F
friardchips
Guest
I see. This post makes sense to me.
- Status
F
friardchips
Guest
Is there a difference between fanning the flames of fervour and sign-chasing? Who are signs for? For what, or for who, are we supposed to be knocking?
Last edited:
F
friardchips
Guest
Why not just say the prayers as intentions during the Mass - there are three places that this is done: at the start, during which intentions can be verbalised by the priest (as arranged prior to the Mass), and placed within the content of Bidding Prayers before our private intentions are then, also, offered up, immediately before the Hail Mary?
Last edited:
F
friardchips
Guest
I don’t think it is obligatory to give one’s assent of faith to the charismatic movement.
One is also to give public witness.
It is definitely not me who has a ‘Marian difficulty’, as you put it. I love her devotions, and all the dogmas, and believe them all to be true, rooted firmly in Scripture.
I think discernment also has something to do with it, i.e:- if one reads things that do not add up or in some way contradicts what we know to be true then surely it is spiritual discernment that we have to go by.
What I have read from the sources so far provided - minus the iccrs ones, as I haven’t read them, still - do not seem to provide any substantial ingredients that in any way go towards changing my view.
One is also to give public witness.
It is definitely not me who has a ‘Marian difficulty’, as you put it. I love her devotions, and all the dogmas, and believe them all to be true, rooted firmly in Scripture.
I think discernment also has something to do with it, i.e:- if one reads things that do not add up or in some way contradicts what we know to be true then surely it is spiritual discernment that we have to go by.
What I have read from the sources so far provided - minus the iccrs ones, as I haven’t read them, still - do not seem to provide any substantial ingredients that in any way go towards changing my view.
Last edited:
po18guy
Well-known member
You misunderstand my point. Non-Catholics have a Marian problem. Trouble accepting the Charismatic Renewal is your difficulty, just as Mary is with non-Catholics. But, granting assent is a misnomer, as the renewal is a movement, not a doctrine.
If you do not like it, forget about it!
Simple.
If you do not like it, forget about it!
Simple.
F
friardchips
Guest
Marian devotion is instrinsic and so is not a good comparison to make.
You have answered my question then, that I do not have to believe in it, because it is not a doctrine. This is something I wished to hear written in certain terms.
Forgetting it, while sensible, is not altogether wise, because we have a duty, as Catholics, to care about these things. Yes, prayer is the way to offer up one’s faith, but sometimes we have to tackle these things, practically, also.
I don’t want to dislike any area put forward as being apparently within the Church, necessarily, yet when it seems to seep into other areas, and affects other things, we have a duty, possibly, to do something about it - liking or disliking doesn’t really come into it. Are we hot, cold or lukewarm? As with Modernism, things can be taught in quite high circles, but do we give in to those things if they seem to contradict what is truly favourable or do we try and route through the issues? Are aspects of the faith to be shared at all levels? Or, is the faith for the ordained, only?
You have answered my question then, that I do not have to believe in it, because it is not a doctrine. This is something I wished to hear written in certain terms.
Forgetting it, while sensible, is not altogether wise, because we have a duty, as Catholics, to care about these things. Yes, prayer is the way to offer up one’s faith, but sometimes we have to tackle these things, practically, also.
I don’t want to dislike any area put forward as being apparently within the Church, necessarily, yet when it seems to seep into other areas, and affects other things, we have a duty, possibly, to do something about it - liking or disliking doesn’t really come into it. Are we hot, cold or lukewarm? As with Modernism, things can be taught in quite high circles, but do we give in to those things if they seem to contradict what is truly favourable or do we try and route through the issues? Are aspects of the faith to be shared at all levels? Or, is the faith for the ordained, only?
Last edited:
po18guy
Well-known member
Then I have also completely misunderstood your motives and questions. Sadly, the charismatic movement has been so polarizing, hated, opposed - and those most vocal normally admit of no experience with it. What is wrong with that line of reasoning? “It looks funny” is the usual response. Kinda sounds like claiming the apostles were drunk on new wine.
For that reason, as it is with Catholicism in general, we play defense.
My involvement has been a single Life in the Spirit seminar, two healing masses and a day of Charismatic worship with mass and confession. Oh, but that confession was the most profoundly spiritual experience that I have ever received. Utterly amazing. It still brings tears to speak of it.
That’s is the limit of my involvement.
But it forever changed, deepened and brought my faith to life. For me, there is no looking back.
For that reason, as it is with Catholicism in general, we play defense.
My involvement has been a single Life in the Spirit seminar, two healing masses and a day of Charismatic worship with mass and confession. Oh, but that confession was the most profoundly spiritual experience that I have ever received. Utterly amazing. It still brings tears to speak of it.
That’s is the limit of my involvement.
But it forever changed, deepened and brought my faith to life. For me, there is no looking back.
Last edited:
C
Crocus
Guest
When you get it, you get it. When you don’t, you just don’t. For me, it’s when I truly fell in love.
Last edited:
po18guy
Well-known member
If you click on the link in my last post, you will understand - and I know that you do!
