatic” is just an excuse to do things however the heck they want to do them. For them, the mass becomes about them having “a good worship experience” rather than worshipping God.

 

[Prometheum_x]

TeAmo:

I completely agree with what you’ve written- however, I also think that, arguing from what you’ve just said, a case can be made against the use of electric guitars. You used the example of the piano, saying that it had been banned because it was associated with the theatre and bars. What is the electric guitar currently associated with? The first thing that comes to my mind is rock concerts. That’s why I don’t think it’s appropriate to use them in mass, but I do agree with you that they’re not explicitly prohibited. And perhaps the appropriateness of using them will change over time, just as with the case with the piano. I guess it just comes down to the pastors to decide, using prudence to make a good judgement.

You are absolutely right: a case can be made against the use of electric guitars, or at least against the use of electric guitars in a popular way. Just as there is a difference between playing a piece of sacred music on the piano and playing ragtime, there are different ways of using the electric guitar. Electric guitars can be used in a variety of ways, especially with the technology that we have today. At my parish, the electric guitar is never the primary instrument and it serves primarily to fill out the sound. It’s never used in a “let’s go moshing” style. The most important factor is how an instrument is used.

 

[Prometheum_x]

condan:

Good question! I once had Charasmatics pray over me in tongues. Not to be disrespectful, but I didn’t get anything out of it or feel any different. On the other hand, I have had a priest put his hand on me at a healing Mass and I am absolutely sure I felt the white light of the Holy Ghost. (It wasn’t one of these emotional things. Just a regular Mass, preceeded by the full 15 decades of the Rosary. After Mass, the priest put his hand on people’s head. An experience I will never forget!)

I heard recently on an EWTN daily Mass homily that the Holy Ghost will never lead one away from the Church so I am always sceptical when I hear about people “following their conscience” as they are “directed by the Holy Spirit” to some practice that is contrary to Sacred Tradition, i.e., contraception, female or married priests, etc.

I’m very glad that you were able to experience the Holy Spirit when the priest put his hand on you. However, what you are presenting is rather anecdotal evidence; it isn’t statistically significant. It does raise a question: How do we know whether the Holy Spirit is doing anything or not?

Many times, when God is doing wonderful and amazing things, we really don’t feel anything. But thanks be to God that the truth isn’t based on emotions or feelings! I may feel alone, or that God is doing nothing in my life, but that isn’t true. I’ve read stories about saints who went through very dry times in their life, or when I receive communion, I know that this is Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity, medicine for the soul, great spiritual nourishment – but I may not feel anything. My lack of feelings does not somehow cause Jesus to be any less present or to be working in my life any less.

How do we know whether it is the Holy Spirit or just some self-induced state? Well, one thing (not the only thing) to look for would be the fruit. If it is causing people to fall away from the faith, it’s a pretty bad thing. But if it is causing people to grow in the faith, it might very well be a good thing.

 

[Pani_Rose]

I have read you rancor and it is very sad, because most of you have no idea of what you are talking about. There were those who tried to share the truth with you about the renewal, but you were more interested in shouting them down, than listening and possibly learning something.

Here is an exerpt from the Popes address on the Eve of Pentecost 2004, if you notice he calls the Charismatic Renewal into the center of the church: ** 3. I greet in a special way the members of Renewal in the Spirit, one of the expressions of the great family of the Catholic Charismatic Movement. Thanks to the Charismatic Movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life. I desire that the spirituality of Pentecost be spread in the Church, as a renewed thrust of prayer, holiness, communion and proclamation.**

One of the fruits born by and part of what happens to most “Charismatics” is a great devotion to the Eucharist. As one of 25 years I know this to be true everywhere, and again the Pope refers to the movement brought about by the Charismatic Renewal: ** In this connection, I encourage the initiative called “Burning Bush,” promoted by Renewal in the Spirit. It is about incessant adoration, day and night, before the Most Holy Sacrament; an invitation to the faithful “to return to the Cenacle” so that, united in the contemplation of the Eucharistic mystery, they intercede for the full unity of Christians and the conversion of sinners. I sincerely desire that this initiative lead many to rediscover the gifts of the Spirit, which have their source in Pentecost. ** Here is the full address livingwatercommunity.com/Holy_Father/homily%20on%20eve%20of%20pentecost%20may%2030.htm

