Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

[friardchips]

I read in the Vatican documents that the charismatic renewal area of the Church formed from a number of small groups that became quite prevalent at some stage, and due to the phenomenom, the groups were recognized as being a part of the Church and able to contribute in some way.

The other areas in which the subject of ‘renewal’ is tackled, is via subjects such as baptism and the renewal of the promises made.

The only area in Scripture that I can see related to the Charismatic Renewal, is where we are told that if people are not against us then they are for us - to do with (non-exorcism) deliverance ministries - and so maybe there is a link there?

While I don’t go in for the ‘charismatic’ area of the Church, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is not there, in some way, while it is that I do not feel obligated to have an interest in it; that said, we also ought to make sure we do not go against the Church, in any way.

Is there a link between deliverance ministries and charismatic groups? Is one an offshoot of the other? I thought that the charismatic renewal movement might have come from the direction of ecumenism, whereby, we recognised attributes from Pentecostal and Evangelical churches - or at least, there appeared to be similaries. But I don’t know how that could be true because we are told that the Holy Spirit guides the Church and so surely it is by truth and not for any other reason that the Church proclaims something to be true, or false.

There are sometimes things introduced into the Church as normal that I sometimes have a gripe with, but I know that I cannot and would not oppose, because it might be a testing period e.g:- ‘welcoming’ before Mass and shaking hands after Mass with the priest - neither (I think), is particularly necessary, as they seem to encourage talking when entering a church and leaving very soon after Holy Communion (in that order). But these dislikes do not pit me against the Church because I believe that discernment allows us to like and dislike. On the other hand, we are not God, so who are we to say (maybe we just pray about it)?

Maybe this is a testing period, in that the Church can proclaim something to be worth investigation, without declaring it as official - not obligatory to believe in the meantime.

Is the charistmatic renewal a movement within the Church which requires our assent of faith?

From the charismatic group, angle, I would say not, to be clear. This is my position, and yet am not wishing to go against what the Church states officially, as being the work of the Holy Spirit.

From the position of it being a renewal of one’s baptismal promises, then why not, because, in this sense, renewal is simply an affirmation of one’s Catholic faith, although it is, that we renew these promises every Easter, anyway, and can also do this at any point.

 

[DebCWil]

What is important is members of the Charismatic Renewal submitted to the Holy See. It is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit recognized by every Pope since Pope Paul VI.
The charisms themselves are not new. They have been active within the Church since the very first Pentecost. The outward signs are not as important as what happens to a person inside.
Each of us has been given certain gifts by virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation. For many these gifts, these gifts have been set on a shelf, so to speak, and we are unaware of the power that we have.
An “assent of faith” is a good way of speaking about the Charismatic Renewal. It is one more step upon that journey of Faith that each of us takes in life. It is moving beyond the mere social aspects of simply receiving the Sacraments, but truly acknowledging with our hearts what they mean. It it becoming more open to the Spirit in our lives.
Am I willing to accept whatever gift the Father has to offer, even if I don’t understand it? Scripture tells us that God will give the Holy Spirit to anybody who asks for it.
As Catholics we already have the Holy Spirit by virtue of the Sacraments, through our Baptism and Confirmation. Are we willing to empowered by the Holy Spirit, to allow those gifts to be released for the greater glory of God and the upbuilding of the Church? .

 

[Rob2]

I read in the Vatican documents

Which Vatican documents , @friardchips ?

 

[friardchips]

Hi! Yes, the subject of ‘charismatic renewal’ and the word ‘renewal’ itself, can be found in the compiled Vatican II documents.

 

[Rob2]

Hi! Yes, the subject of ‘charismatic renewal’ and the word ‘renewal’ itself, can be found in the compiled Vatican II documents.

But there is nothing in the documents of the Second Council of the Vatican specifically about the Charismatic Renewal .

 

[friardchips]

Maybe it is the case then, that the documents are stating all the areas of faith as they stand, rather than being a collation of things that came in specifically with Vatican II. But certainly, the charismatic renewal is mentioned (maybe a better word), in the documents.

 

[Rob2]

Maybe it is the case then, that the documents are stating all the areas of faith as they stand, rather than being a collation of things that came in specifically with Vatican II. But certainly, the charismatic renewal is mentioned (maybe a better word), in the documents.

Why not just quote the words and name the document then ?

 

[friardchips]

Looking at the documents now, I thought I’d seen those two words together - ‘charismatic’ and ‘renewal’ - but cannot find them (will keep looking).

In the meantime, however, I have found, under ‘Evangelisation’, the term ‘charismatic’, in ‘Section 7 - the Synod of Bishops’. A difference is stated between charismatic groups that cannot be described as ‘ecclesial’ (only ‘sociological’), and those that can.

