Charismatic Mass

[Balance]

doesn’t “G” stand for “general”? that gives you a bit of an idea about how it should be read.

and yes, that leaves things open for abuse. that’s the way our faith is - open. that’s the way God is. that’s what free will is.

 

[netmilsmom]

Balance:

and yes, that leaves things open for abuse. that’s the way our faith is - open. that’s the way God is. that’s what free will is.

Thank God the Cafeteria is closed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Balance:

doesn’t “G” stand for “general”? that gives you a bit of an idea about how it should be read.

and yes, that leaves things open for abuse. that’s the way our faith is - open. that’s the way God is. that’s what free will is.

Yes, and then there are specific rules for each National Conference. It is not general in that you decide what is good and what isn’t.

It is not for you to decide. It is the Church and it does so though the GIRM and the norms layed out by the National Conferences and approved by the Vatican.

The Liturgy of the Church is owned by the Church, not specific movements within the Church. The Liturgy should be uniform in the Church and not tinkered with by the movements to be what whey want.

Abuse is abuse is abuse.

 

[swnunley]

TeAmo:

Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that’s largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into “extended praise;” i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I’m uncomfortable with this and suspect that it’s not allowed.

As a teenager back in the late 70’s/early 80’s, I was involved with a very large Charismatic prayer community in central NJ. There was a large youth community with over 100 members itself.

Anyway, every week we would have a charismatic Mass, where the gifts of the Holy Spirit would be manifested during certain points of the Mass, there was very lively music, and after the consecration we would all come up around the altar.

Some of this, I discovered years later, was indeed liturgical abuse. Everyone’s hearts were in the right place, but it was abuse nonetheless. You have to go by what the GIRM says for the conduct of the Mass, and you can’t add to it. Plain and simple. That’s hard for a lot Catholics to swallow, but “them’s tha rules”.

Much of what you may see in a charismatic Mass that is abusive is done out of ignorance, not malice. So if you see it happening, just grin and bear it until you can talk to the pastor. Also, charismatics should not manifest the gifts unless it is a specifically designated charismatic Mass, and only within the bounds of what the GIRM allows. Otherwise you risk scandalizing the non-charismatics, and worse, disrupting the Mass.

I do have to make the caveate that if it were not for the Charismatic movement, I would not have my faith in God and His Church that I have today. I have known many young people who responded positively to it, who would not have ordinarily been attracted to religion otherwise. More importantly, Holy Papa John Paul the Great had given his blessing to the movement. I think that counts for something, don’t you?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

swnunley:

I do have to make the caveate that if it were not for the Charismatic movement, I would not have my faith in God and His Church that I have today. I have known many young people who responded positively to it, who would not have ordinarily been attracted to religion otherwise. More importantly, Holy Papa John Paul the Great had given his blessing to the movement. I think that counts for something, don’t you?

Two things…

While Pope John Paul II gave his blessing to the Charismatic Movement, he also gave his blessings to other movements. These other movements, as of late, have been ordered to conform to the Liturgy of the Church, to stop their liturgical abuses. Support of a group does not mean that he supported liturgical abuses.

While it is great that you can trace your believe back to this movement, as can others, that does not make the movement right. In my case, it was the New Age that lead me to Christ. So if I use the logic then the New Age movement is a good thing. It isn’t.

 

[anna1978]

Also, a lot of movements STARTED OUT with the right intentions, but degenerated into abuse 10, 20, 30 years down the line…JPII couldn’t have known that…he wasn’t clairvoyant.

Anna x

 

[swnunley]

ByzCath:

Two things…

While Pope John Paul II gave his blessing to the Charismatic Movement, he also gave his blessings to other movements. These other movements, as of late, have been ordered to conform to the Liturgy of the Church, to stop their liturgical abuses. Support of a group does not mean that he supported liturgical abuses.

While it is great that you can trace your believe back to this movement, as can others, that does not make the movement right. In my case, it was the New Age that lead me to Christ. So if I use the logic then the New Age movement is a good thing. It isn’t.

First, I never said that the Pope’s approval of the charismatic movement meant he supported liturgical abuse. I even stated myself that some of what they did was abuse, and it was wrong. Your putting words in my mouth, and I don’t care for it.

Second, I don’t understand why you feel it is necessary to attack my journey of faith. Your opinion that it isn’t right is just that - an opinion. Furthermore, no matter what YOU may think of it, the charismatic movement IS aproved by the Church, New Age is not. That’s up to the bishops, not us.