Jesus said you who are without sin may cast the first stone. You are casting an awful lot of stones and you deny the gifts of the Spirit you were given at Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation. The Church celebrated all of these gifts for it’s first eight centuries. Therefore, the Charismatic Renewal is not an import from Protestanitsm, but a continuation of what was always experienced by extrodinary saints like St. Mary of Egypt or St. Thresa of Availa, these gifts never left the Church. They were always there, just not used by everyone. Here is an address by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM, CAP 64.4.30.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=086f4eba97dbbccb8a90af0ac7e9b6ee&lat=1087460327&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2echristlife%2eorg%2fjesus%2farticles%2fC_jesusislord%2ehtml

And I am not saying there have not been abuses because there have. But the majority of those who term themselves “Charismatics” are very humble people, wanting to serve God and his body. I remember a talk given by the Pope to the first gathering of Charismatic leaders from around the world. After a series of events, he told them with tears in his eyes, “I came to teach you, but you have taught me.” Jesus said he was sending us a Spirit of Power, not timidity…all we have to do is say yes. Allow God to stir up in us those gifts given to us at Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmaiton when we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are there in each one of us, all we have to do is earnestly seek Him and He will reveal them to us. After all the Catholic Church is the largest Charismatic Church in the world.

One last thought. Pope Leo the XIII was praying for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. The night that the Holy Spirit fell on Assua Street was one of those nights that the Holy Pope sat quietly praying for this outpouring. So nothing is by accident!

Go with God!
Pani Rose

 

[pnewton]

Holy Mother Church has given some specific guidelines on how it’s liturgies are to be celebrated and an authority structure to enforce this. Within these limits is a big church. It is big enough for both Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses. It is big enough for English, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Latin languages. It is big enough for protestants converts and cradle Catholics, for the most solemn worshiper and the most vibrant charasmatic. It is big enough to reach the world for Christ. It is we who are sometimes small.

Those who do not like the Charismatic renewal are still required by Christ to love our brothers and sisters. They are not hysterical and they are not neo-Montanist. Montanism was a heresy and the Charismatic renewal has not been ruled a heresy.

Chartiy still must be the mark by which the world recognizes God in us.

 

[STJOMO]

Far be it from me to judge the souls and intent of others; there are certainly many ways to beat the devil.

I fall squarely into the traditionalist camp; I like it not at all when anything with a charismatic whiff makes it into a Mass that I’m attending.

But, let’s face it; as long as these folks leave the liturgy itself intact (that means, if I understand canon law correctly, leaving all text of the Mass as written) and they are inspired by it, so be it. If it’s good enough for the Holy Father, then it certainly is good enough for me.

The only caveat I’d add is that I’d keep charismatic liturgy in one place, if it must occur. Then, I can go to a more orthodox church and not be offended.

 

[Prometheum_x]

STJOMO:

Far be it from me to judge the souls and intent of others; there are certainly many ways to beat the devil.

I fall squarely into the traditionalist camp; I like it not at all when anything with a charismatic whiff makes it into a Mass that I’m attending.

But, let’s face it; as long as these folks leave the liturgy itself intact (that means, if I understand canon law correctly, leaving all text of the Mass as written) and they are inspired by it, so be it. If it’s good enough for the Holy Father, then it certainly is good enough for me.

The only caveat I’d add is that I’d keep charismatic liturgy in one place, if it must occur. Then, I can go to a more orthodox church and not be offended.

Charismatics should extend the same favor to traditionalists as they want the traditionalists to extend to them. No charismatic ought to try to impose charismaticism(?) on everyone else.

And, by the way, I am charismatic, if one couldn’t tell.

 

[darcee]

I know several members of the Charismatic Renewal that are rather traditional. Is this an oddity?