Last edited:
Y
YoungCatholicGuy
Guest
Four Popes, the Vatican II documents, the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission into the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and the Letter written by the Bishops of the USA on the catholic charismatic renewal,
None of these influence your opinion?
You said yourself you have not looked at any of the ICCR websites yet: This is the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission into the Catholic Charismatic renewal and is overseen by the Holy See itself,
One should not come to a conclusion without first looking into all the evidence provided.
You have mentioned a few times ‘false wolves’ and ‘errors’, what evidence can you provide of this beyond your own ‘opinion’ ?
(There have been false shepherds in every aspect of the church, satan always tries to discredit every aspect of the church where he can influence people. The Vatican has said that people in the CCR to submit all discernment to their priests and bishops,).
You believe that the Popes, Vatican II, Bishops of the USA, and Vatican’s Doctrinal commission, are supporting ‘false wolves,’ ‘error,’ ‘something which contradicts the faith,’?
You have said the CCR is sign chasing?
People flocked to Saint Padre Pio to be cured, is that sign chasing?
People often go to Lourdes seeking a miracle, is that sign chasing?
You stated:
‘’if one reads things that do not add up or in some way contradicts what we know to be true then surely it is spiritual discernment that we have to go by.’’
You are saying the Popes, Vatican II, Bishops of the USA, and Vatican’s Doctrinal commission contradict the truth by saying the CCR is a current of grace for the church?
Sr Briege McKenna the carmelite healing nun (and EWTN guestspeaker) was healed at a CCR prayer meeting, received the gift of healing and travels the world now using this ministry to allow Jesus to heal through her, (she also works under obedience to her priest and Mother Superior as the Vatican states all charisms are to be under discernment of one’s priest).
Does that mean she contradicts church teaching and all who go to her for intercession are sign chasing?
Please let us know what you think of all the ICRR websites (which are the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the Catholic Charismatic Renewal).
Last edited:
But @friardchips , this is not a quote from any document of the Second Council of the Vatican .
You did say , “Yes, the subject of ‘charismatic renewal’ and the word ‘renewal’ itself, can be found in the compiled Vatican II documents.”
I have asked you which documents of the Council you are referring to , and you don’t come up with any .
Yes you will find the word “renewal” in the documents .
But I’ll say what I said before , “But there is nothing in the documents of the Second Council of the Vatican specifically about the Charismatic Renewal .”
I am not posting this to be awkward , but to put the record straight .
Many things are said about the Second Council of the Vatican which are not true . Many things are said about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which are not true . So I see it as our duty to be accurate in our posts .
By the way , your name reminds me of a chippy just down the road from me .
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Y
YoungCatholicGuy
Guest
Vatican II states: “Allotting His gifts “to everyone according as he will” (1 Cor. 12:11), He [the Holy Spirit] distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. . . . These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church” (LG 12).
(Vatican II also refers to the charisms of the Holy Spirit in the following Vatican II Document chapters: LG 4, 7, 12, 30; AA 3, 30; AG 4, 23, 28; DV 7; PO 4, 9).
(Vatican II also refers to the charisms of the Holy Spirit in the following Vatican II Document chapters: LG 4, 7, 12, 30; AA 3, 30; AG 4, 23, 28; DV 7; PO 4, 9).
D
DebCWil
Guest
One of the earliest posts asked about whether or not a person should ask for an increase in the virtues.
Today’s reading from Divine Intimacy begins, “Oh. Lord teach me to love You truly, with my whole heart, my whole soul., and with all my strength.”
i will begin by saying that the gifts, are charisms of the Holy Spirit, are simply that. Gifts. They are not a sign that a person is necessarily holier or more pious than a person who does not display these outward signs.
The focus of today’s meditation was on charity. We can never love God enough. While I do not seek God for His gifts, why would I not be willing to accept whatever gifts He may want to give me?
To whomever much is given, much is also expected. People within a given parish will not always be able to know who the Charismatics within a congregation are. They will often be the most active parishioners. They will be the ECMH’s, the music ministers, the ladies leading the rosary before Mass. They may be the person in the parish doing the home visitation, or taking time to visit the sick at hospital.
Today’s reading from Divine Intimacy begins, “Oh. Lord teach me to love You truly, with my whole heart, my whole soul., and with all my strength.”
i will begin by saying that the gifts, are charisms of the Holy Spirit, are simply that. Gifts. They are not a sign that a person is necessarily holier or more pious than a person who does not display these outward signs.
The focus of today’s meditation was on charity. We can never love God enough. While I do not seek God for His gifts, why would I not be willing to accept whatever gifts He may want to give me?
To whomever much is given, much is also expected. People within a given parish will not always be able to know who the Charismatics within a congregation are. They will often be the most active parishioners. They will be the ECMH’s, the music ministers, the ladies leading the rosary before Mass. They may be the person in the parish doing the home visitation, or taking time to visit the sick at hospital.
