Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

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CCR approval by the Vatican, and overseen internationally from the Vatican:
http://www.iccrs.org/en/about-iccrs/

The Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the Catholic Charismatic Renewal:
http://www.iccrs.org/en/doctrinal-commission-questions-and-answers/

Vatican Doctrinal commission’s DVD exerpt on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal


A statement from the Catholic Bishops of the USA on the CCR:
http://www.iccrs.org/_files/files/Resources English/STATEMENT-CCR_Bishops-USA_1997_En.pdf

Pope Francis own words on the history of the CCR in 2015

http://www.iccrs.org/_files/files/Newsletter/2016-2017/Pope’s%20Address%20to%2038th%20CCR%20National%20Assembly%20EN.pdf

Pope Benedict 16th tells 100 new bishops to welcome the charisms of the Holy Spirit among the laity and reminds them it is their duty to discern the authenticity of such charisms

The Popes and the CCR
http://www.iccrs.org/en/the-ccr/#Messages

Pope Francis tells priests to bring the CCR into all their parishes,
Addressing a worldwide retreat for clergy at St John Lateran Church in Rome, the Pope reminded his audience of priests and bishops from 90 countries that they were dispensers of grace, and could never love or forgive too much.
“Speaking of dispensers of grace, I ask each and all of you that as part of the current of grace of Charismatic Renewal you organise seminars of Life in the Spirit in your parishes and seminaries, schools, in neighborhoods.’
http://www.ccr.org.uk/articles/pope-tells-priests-run-life-in-the-spirit-courses/

Pope John Paul II speaks on Vatican II, the charisms, and the CCR, in 1994


Vatican II states: “Allotting His gifts “to everyone according as he will” (1 Cor. 12:11), He [the Holy Spirit] distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. . . . These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church” (LG 12).
(Vatican II also refers to the charisms of the Holy Spirit in the following Vatican II Document chapters: LG 4, 7, 12, 30; AA 3, 30; AG 4, 23, 28; DV 7; PO 4, 9).

Official Vatican documents that state the CCR is overseen internationally by the Holy See of Rome

http://www.iccrs.org/en/resources/#DocumentsfromPopes
 
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Historical-critical is (H-C) primarily secular, and this dismisses, to a substantial degree, the Apostolic Tradition. That is evident in their product. While it can play a role, it is 1) not how Christ intended the Church to be handed on to succeeding generations and 2) tries both to raise and then to answer questions that essentially no one is asking.

The documents which the Church possesses have been preserved at a cost in blood - for a very valid reason. H-C, as employed in the case of the Church, strikes me as contracting with the History Channel to explore and explain the faith - and they are notoriously bad at that.

The Protestant “Q” (Quelle) theory is prominent in H-C and is clearly reductionism - potentially insulting to the Hebraic tradition by claiming the possibility that the Gospel writers “copied and pasted” their content. As well, no satisfactory proofs are shown for just who concocted this Q source in the first place.

It has its place, but when we are addressing the supernatural, the earth-based H-C method is entirely out of its element. That, of course, does not prevent its adherents from offering opinions in that regard.

The Church has survived extremely well for almost 2,000 years, with no help at all from the H-C method or its believers.

Now, as to some weighty opinions on the H-C method, two Popes: Monsignor Charles Pope and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (whom I consider to be the world’s greatest living theologian):

 
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I had never heard of the ‘Quelle’ theory. However, I was reading up on your post, whereby one website spoke of the consequences of it (while trying to put the theory into a ‘positive’ framework); one apparently being, that each individual author was attempting to address a different audience e.g:- this Gospel writer, or that Gospel writer, was addressing in particular, these specific people etc…although I thought that this form of approaching the Gospels was from the Historical-Critical Method, and not some ‘Q’ theory.

It would appear to be the case that reductionism is prevalent, or has been, from certain directions.

I like the article you posted.

Also, nothing to do with the ‘Q’ theory, but there has been the suggestion that there was probably a source for areas of some of the Gospels, while still being inspired by the Holy Spirit, which I don’t think contradicts the fact that the Holy Spirit is the Mystical Author of Scripture.
 