-D

 

[STJOMO]

Maybe I’m confused about what exactly “charismatic” means in this context. But my original point stands.

 

[darcee]

STJOMO:

Maybe I’m confused about what exactly “charismatic” means in this context. But my original point stands.

Isn’t that sort of like saying “I have no idea what I am talking about but I am still sure I am right.”?

:ehh:

-D

 

[misericordie]

:banghead: If anyone compares Saint Theresa of Avila to a Charismatic, I suggest they re-read the life of this great Doctor of the Church and MYSTIC!!

The Charismatic Renewal Movement in the United States was born in 1972 in California, then came to Penn.  where it was approved only CAUTIOUSLY by the US Bishops because (more so when it first began) of its protestant tendencies.  Which ones?   Well:  Pushing Marian devotion or prayers to Mary to the side, dislike of catholic saint statues,  an idea that everyone can interpret "the Word",  dispise of the Church hiararchy (Cardinals, Bishops: and their AUTHORITY) and the pentecostal and fundamentalist methods of worship, to the point where the mass becomes a party type of thing: electric guitars, drums, dancing in the aisles during the Mass, and other forms of entertainment.

Because there are nver new heresies, they just re-appear in different ways, the charismatics’ form of worship is very similar to the famous Montanist Heresy. What’s next, a re-surface of the Albigensian heresy?

 

[Pani_Rose]

One example for St. Teresa of Avila was this, that often, in the Catholic Charismatic meetings occurs a gift that is called “Resting in the Spirit” or “Slaying in the Spirit”… St. Therese of Avila used to call it “Flying in the Spirit”, and she had it many times as we read in her life.

As the church became more institutionalised, the gifts of the Spirit became less common and were seen only in the lives of the great “Saints’. Some, such as St Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) initially thought that they were meant only for the early Church, to “kick-start” her, so to speak. However, he later withdrew this opinion in his Retractions, when he himself witnessed the gifts in abundance in his own Diocese. It was apparent to him then that the gifts occurred where people had expectant faith. Later one sees the gifts in evidence in the lives of St Francis of Assisi (1182-1226), St Dominic (1170-1221), St Catherine of Sienna (1330-1380), St Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), St John Bosco (1815-1888), The Cure of Ars (St John Vianney – 1786-1859) and many others down the centuries. The Cure of Ars is known to have had the gift of tongues.

Interestingly, leading Catholic scholar Father George Montague S.M., former head of the Catholic Biblical Association, and leading Catholic ecumenical theologian, Father Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B., have published a major study whose findings are significant. It is entitled “Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit”, and is published by Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota (1991). They conclude that Baptism in the Spirit is in essence what Scripture and the Fathers of the Church for the first eight centuries of the Church’s life describe as integral to the experience of the Sacraments of Christian Initiation. From Carthage, Poitiers, Jerusalem, Caesarea, Constantinople to Antioch and Cyrrhus (in Syria) there are witnesses to the reception of the charisms within the rite of initiation …… accepting that Baptism in the Spirit is not joining a movement, but embracing the fullness of Christian initiation, which belongs to the Church.

Also:
Between 1895 and 1903, Sister (now Blessed) Elena Guerra, foundress of the Oblate Sisters of The Holy Spirit in Italy, wrote 12 confidential letters to Pope Leo XIII, asking that he foster devotion in the church to the Holy Spirit.

As a result, the Pope published his encyclical on the holy Spirit Divinum Illud Munus in l897. He also sent a private letter to all bishops, prescribing that the Novena for Pentecost be prayed at the dawn of the new (20th) century. God of Surprises

On the night of December 31st, 1900, a group of Methodists, led by Agnes Osman and Rev Charles Parham of Topeka, Kansas, experienced an unexpected outpouring of the Holy Spirit after studying the Acts of the Apostles. The request of Pope Leo XIII had received only a half-hearted response from the Catholic bishops, so God turned to his “little ones”, the “anawim”. Thus the modern-day Pentecostal movement began among Protestants.

