charismatic movement

[AlanFromWichita]

Please, we need to keep this thread charitable or otherwise it will be banned here as it is in other forums. Is that what you want?

Excuse me, but I’m not the one who introduced hating to the thread. I only remarked on it and admitted that I’ve experienced that sort of imperfection as well.

Besides, you missed a vital correction I made. The person whom I was actually addressing in the post you quoted, discovered an inaccuracy and I’ve already posted a correction. You are taking me to task for saying something I’ve already rescinded and corrected.

And if we can’t discuss charismatic movement without snide remarks such as we hate this person exercising their form of prayer, or we have to let the haters take over the thread, then IMO we might as well ban the topic. Or at least close the thread, if we are not allowed to question the haters.

Edit: Excuse me: instead of “haters” I should have said, “those who experience hate,” since they blame charismatics rather than their own judgment – which they admit has no basis – for their uncomfortable feelings.

Alan

 

[grannymh]

There is no reason to stay with any charismatic group. The few good things that might come of it are more than counteracted by the real problems – like the fact that innumerable Catholic charismatics wind up leaving the Church or regarding the sacraments and the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit as sort of second rate things, for those who aren’t REALLY spiritual. It was started by Catholics who were going to a Protestant prayer group back in the 1960s. There aree Catholics who swear that being in the movement got them back to the sacraments and Our Lady . . . Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, in keeping with all Church tradition, always underscored that wishing for extraordinary gifts or, worse, making them the center of one’s spiritual life, was really a sign of spiritual pride, and that’s what I always discovered in encounters with charismatics, sadly.

You are correct that in the early years of the Renewal, some Catholics did leave the Church.

You are correct in that in the early years of the Renewal, a number of priests and bishops were very concerned.

What people today do not know is that a serious investigation took place.

As early as 1969, only two years after the Renewal started, the U.S. Bishops investigated the fledgling movement and the Committee on Doctrine wrote that “theologically the movement has legitimate reasons of existence. It has a strong biblical basis. It would be difficult to inhibit the working of the Spirit which manifested itself so abundantly in the early Church.”

Subsequent statements in 1975, 1984 and 1997 have been equally affirming.

---

Pope John Paul II has been an enthusiastic supporter of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. In 1979 soon after becoming Pope he said, “I am convinced that this movement is a sign of the Spirit’s action . . . a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.” He has met with the international leaders of the Renewal on a number of occasions, and regularly sends greetings to National and International Conferences on the Renewal.

The above is from this informative link.
nsc-chariscenter.org/AboutCCR/

This is my personal policy. I would like to answer any charitable question from the position that Catholics should have sufficient correct information in order to make an informed decision regarding their personal spiritual life.

This is not the place to go toe to toe.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This is my personal policy. I would like to answer any charitable question from the position that Catholics should have sufficient correct information in order to make an informed decision regarding their personal spiritual life.

And thank you so much. Your post was very informative.

This is not the place to go toe to toe.

Yes it is.

 

[grannymh]

Why would you think I want the thread banned?

Jim

I thought I was asking a question. Please accept my apology.

Ever since I landed on CAF, I have researched this Renewal as I read post after post. All it takes is one uncalled for comment to start an unnecessary battle. And the thread turns into a she said/he said exchange. A warning was needed.

Now that I have everyone’s attention…my toes are really ugly.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Now that I have everyone’s attention…

Yes’m?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I thought I was asking a question. Please accept my apology.

Ever since I landed on CAF, I have researched this Renewal as I read post after post. All it takes is one uncalled for comment to start an unnecessary battle. And the thread turns into a she said/he said exchange. A warning was needed.

Now that I have everyone’s attention…my toes are really ugly.

Tell me about it.

I’ve been doing Centering Prayer for over 30 years.

Ask me in a PM how discussions about that method of prayer have gone?

I fear even mentioning it.

Jim

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Tell me about it.

I’ve been doing Centering Prayer for over 30 years.

Ask me in a PM how discussions about that method of prayer have gone?

I fear even mentioning it.

Jim

LOL. I made the same connection and typed it into a post reply earlier, but I chickened out and deleted it. You’re right; it’s the same thing. Someone doesn’t approve of someone else’s religious behavior, and it’s Pearl Harbor. :takethat:

I like Richard Rohr’s email from yesterday entitled “Major Misplacement of Attention.” Here’s an excerpt:
The Christian tradition became so concerned with making Jesus into its
God, and making sure everybody believed that Jesus was God, that it
often ignored his very practical and clear teachings. (Has Christianity
been known for loving its enemies, or even building bridges of
understanding between peoples?) Instead, we made the important issues
abstract theological questions about the nature of God (which ask almost
nothing of us except argument). Much of our church life has been on that
level, and no one ever really “wins,” and so it goes on for
centuries. Churches divide and separate largely over nonessential Gospel
issues. “Who can pour the water, when, and what do they say?”