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This is where the potential insult to the ancient Hebrew traditions enters in. The Hebrews have been blessed with the great capacity for (and tradition of continuing) the oral tradition as a race and a culture. H-C tend s to view that as folksy and perhaps endearing, but not factually significant. Hmmmm. I note that the demand for proof runs counter to the first theological virtue of faith.

An example is in the scriptures: In 2 Timothy 3, Paul names Jannes and Jambres as two historical figures who opposed Moses. OK, so? Well, there is nowhere any written record of them. Certainly not in the Old Testament.

So how did Paul know of their existence and their activities?

The oral tradition of the Hebrews.

H-C discards this as anecdotal.
 
Going to have to pull this back a bit because we are trekking off-topic. Perhaps a thread to do with the Historical-Critical Method might be helpful.
 
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A long post with a plethora of issues so it is difficult where to start especially in a forum. One can muddle thing up.

If I summarize the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR), yes, that’s the term, I would say it is about the renewal of the hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is the core issue in the Renewal.

When people start to argue on something besides this, we can be sure that they are not talking about the CCR but rather on some subject of interest like abuses in the Catholic Church or whatever misconception of what the Renewal is.

The renewal of the hearts - a return to the Lord or metanoia, change in one’s way of life resulting from penitence or spiritual conversion; repentance, a complete change of heart.

This is what the Renewal is. How do we know? We know by the people’s testimonies, not commentaries by the opponents of the Renewal.

The power of the Holy Spirit is always there in the Catholic Church. The problem for much of the time is that Catholics do not make use of this power and thus their lives never change and they are often defeated by sins.

However, throughout the centuries we saw Catholics arise from their brokenness and became ardent followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. So renewal of the hearts is nothing new.

When the Church needs a renewal of her people, and if the people allow themselves to surrender to the Holy Spirit to empower them to overcome sins, the Holy Spirit will come. Many times in ways that we cannot understand. We can only understand the fruits that come with this power – a greater desire for God and for repentance.

So, in a nutshell, that would be what the CCR is all about. Some people can say it better, but please do not go into what the Renewal is not.
 
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Right! I forgot what the topic was!

In any event, the Church is enriched by the Charismatic Renewal. It is not everyone’s cup of tea - I think that all understand that, or should.

The point that I hammer on is that we must discern what our charisms are - and use them! Matthew 25:14-30 is a clear scripture in that regard.

Just how they discern that is up to the Holy Spirit, their confessor and/or spiritual director.
 
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So, again, the Renewal has an inspiring theory, but of what does it actually consist - be it writings, courses, groups, or what exactly? It doesn’t hurt to state what the ‘Renewal’ is not, just as long as the difference between what it is and what it is not, is made clear.
 
The topic is presumably linked in some way. But yes, on topic, not sure if the charismatic movement is an obligatory aspect of the Church that we have to give our assent of faith, to. But then, I still do not know (as said in another post) of what the movement actually consists. Does it bring people who are already within the Church, to greater understanding, or is it mainly for those who were not yet fully awoken in the Spirit, or primarily for those outside the Church who then entered into the Church (taking into account your statement that the Renewal was most definitely not inspired by non-Catholic denominational Christian branches).
 
It is a program, so to speak, but that is only to lend structure to it. Rather, it is an active, living movement powered by the Holy Spirit which includes intense prayer, praise and worship, healing and charismatic masses, testimonials - a really wide ranging variety of active participation.

For only one example, read more here: https://ccrno.org/
 
To state here, that I think I remember, a very long time ago, reading of the ‘Renewal’ and not seeing anything in the documents that pertained to trying to gain charisms, at least as the main objective. It was more about remembering what our faith is meant to be geared towards. I still have the idea, which I don’t think is make-believe, that this understanding is often misinterpreted, not just by those who do not partake of this movement, but by those who support it. As if it is the only area of the Church. Again, some idea as to what the movement actually consists, would be helpful. Maybe I could do that by simply reading a document; however, it would be interesting to see someone on here actually state the case.
 