Except for the first paragraph these paragraphs came from here if you would like to read the rest of their article it is very informative
catholic-jhb.org.za/tracts/renewal.htm

 

[Prometheum_x]

:banghead: If anyone compares Saint Theresa of Avila to a Charismatic, I suggest they re-read the life of this great Doctor of the Church and MYSTIC!!

The Charismatic Renewal Movement in the United States was born in 1972 in California, then came to Penn. where it was approved only CAUTIOUSLY by the US Bishops because (more so when it first began) of its protestant tendencies. Which ones? Well: Pushing Marian devotion or prayers to Mary to the side, dislike of catholic saint statues, an idea that everyone can interpret “the Word”, dispise of the Church hiararchy (Cardinals, Bishops: and their AUTHORITY) and the pentecostal and fundamentalist methods of worship, to the point where the mass becomes a party type of thing: electric guitars, drums, dancing in the aisles during the Mass, and other forms of entertainment.
Because there are nver new heresies, they just re-appear in different ways, the charismatics’ form of worship is very similar to the famous Montanist Heresy. What’s next, a re-surface of the Albigensian heresy?

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that the key element of the Montanist Heresy was not that had “charismatic experiences” but that they used these experiences as justification for listening neither to the Scriptures nor to the Church. They considered these experiences to have more authority. If any Charismatic group does the same thing, that that group should be denounced for the same reason. However, not all Charismatic groups share that similarity.

As I have mentioned before, I belong to a parish that is specifically designated by the diocese as a charismatic parish. Marian devotion is practiced and encouraged, there are statues of Mary, Joseph and infant Jesus, and a rather large crucifix right in the center of the church above the also centrally located tabernacle, a perpetual adoration chapel, and we submit to the authority of those above us, even when they make changes that we do not understand. Perhaps we are the only one like that, but still, that is how we are.

 

[Annunciata]

Prometheum_x:

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that the key element of the Montanist Heresy was not that had “charismatic experiences” but that they used these experiences as justification for listening neither to the Scriptures nor to the Church. They considered these experiences to have more authority. If any Charismatic group does the same thing, that that group should be denounced for the same reason. However, not all Charismatic groups share that similarity.

As I have mentioned before, I belong to a parish that is specifically designated by the diocese as a charismatic parish. Marian devotion is practiced and encouraged, there are statues of Mary, Joseph and infant Jesus, and a rather large crucifix right in the center of the church above the also centrally located tabernacle, a perpetual adoration chapel, and we submit to the authority of those above us, even when they make changes that we do not understand. Perhaps we are the only one like that, but still, that is how we are.

Montanus actually claimed to be the Holy Spirit and that heresy was condemned by Pope Zephyrinus. (190AD)

 

[jturnbull]

I think the Charismatic movement is an attempt by liberal Catholics to prostantize the Catholic Church!

 

[Pani_Rose]

Prometheum_x wrote:
** As I have mentioned before, I belong to a parish that is specifically designated by the diocese as a charismatic parish. Marian devotion is practiced and encouraged, there are statues of Mary, Joseph and infant Jesus, and a rather large crucifix right in the center of the church above the also centrally located tabernacle, a perpetual adoration chapel, and we submit to the authority of those above us, even when they make changes that we do not understand. Perhaps we are the only one like that, but still, that is how we are.**

This is the norm of the Charismatic Renewal. Growth in the Holy Spirit leads to obedience and understanding of the Gospel of Christ and his Church. We are drawn closer with zeal to the sacramental life of the church. The bottom line though in opening up to the Holy Spirit more (and this is why the darnkess of this world likes to keep everyone so upset and angry about it) is evangelization. The Holy Spirit changes us, he makes us a new creation, just like he did with the apsotles and deciples at Pentecost. We become very hungry for more and more of Jesus, unfortunately with some the zeal gets out of hand. It is said that someone who receives the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” should be locked up for two years. The reason is their life changes so much and it takes time for them to mature in the Spirit so that people can see the changes take place in them. Then they can truly testify to what God has done in their lives.