Case in point, charismatic youth conferences have been held for over 30 years at one of the most prestigious and orthodox Catholic universities in the country, the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Your line of logic isn’t, nor are you being charitable.

 

[netmilsmom]

swnunley:

Case in point, charismatic youth conferences have been held for over 30 years at one of the most prestigious and orthodox Catholic universities in the country, the Franciscan University of Steubenville.

And is dying there.

Many things have been done for a long time, that does not make it mainstream. Beside that, 30 years is a blip in the history of the Catholic Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

swnunley:

First, I never said that the Pope’s approval of the charismatic movement meant he supported liturgical abuse. I even stated myself that some of what they did was abuse, and it was wrong. Your putting words in my mouth, and I don’t care for it.

Second, I don’t understand why you feel it is necessary to attack my journey of faith. Your opinion that it isn’t right is just that - an opinion. Furthermore, no matter what YOU may think of it, the charismatic movement IS aproved by the Church, New Age is not. That’s up to the bishops, not us.

Case in point, charismatic youth conferences have been held for over 30 years at one of the most prestigious and orthodox Catholic universities in the country, the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Your line of logic isn’t, nor are you being charitable.

I do not see how I am being uncharitable when I point out the fact that what leads us to Christ is not always good for others or good in its own right. That is a fact.

As for the charismatic movement being approved by the Church, yes it is up to the bishops, but I do not have to agree nor do I have to follow with it.

 

[totustuusmaria]

HOFseminarian:

I go to a univeristy that is overwhelmingly Charismatic, personaly I believe that the Charismatics are wrong. I just want to know, are they there for exercise and entertainment, or are they there for the real purpose ?

A Hearts of Fire seminarian. Very interesting. I didn’t know that there were any prodominately Charismatic Universities. I attend Franciscan University of Steubenville, and I can assure you that the Charismatics on Campus are a minority here. They may have once been a majority, but not anymore.

As far as whether an extended Great Amen is permissible, I don’t think it is forbidden, but generally I don’t think it’s a good time for expressive praise. I think it is better to have it during an extended gloria. The Great Amen should be a more solemn event, IMHO.

 

[swnunley]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And is dying there.

Many things have been done for a long time, that does not make it mainstream. Beside that, 30 years is a blip in the history of the Catholic Church.

I never said it was mainstream. The charismatic movement is certainly not. I just said it was there. Why do people twist other’s words? I just don’t get it. Especially from other Catholics.

 

[totustuusmaria]

And is dying there.

Many things have been done for a long time, that does not make it mainstream. Beside that, 30 years is a blip in the history of the Catholic Church.

But all the elements of the Charismatic Renewal with the major exception of the guitar (which is only peripheral to the renewal anyway) can be found in various places throughout the history of the Church. The Charismatic Renewal was a new combination of older phenomena.

 

[swnunley]

swnunley:

Anyway, every week we would have a charismatic Mass, where the gifts of the Holy Spirit would be manifested during certain points of the Mass, there was very lively music, and after the consecration we would all come up around the altar.

Some of this, I discovered years later, was indeed liturgical abuse. Everyone’s hearts were in the right place, but it was abuse nonetheless. You have to go by what the GIRM says for the conduct of the Mass, and you can’t add to it. Plain and simple. That’s hard for a lot Catholics to swallow, but “them’s tha rules”.

Much of what you may see in a charismatic Mass that is abusive is done out of ignorance, not malice. So if you see it happening, just grin and bear it until you can talk to the pastor. Also, charismatics should not manifest the gifts unless it is a specifically designated charismatic Mass, and only within the bounds of what the GIRM allows. Otherwise you risk scandalizing the non-charismatics, and worse, disrupting the Mass.

Hey ByzCath, netmil(name removed by moderator), and anyone else who cares…

Please reread my original post on this topic. I have included the main portion of it above for your convenience. Your replies indicate you may have missed the main point I was trying to make. I never said it was mainstream, that we are all bound dogmatically to it, that those involved did everything the way they were supposed to, that it will last forever, or that it even has the same strength that it did 20 years ago. I just included a little bit of my own personal experience, which was positive. I thought it would be nice, but now I’m sorry I shared.