However, I think that the section referenced, is describing communities that are not strictly Catholic, in the sacramental sense.

 

[Rob2]

Looking at the documents now, I thought I’d seen those two words together - ‘charismatic’ and ‘renewal’ - but cannot find them (will keep looking).

If I were you I wouldn’t bother because you won’t find it .

 

[friardchips]

Hi, thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

What is important is members of the Charismatic Renewal submitted to the Holy See. It is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit recognized by every Pope since Pope Paul VI.

Do you have the documents or any links that mention those two words, together?

The charisms themselves are not new. They have been active within the Church since the very first Pentecost. The outward signs are not as important as what happens to a person inside.

So, we are talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then?

When you say, ‘…first Pentecost…’, what is it that you mean by ‘first’?

The Holy Spirit is within, but God did also say, that when two or more are gathered in His name, He’ll be there - what did He mean by that? Is He ever outside, so to speak, or rather, always within us all, both as a community and too, individually?

God did mention about not looking for signs, and so, maybe this is relevant. Yet, we are to accept signs, when given them, I think.

Each of us has been given certain gifts by virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation. For many these gifts, these gifts have been set on a shelf, so to speak, and we are unaware of the power that we have.

So, we are talking about ‘gifts’? When you say that we are not aware of them, how do you mean?

An “assent of faith” is a good way of speaking about the Charismatic Renewal. It is one more step upon that journey of Faith that each of us takes in life.

So, are you suggesting that the Charismatic Renewal is a step beyond one’s normal faith? Or do you mean that it is a…step in one or other direction that one can take?

It is moving beyond the mere social aspects of simply receiving the Sacraments, but truly acknowledging with our hearts what they mean. It it becoming more open to the Spirit in our lives.

I can see how thinking about the liturgy with more seriousness is a good idea for some Catholics who maybe forget why it is they are receiving who they are receiving, but not sure that many people receive Holy Communion as a mere social aspect. Do you mean that people ought to take greater care as to prioritising Holy Communion, as all-important, amongst other sacraments?

It it becoming more open to the Spirit in our lives.

What is - do you mean, the charismatic groups or simply researching the sacraments? I tend to think that prayer opens people to the Holy Spirit? Or rather, the Holy Spirit, opens us. Our participation is obviously important.

Am I willing to accept whatever gift the Father has to offer, even if I don’t understand it? Scripture tells us that God will give the Holy Spirit to anybody who asks for it.

Don’t you mean, that God will convert us, via the Holy Spirit, by way of grace, and that we can then ask for an increase in Wisdom and the virtues.

As Catholics we already have the Holy Spirit by virtue of the Sacraments, through our Baptism and Confirmation. Are we willing to empowered by the Holy Spirit, to allow those gifts to be released for the greater glory of God and the upbuilding of the Church? .

So, what are we supposed to be doing then, in order to make this happen?

 

[friardchips]

Just found this in the Evangelism area I previously mentioned:

'Section 7: The Synod of Bishops

Secondly, the deep desire to understand better the Spirit’s action and to entrust oneself to him more fully - at a time when “in the Church we are living an exceptionally favourable season of the Spirit”, as my predecessor Paul VI remarked in his Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi - must bring about a catechetical awakening. For “renewal in the Spirit” will be authentic and will have real fruitfulness in the Church, not so much according as it gives rise to extraordinary charisms, but according as it leads the greatest possible number of the faithful, as they travel their daily plans, to make a humble, patient and persevering effort to know the mystery of Christ better and better, and to bear witness to it.
I invoke on the catechizing Church this Spirit of the Father and the Son, and I beg him to renew catechetical dynamism in the Church.’

…this is a translated version (maybe interpreted - not sure) of the documents and so grammatical differences might be present in comparison to the original documents.

 

[po18guy]

So many misunderstand. So many mistrust. So many miss the most invigorating spiritual experience they will ever have.

The Church does not, and has never taught “cessationism” - in which the charisms of the Holy Spirit ceased at some point. Rather, she reaffirms that we are each given charisms according to the Holy will.

The so-called Charismatic Renewal is a re-focusing on the charisms and their use in edifying the Church. As rationalism rose, and in the post-enlightenment age, the past two centuries were not exactly a high-water mark for charismatic activity in the Church.

The renewal might be likened to Pope Saint John Paul II’s '“New Evangelization.” What was really new, except a re-invigoration of our foundational responsibility to proclaim the Gospel?

The Charismatic Renewal gives us a “how” to the New Evnagelization’s “what.”

It is not a protestant infusion or takeover, as many fear.

It is a re-claiming of what belonged to the Church since Acts 2.

I cannot find fault with that.

 

[friardchips]

Thank you. So, alongside the New Evangelisation, the Charismatic Renewal is a kind of ‘reinvigoration’ of our understanding and (hopefully) disposition towards the supernatural aspects of our faith, in the face of an overly temporal, and possibly worldly, focus?