Alan

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Well, my honest assessment of protestant charismatic groups is that we tend to over emphasize the Gifts of the Spirit while forgetting about the Fruit of the Spirit.

Charismatic Christianity has come into some very brutal opposition over the past decade by mainline Evangelical “heresy hunters.” There were in fact many excesses in doctrine and practices that needed correction. What has resulted though, is many people have left the charismatic movement and rejoined “normal” churches. And many so called charismatic churches have adjusted their services to where they are no different than other Evangelical church services.

I’m not sure where all this is headed. But if the mistakes are being corrected, then I suppose it’s all worthwhile.

An evangelical heresy hunter is the textbook definition of hypocrisy/contradiction if ever I heard one lol

 

[fredmack2]

I was raised in Evangelical type churches but for years remember feeling like there was something missing. I hungered for more of God, but it seemed that all they had to offer was salvation. I would listen to the altar calls at the end of the services, and want to go forward to get saved all over again or to rededicate my life, but knew that wasn’t the problem.

Then I encountered Charismatic Christianity. I was a bit taken back by them speaking in tongues and laying hands on the sick, but inside my spirit gave a huge sigh of relief! This was the MORE I was looking for! 30+ years later and I still love it. I just can’t be happy with a regular type of church service. There is something very special about inviting the Holy Spirit to participate in the meetings, and actually making room for Him to operate both in the service and in our individual lives through the gifts of the Spirit.

Your still in touch with your evangelical past and the charismatic movement just makes it easier for you to be an evangelical whilst in the catholic church

 

[po18guy]

Well I meant that it is out of line with Christ’s Truth and being guided my individual persons/groups based on fallible people. Hence, it’s “not” a good thing lol I didn’t mean to be offensive but I didn’t want what I was getting at to be taken out of context, in the event that I was not clearly articulating what I was trying to say.

Let us go back in time just a bit. No one denies that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are very present and written about in the New Testament. Correct?

Fast forward to the 1960s. Tumult. Turmoil. Revolution. Upheaval. All sorts of Catholics leaving the Church for all sorts of reasons. Some went to Pentecostalism. Why? Could it just be that the Church was not currently offering what their spirits thirsted for, so they went elsewhere looking for it? Yes, that is possible.

Where do you think Pentecostals got their practice from? Scripture! Who produced that scripture? The early Catholic Church, whose members demonstrated the charisms!

The Catholic Church has never taught that the gifts ceased. Thus, they are still here, and needed now perhaps more than ever.

The Church has very heavily investigated the charismatic movement, to ensure that it is fully compatible with authentic Catholicism. They found that it certainly is, but they still retain authority over it. This is comforting - or should be.

Bottom line: I can tell you that, after a particular charismatic experience (baptism in the Holy Spirit), my faith came alive. I lost the fear of speaking of my faith. I began evangelizing. I was drawn to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. I was drawn to the Rosary. I was drawn to the Chaplet of divine Mercy. I was drawn to prayer. I was drawn to scripture. I began shedding tears at mass. I experienced miracles in prayer.

Please explain how this is a bad thing - especially since I consider you to be capable of much more by the Holy Spirit than I am.

Point: If the charismatic movement is not for you, don’t join it! But, those whose voices are the loudest against it are “generally” those who have the least (or zero) experience with it. Experience it and you will change your mind. I did.

 

[po18guy]

Your still in touch with your evangelical past and the charismatic movement just makes it easier for you to be an evangelical whilst in the catholic church

Fred, he’s NOT Catholic. He is a guest here. And, please let us remember that not everything in the protestant world is error. Some of it most certainly is, but the use of the charisms is a universal Christian practice - or should be.

 

[RB2]

The charismatic renewal is a bona fide, accepted movement. It falls under the control of your local Bishop’s office. For information, the preacher of the Papal household is a charismatic Franciscan. Here is a link to the national committee of the charismatic renewal. As well, here is a link to an explanation of what is known as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The movement, rather than moving toward protestantism, is reclaiming the genuine use of the charisms that we received at our Baptism and Confirmation. I would say that it is prudent for you to research this a bit, and ask some questions of your local group before proceeding. What I can tell you is that receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit (that is just a name, it is not a Sacrament) absolutely lit my faith on fire. Day and night difference. And, I have never uttered a single syllable in a tongue, as my gift is entirely different - yet each of our charisms is to be used for the building up of the Church.