Your comments were all irrelevant to my post, off the topic, and I felt were negatively directed at me personally. If I said something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, I would expect to be corrected, and told where I was wrong. But instead, I was blasted with personal opinions, where I said nothing contrary to Church teachings. I just don’t get it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

swnunley:

Your comments were all irrelevant to my post, off the topic, and I felt were negatively directed at me personally. If I said something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, I would expect to be corrected, and told where I was wrong. But instead, I was blasted with personal opinions, where I said nothing contrary to Church teachings. I just don’t get it.

I happen to disagree, I think our comments were on topic and relevant.

There really is no such thing as a “charismatic Mass”. There is only the Mass. There are not different rules, there is only the GIRM. What can not be done at a “regular” Sunday Mass can not be done at any other Mass.

The arguement that “we didn’t know” and “we meant well” can be a mitigating factor but still does not make it right. I know of no where in the GIRM that would allow for the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” to be manifested.

Now you do admit that these are abuses and you are trying to change that, or maybe have change it, but is seems some in this thread are supporting those abuses and saying that they are good and not abuses. I have heard of this going on in a lot of places. Seems the “movement” is a bit scattered and each group does it’s own thing.

For me, from my experience with the charismatic movements, it seems to be exclusionary. If you don’t have any “gifts” you are treated different, like a second class christian. It seems to get very clickish.

 

[Podo2005]

TeAmo:

Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that’s largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into “extended praise;” i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I’m uncomfortable with this and suspect that it’s not allowed.

It happens, there is no reason to panic…lol

Podo

 

[Frank_Roman]

TeAmo:

I’m uncomfortable with this and suspect that it’s not allowed.

Whether or not its allowed (I doubt it is) is aside the point here. It makes you uncomftorable- its distracting- get away from it. I know Pope John Paul II endorsed the charismatic movment, but I have serious concerns about it, especially when it intrudes on the Mass, which should be solemn and quiet.

 

[palmas85]

ByzCath:

I happen to disagree, I think our comments were on topic and relevant.

There really is no such thing as a “charismatic Mass”. There is only the Mass. There are not different rules, there is only the GIRM. What can not be done at a “regular” Sunday Mass can not be done at any other Mass.

The arguement that “we didn’t know” and “we meant well” can be a mitigating factor but still does not make it right. I know of no where in the GIRM that would allow for the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” to be manifested.

Now you do admit that these are abuses and you are trying to change that, or maybe have change it, but is seems some in this thread are supporting those abuses and saying that they are good and not abuses. I have heard of this going on in a lot of places. Seems the “movement” is a bit scattered and each group does it’s own thing.

For me, from my experience with the charismatic movements, it seems to be exclusionary. If you don’t have any “gifts” you are treated different, like a second class christian. It seems to get very clickish.

Very good post. Right on target especially the last two parts about each group doing it’s own thing and the exclsivity of the groups. They are very exclusive and those who don’t properly demonstrate the gifts are definitely second class citizens.

 

[swnunley]

palmas85:

Very good post. Right on target especially the last two parts about each group doing it’s own thing and the exclsivity of the groups. They are very exclusive and those who don’t properly demonstrate the gifts are definitely second class citizens.

I was involved very deeply with the Charismatic movement for many years,with one of the largest groups in the country (Metuchen, NJ. Also, Fr. Groeschel, who grew up with my MIL in the Bronx, spoke there from time to time). We took great measures to make sure that anyone who visited us felt welcome, with an explanation of the gifts, and that not everyone manifested them outwardly. The group had a very strong leadership team, that coordinated with the Bishop (who also presided/attended from time to time). God gives everybody different gifts. If you encountered anything otherwise, they were not acting according to the Spirit, and the fault lies within the leadership, or more appropriately, the lack thereof. One of the mistakes charismatics make is they put too much emphasis on the gifts, when they should be properly focused on the sacraments.

I apologize if this is the treatment that you and any others encountered.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Just because individual Popes having given their blessing to groups does not make them holy, worthy of praise, or justify them. Certain modern pontifs have meet with moslems, pagans, and hereitics and have shared pray, broke bread, and blessed them. The road to hell is lined with the bones of bad bishops and Popes.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Frank Roman:

Whether or not its allowed (I doubt it is) is aside the point here. It makes you uncomftorable- its distracting- get away from it. I know Pope John Paul II endorsed the charismatic movment, but I have serious concerns about it, especially when it intrudes on the Mass, which should be solemn and quiet.

Quiet? Certainly, there are times when silence is to observed, but I am not aware of anything that calls for the Mass to have the general characteristic of being quiet.