Had a look at that website and read some of the elements to it, but it seems to make for difficulties:
  1. We know the Holy Spirit is within us, and so, why are people behaving as if He comes from outside with their hands raised in the air.
  2. Pentecost has already happened, and so, when we are ‘awoken’, we are not reliving a new Pentecost, but rather, the reality of Pentecost (in Scripture), is living in us, and therefore, again, why the hands in the air. And if we have been ‘awoken’, for want of a better term, why do I require further enlightenment, which presumably comes by way of consolation and desolation?
On a testimonial, the words read (from the ccrno link): 'The above characteristics may sound like they are associated with churches and ecclesial bodies that come out of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, and that is true. It needs to be remembered, however….’

Also: ‘Although we separate them out in order to describe them, all three aspects must work together in a harmonious way in our lives if we are to achieve a balanced Christianity.’ That, is a blanket statement.

Not going to stamp on other people’s faith, however. If the Holy Spirit is there, somewhere, then He is there. Still not sure why people can’t just pray about their lives to God.

I’d feel awkward thinking that I own a gift. We have gifts, but these are sourced in God. God working through us.

People can visit Our Lady of Lourdes, and receive healing, of whatever kind it is that God wishes them to receive, via grace. They can also do this at home although pilgrimages entail a special blessing.

There has been no drop in Christian faith, ever. If anything, people’s faith has relativised in more recent years. In the past, we had saints, and apparitions, and great, great things. These great things were not void of suffering but rather often came by way of it.
 
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friardchips said:
Is there a link between deliverance ministries and charismatic groups? Is one an offshoot of the other?
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I can only speak for what I see in my diocese. There is a “deliverance ministry” training that includes priests and laypeople. It’s very specifically targeted at deliverance ministry training. You have to sign up for the program and it totally fills up. I discovered it because one day I showed up at a local parish church for Mass and it was chockablock with this deliverance ministry group filling the entire large premises. I am sure there are people who are interested both in that and in charismatic practice, but this wasn’t billed as a “charismatic” event.

I have not run into any sort of deliverance ministry at the Charismatic events I have been to around here. They are primarily presented as “healing Masses” and a priest will pray with/ over you and bless you. The priest may be saying a deliverance prayer of some sort for all I know as I’m not a priest. But it’s not a whole bunch of people praying over you to deliver you from something. I personally approach it as a healing, as inviting the Holy Spirit to come into me and work. I don’t approach it as me needing to be “delivered” from anything because I don’t feel in the grip of anything bad right now and I’m trying to keep it that way (it’s not like the demons aren’t trying, but I pray to St. Michael and Mary and Joseph and Jesus every day to keep them away).

My impression is that the priests involved with Catholic charismatic stuff are trying to avoid this deliverance-type thinking. I would hope they are, anyway. I’m not into that, and it seems very Protestant.

I see much more “deliverance” type praying in some of my more traditional circles, one of which is now promoting Auxiliorum Christianorum.
 
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I don’t think it is advisable to enter into things which one is not sure about when it comes to areas of faith.
 
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I am confused by these last two paragraphs - you said that you thought the deliverance stuff is protestantish but then said that is seems to be more widely the case in traditional circles.

There is no bad thing about a priest praying over someone. But I thought that would always be in terms of healing, as to ridding oneself of evil. Certainly a Mass can have intentions, but the point of a Mass is the eucharist, and not anything else. Although the homily is also essential.
 
friardchips said:
you said that you thought the deliverance stuff is protestantish but then said that is seems to be more widely the case in traditional circles.
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The traditional people don’t do it in a Protestant way. They don’t gather around someone and pray over them. They would let the priest go do the praying over the person, or the exorcism or whatever, and they would pray in support of the priest at home with a blessed candle and a statue of St. Michael.
They seem to have more concern over demons than the average charismatic I meet, though.
 
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friardchips said:
There is no bad thing about a priest praying over someone. But I thought that would always be in terms of healing, as to ridding oneself of evil. Certainly a Mass can have intentions, but the point of a Mass is the eucharist, and not anything else. Although the homily is also essential.
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The priest prayers are always, always done after the conclusion of Mass. Never during.
 
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