I’ll add that the Charismatic Renewal/Movement is within the church an International Ecclesial Union, a label or designation within the Church. More specifically it is inculcated under the Vatican as the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS). All of the Popes since Vatican II have either spoken favorably or promoted it.

I can understand the heebee geebee’s that someone who is not familar with it , sense or seem to get from it. Thats understandable since I felt the same way before my involvement with it. But the movement is 100% inline and a respecter of Catholic Doctrine, the rubrics, et al. Additionally , the heebee geebees arise from lack of discernment and discernment on comes from experience. Until one gains experience in this area, experience with ‘words from god’ being spoken by another, then it is healthy to have doubts and some fear.

Although the movement or more specifically some of its participants may have some problems as does the wider or whole Church. Especially since one doesnt belong to the Charismatic Renewal as one does to a Religious or Lay Order. It is quite voluntary on the participant and through a local level parish prayer group with no formal enrollment involved
or required or suggested.

The Charismatic Movement mainly exists within local parishes within a Church’s established prayer groups. These prayer groups usually are associated with an umbrella group. For me in my area, the umbrella group is SCRC.org (Southern California Renewal Communities: Serving Catholic Charismatic Renewal in Los Angeles Archdiocese and wider Southern California).

A typical Charismatic Prayer Group at a local parish may be labeled ‘Charismatic’ or just labeled a ‘Prayer Group’. Typically one or more members who is gifted with ‘words from God’ or ‘prophecy’ or ‘Healing’, etc. will attend these. Although, I have been to some of these prayer groups where there are no members with any discernable gifts that are present. But the prayer/praise/worship being offered to God is important all the same.

Occasionally, there are ‘characters’ present who feel they are gifted either with ‘prophecy’ : ‘words from God’, ‘healing’ or otherwise, but actually have nothing. If its troublesome or worse(?), a person can go to another prayer group. Most of the time these characters are not entirely disruptive or problematic, but benign.

Some of these Charismatic Prayer Groups exist solely to help others with crises, personal problems, give words from God/prayer to people with problems…health/decisions/etc. Other groups primary focus is prayer/praise/worship to God through singing, and praying over those who want prayer. It is during the praying over others that the gifted members will usually relate ‘words from God’ for the one being prayed over.

 

[RB2]

Did anyone ever consider that the reason people are involved in the Charismatic Movement, because the Holy Spirit led them there?

God brought my wife and myself through the Charismatic movement, back in 1976. We grew very much from our experience there. When the time came, the Lord led us out and into contemplative life, eventually bringing us to the Secular Order of Discalced Caremelites.

People should be careful about criticizing the prayer life of others like those in the Charismatic Movement.

They’re seeking God with open hearts and devotion. Many are fare more open to Jesus Christ than their critics.

If God speaks to a person, who are you to say He didn’t ?

Jim

I was called to the Charismatic Movement.

I had been attending Healing Masses where priests prominent within the movement will perform ‘Healing Masses’. Some of the more gifted priests at the tail end of the mass will lay hands on you and give you ‘words of god’. Typically these ‘words from God’ will include your personal problems, may be verbatim what you wrote on your paper prayer slip before the Mass started for things to be prayed for, sometimes it is something personal that no one else but God could know. Anyhow, at one of these Masses during the homily, the priest started callling me out, describing me, didnt mention my name and mentioning that there ‘are no coincidences’.(calling me out: This is highly unusual) He was describing me specifically, there were about 40-60 people there. At best I could figure out was to attend the prayer group that had hosted, arranged and promoted that ‘Healing Mass’. And as it turned out, that was precisely it…

God was calling me to the Prayer Group at the church and has been directing and guiding me and preparing me into being a stronger Catholic and has told me some of the plans he has for using me in the future. In addition to a daily rosary habit I had before,after that experience, I have developed into frequent or near daily mass, and frequent or near daily blessed sacrament, and reading the Bible each morning and night daily for the last 3 years or more.

 

[Aussieman88]

It’s interesting to note that St Paul says in one of the epistles 'I thank God that I pray in tongues more than any of you…"

He sees it as a positive thing. also it was pointed out to me once that anytime in the bible after Acts 1;8. That anytime someone is described as being filled with the Spirit, they spoke in tongues. There’s more than 100 of them. That’s more than the number of miracles described. I had to re read acts with this thought in mind to count them I can’t remember now but there’s heaps. I’m not talking about someone who is healed. Of course they had the Holy Spirit come into them but only when it’s described as being filled.