 

[friardchips]

What I don’t understand here, is the word ‘reclaiming’; ‘reaffirming’ makes more sense. I don’t see that there was any kind of lapse. Over the last few hundred years, including throughout the ages you have spoken of, there have been many saints. It is within the last so many decades that a kind of worldly focus has kicked in. And…no, I am not a Vatican II denier. More due, I think, to Modernism, than anything else. But to say, that any worldly focus is not that of the true Church, so no biggy.

 

[DebCWil]

The First Pentecost is the Birth of the Christian Church. It is when the Apostles met in the Upper Room and were filled with the Holy Spirit as it descended upon them.
No, you will not find mention of the Charismatic Renewal in Vatican II Documents. The Renewal, as such began in 1967.
That however does not mean that the gifts have not been present throughout the history of Church. Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit. They include gifts of tongues (the most common) as well as prophecy, and healing. As you read biographies of the Saints, you will read about Saints who healed. You will read about those who special gifts when it came to preaching, and zeal. Zeal is especially prevalent among those who are priests as a gift that comes with Holy Orders. Some have the gift of knowledge, and can read the hearts of men, such as St. John Vianney.
You will find mention of the Charismatic Renewal, as well as other movements of the Holy Spirit in United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults.

Our Faith journey should be a continuous journey of conversion, a continuous turning toward God. Through Baptism, we have been reborn through water and Spirit. We are a part of God’s people. Yes, Friarchips, you do have the right idea of making a greater commitment. What God asks of us is our heart, a response to the Love He has shown us in the Sacrifice of the Cross.

It’s not simply a matter of researching the Sacraments. It’s not a matter of the head, so much as a matter of the heart. When I became a part of the Charismatic Renewal, I didn’t know what it was. I was merely responding to God’s call on my life. I was already intellectually familiar with Church teachings. It’s one thing to state these are my priorities in life. It’s another to face a life crisis and make actual decisions based on those priorities.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. St. John says the person who says he has never sinned is a liar and the truth is not to be found in him. As Catholics we have recourse to Sacrament of Reconciliation. We know our dependence on God. The first thing is acknowledging this dependence.
Next is asking God to come more fully into our lives. This can be the difficult part. It involves surrendering our lives to God, and to His Will.
Jesus said, “It is not the one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the Will of the Father.”

Everything is a matter of grace. Apart from God I can do nothing. Christ also said, “I am the vine and you are the branches…With God all thing are possible.”
As God becomes more important in a person’s life, the Sacraments become more vibrant. The Eucharist is indeed the Source and Summit of our Faith.

For many people, hunger for the Sacraments increases as a result of their involvement in the Charismatic Renewal.
I am going to share link I found on YouTube about a priest encounter with the Charismatic Renewal and how it affected his prayer life.

 

[po18guy]

Yes! Examine modernism and the historical-critical method of de-constructing/re-constructing the faith. They have intentionally drained the supernatural out of the faith. What is left? An edifying story and an exodus from the faith. Unacceptable!

Certainly, there is a spiritual element behind all of this. I do not see it as the Holy Spirit.

I do see the Holy Spirit present and very active in the renewal of the charisms.

 

[friardchips]

Hi again.

The First Pentecost is the Birth of the Christian Church.

The Church was born in Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. This is stipulated in an encyclical.

It is when the Apostles met in the Upper Room and were filled with the Holy Spirit as it descended upon them.

This was the annointing of the Church as a community.

No, you will not find mention of the Charismatic Renewal in Vatican II Documents. The Renewal, as such began in 1967.

I will continue to look, still. That said, in a previous post, there were words written, eluding to it, seemingly. Also, the words ‘charism’, ‘charismatic’ and ‘renewal’ are mentioned in various places. Just because the movement began in 1967, does not mean that it did not stem from previously discussed areas of faith.

That however does not mean that the gifts have not been present throughout the history of Church.

Right. Agreed.

Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit. They include gifts of tongues (the most common) as well as prophecy, and healing.

Not sure the gifts of tongues are the most frequently brought about. Prophecy is. Because every Catholic is a kind of prophet for we give witness to Heaven. St. Paul mentioned that the gift of tongues is not as important as some gifts but if this gift is practiced, then there needs to be an interpretor, present. There are also other gifts.

As you read biographies of the Saints, you will read about Saints who healed.

Did these saints implore the spirit, in any particular way, or were they simply discerning people who took their faith seriously, and trusted that the Holy Spirit would act in their lives?

 

[friardchips]

…(reply part 2):

You will read about those who special gifts when it came to preaching, and zeal. Zeal is especially prevalent among those who are priests as a gift that comes with Holy Orders. Some have the gift of knowledge, and can read the hearts of men, such as St. John Vianney.