However, it is important as Catholics to understand that as the Sacramental Church, we are given all of these gifts at Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation. They are there, we have to say yes. It is like the glass of milk with choclate syrup in the bottom, it has to be stirred to become choclate milk. As Christians we have to say Come Holy Spirit and mean it, if we are sincere he will engage us. As adults we have to make a decision for Christ, and our yes must mean yes. We can no longer straddle the fence.

If an individual is teaching, singing or leading music, Eucharitic Minister, any service to Christ and his body in some way we are using the charisms of the Holy Spirit. For no one is good except God, and we can do nothing good without his assistance. He gives us that assistance through his awesome Holy Spirit. Christ said I must go so the Paraclete can come. He also said he will empower you from on high, and you will do greater things than I.

This is why the darkness of this world has people so stirred up against the charisms of the Holy Spirit. When one is empowered from on high, he can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

Pani Rose

 

[misericordie]

I hope you are not of the type that believes the “EARLY” Church was and is what the real catholic Church should be like. It would be as like saying that an adult should go back toi using diapers. It is God’s will: peter the rock, that their is what you call an INTSITUTIONALIZED CHURCH, In other words, order and not caos in structer. This is one thing Luther hated, and all protestants too.
As per St. Theresa, and all the others you mentiones: Low probability they were spinning on the floor and playing electric guitars in mass: especially when she is the founder of a CONTEMPLATIVE order. She did have quite EXTASCY moments, not yelling dancing or dancing merengue, as per many charismatics in Mass, or falling to the floor as leaves off a tree during the Fall season. as per "slayed in the spirit that is a pentecostal idea, which was NOT present during the First Pentecost with mary and the Apostles. I doubt mary spun on the floor, yelled, etc., etc.,:dancing:

 

[Pani_Rose]

Actually, I am Eastern Catholic. In the Byzantine Churches we do not have any instruments, including pianos or organs. The Divine Liturgy is done accapella (sp). The congreation sings from the heart and everyone sings.

Vatican II and Pope John Paul II have made it clear that we are to restore our litugy to it’s fullest. We celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great. But, theirs is the Liturgy of Stl James the Apostle, all they did was give it order and additional prayers. So technically we are celebrating a liturgy that was writeen 2,000 years ago by an apostle.

So do I think things can be as they were. Church has grown and developed, but usually in greater richness.

 

[misericordie]

First, let me point out that I highly admire the Byzantine rite, and it is to be praised.

When I mention that things cannot GO back, I do not mean back, I mean BACK< BACK, BACK to the Apostolic times.  In the Roman Church, it was not until the Coucil of Trent when many things were codified and defended.  This was the golden age of the Church.  However, when many mention the EARLY church, they are taliking about the church of Peter and Paul, and want to go back to this.  It is AGAINST that mentality (the church was still in it's toddler stage) I argue here.  For example there are those who say that the best way to recieve communion is on the hand(what a total lack of ADORATION to Christ) because Jesus christ gave His Body and Blood to His Apostels during the last Supper.  However, they FORGET one detail:  BY Then, the Apostles were made PRIESTS (many don't know the Apostles were ordained priests) and they had the right to touch the Body and Blood of Christ with their Priestly hands.   That is why Holy Thursday is a day in which the church remembers the Institution of the Ministerial Priesthood: many priests will say on Holy Thursdays: today is our day(priests).    
   How much ignorance there is in those parishes for example, that have  put  those large round "baptismal fonts"  that look more like a birdbath.  When one asks the Pastor who put it, he will say: they did it in the early church.  Well, in the early Church father, only ADULTS were baptized, and MANy at a time.  hence once Infant baptism was introduced, you see the church matured, stopped consuming baby food, and grew in wisdom.  When priests and others say: they did it in the EARLY Church, the best thing to respond woulod be: "well, and this is how the CATHOLIC Church now does it.  Have many catholics just gone with Martin Luther's Idea of "sola scriptora"?  OR do we as CATHOLICS (we must: the Church teaches it) have Bible AND Tradition?;)