I see. Well this explanation, I understand as simply: the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Different to that of contemporary charismatic communities. So, the Charismatic Renewal then, is not centred on the charismatic communities, but rather, reminding us, as another poster said, of the supernatural elements of our faith, that is rooted in Scripture, in order to ‘build up the Church’.

You will find mention of the Charismatic Renewal, as well as other movements of the Holy Spirit in United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults.

Yes, I am sure the Catechism speaks of it. I tend to think that the Renewal is sometimes taken out of its Catholic (non-catechical) context.

Our Faith journey should be a continuous journey of conversion, a continuous turning toward God. Through Baptism, we have been reborn through water and Spirit. We are a part of God’s people. Yes, Friarchips, you do have the right idea of making a greater commitment.

friard. I don’t know about the continuous conversion angle. I tend to think that people are converted once. Certainly, for other-denominational Christians, the conversion might then be to the Catholic Church, but when in the Church, if one is not inspired, and then is inspired, I would take that to mean, that the person has been opened up to grace in greater fullness. We are converted, or we are not. We can, however, arrive at greater knowledge of our faith, and what God holds in store for us.

What God asks of us is our heart, a response to the Love He has shown us in the Sacrifice of the Cross.

Gratitude.

It’s not simply a matter of researching the Sacraments. It’s not a matter of the head, so much as a matter of the heart. When I became a part of the Charismatic Renewal, I didn’t know what it was. I was merely responding to God’s call on my life. I was already intellectually familiar with Church teachings. It’s one thing to state these are my priorities in life. It’s another to face a life crisis and make actual decisions based on those priorities.

The heart and mind ought to be one. Grace brings with it, knowledge. Our duty is to wisely respond to God’s call. Context being very important. The context, and one’s life, go hand-in-hand.

 

[friardchips]

reply 3:

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. St. John says the person who says he has never sinned is a liar and the truth is not to be found in him. As Catholics we have recourse to Sacrament of Reconciliation. We know our dependence on God. The first thing is acknowledging this dependence.

Our Lady, and Jesus, Himself, did not sin, of course. But yes, all other people are sinful. Definitely, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a priority,

Next is asking God to come more fully into our lives. This can be the difficult part. It involves surrendering our lives to God, and to His Will.

Prayer.

Jesus said, “It is not the one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the Will of the Father.”

Sure, and we must also keep knocking.

Everything is a matter of grace.

God is All Grace.

Apart from God I can do nothing.

Only God is Good.

Christ also said, “I am the vine and you are the branches…With God all thing are possible.”

With His grace, yes.

As God becomes more important in a person’s life, the Sacraments become more vibrant. The Eucharist is indeed the Source and Summit of our Faith.

God ought to always be important but we can take Him for granted.

For many people, hunger for the Sacraments increases as a result of their involvement in the Charismatic Renewal.

I still do not know exactly what this Renewal is. You and others have provided the theory but not said what it involves.

I am going to share link I found on YouTube about a priest encounter with the Charismatic Renewal and how it affected his prayer life.

 

[friardchips]

I don’t think the historical method is bad, in itself. As with all things, it can be taken out of context - in this case, the spiritual context. An historical theory ought to never be in contrast to the tenets of the faith.

Sounds odd, because surely if a theory is written as being temporally factual, it is fact, and therefore, cannot be argued with, except that, with Scripture, historical theories are hard to determine, because we were not there. Our faith (supernatural) in the Word of God, of Holy Scripture, tells us something is true. If something leads us away from the knowledge one has been imbued with, then it is going to be the case that the contemporarily-realised theory, is false; in other words, a theory, not a fact. The tenets of the faith are facts. The accounts of Jesus are historically factual, and of the prophets too. Scripture is factual, rooted in the spiritual.

The historical method has possibly achieved something, to some degree, because even amongst non-Christians, people believe that someone called Jesus, lived. While it is that they don’t all believe He was God. Yet there has been a bridge built, in some direction or other. I do think it is true, though, that the historical-critical method seems to sometimes take on a one-dimensional view, and this can be a danger to the faith of Catholics, if they take in everything without understanding their faith and remain unaware of what they ought to dismiss - measure all things up to Scripture and Church teaching.

The Holy Spirit guides the Church and so while it is that we might not like all the ways in which certain areas of the Church are treated, I don’t think it is healthy to dismiss everything within a subject, because it is not God - who gives plentifully - who mistreats, but rather, those within, who do not always appropriate wisely. I dismiss Modernism, because it contains all and only the false areas belonging to false prophets, along with their false teachings i.e:- not Catholic. But not everything historically-critical is bad. As long as those who are there to teach, remember that it is God’s Will they are meant to be serving, and not just their own ambitions.

.