F
friardchips
Guest
The quote I posted eventually is from the Vatican II documents. The documents were set out before me with titles and all as I wrote the quote. It is true that the term ‘charismatic renewal’, with the words together - the term representing what we understand now as an actual movement - does not seem to be in there. However, the quote I posted does seem to be related, if not as a precursor to something, and there are other areas speaking of charismatic groups etc…but again, none of this is necessarily directly related. But considering that the Charismatic Renewal , according to some of the people here, does seem to consist of some of the attributes that make up the charismatic group activity, as given mention in the Vatican II documents, there does appear, at least, to be some kind of link.
I have stated that I am not in any way against Vatican II. Why would I be against the Holy Spirit? And never have been. The term ‘Traditional Catholic’, I have always thought somewhat…odd.
I have stated that I am not in any way against Vatican II. Why would I be against the Holy Spirit? And never have been. The term ‘Traditional Catholic’, I have always thought somewhat…odd.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
People want a personal prayer or a personal interaction with the Holy Spirit and the priest. I see it as similar to the stories of those cured in the New Testament. Generally it is portrayed as a personal interaction, even though Jesus could have just as easily cured somebody from a distance or in a mass ceremony.
There are also general healing prayers during a healing Mass as well. I suppose next you will say, “if the person already got the benefit of those prayers, then why go for the personal interaction?” The answer is, it’s a preference, it’s allowed by the Church, and it’s not that different from seeking a personal blessing even though the priest blesses the whole congregation at the end of the Mass. If someone else is feeling some benefit from it, and it’s allowed, then I’m not seeing any problem with it just because others don’t share the preference.
There are also general healing prayers during a healing Mass as well. I suppose next you will say, “if the person already got the benefit of those prayers, then why go for the personal interaction?” The answer is, it’s a preference, it’s allowed by the Church, and it’s not that different from seeking a personal blessing even though the priest blesses the whole congregation at the end of the Mass. If someone else is feeling some benefit from it, and it’s allowed, then I’m not seeing any problem with it just because others don’t share the preference.
Y
YoungCatholicGuy
Guest
Pope Francis own words to the 38th National Convocation of RnS in Italy, in July 2015:
http://www.iccrs.org/_files/files/Newsletter/2016-2017/Pope’s%20Address%20to%2038th%20CCR%20National%20Assembly%20EN.pdf
‘’I greatly appreciate your response to my invitation in January to meet here in St Peter’s Square. Thank you for this enthusiastic and warm response. Last year in the stadium I shared with all those present several reflections which I would like to remember today — because it is always good to remember, to recall; the identity of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, from which gave rise to the Renewal in the Spirit association. I shall do so with the words of Cardinal Léon-Joseph Suenens, the great defender of the Charismatic Renewal, as he described it in the second volume of his memoirs.
To start with, in this place, he recalled the extraordinary figure of a woman who did so much at the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal; she was his co-worker who also enjoyed the trust and affection of Pope Paul VI. I am referring to Veronica O’Brien: she was the one who asked the Cardinal to go to the United States to see what was happening, to see with his own eyes what she considered to be the work of the Holy Spirit. It was then that Cardinal Suenens got to know the Charismatic Renewal, which he described as a “flow of grace”, and he was the key person for maintaining it in the Church. At the Mass on Pentecost Monday in 1975, Pope Paul VI thanked him with these words: "In the name of the Lord I thank you for having brought the Charismatic Renewal into the heart of the Church."
It is not a novelty of some years ago; the Charismatic Renewal has a long history, and in the homily of that very Mass, the Cardinal said: “May the Charismatic Renewal disappear as such and be transformed into a Pentecostal grace for the whole Church: to be faithful to its origin, the river must lose itself in the ocean.” The river must be lost in the ocean. Yes, if the river comes to a halt the water becomes stagnant; should the Renewal, this current of grace, not end in the ocean of God, in the love of God, it would work for itself and this is not of Jesus Christ, this is of the Evil One, of the father of lies. The Renewal continues, it comes from God and goes to God.
Pope Paul VI blessed this. The Cardinal continued, saying: "The first error that must be avoided is including the Charismatic Renewal in the category of a Movement. It is not a specific Movement; the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense; it does not have founders, it is not homogeneous and it includes a great variety of realities; it is a current of grace, a renewing breath of the Spirit for all members of the Church, laity, religious, priests and bishops. It is a challenge for us all. One does not form part of the Renewal, rather, the Renewal becomes a part of us provided that we accept the grace it offers us."
http://www.iccrs.org/_files/files/Newsletter/2016-2017/Pope’s%20Address%20to%2038th%20CCR%20National%20Assembly%20EN.pdf
‘’I greatly appreciate your response to my invitation in January to meet here in St Peter’s Square. Thank you for this enthusiastic and warm response. Last year in the stadium I shared with all those present several reflections which I would like to remember today — because it is always good to remember, to recall; the identity of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, from which gave rise to the Renewal in the Spirit association. I shall do so with the words of Cardinal Léon-Joseph Suenens, the great defender of the Charismatic Renewal, as he described it in the second volume of his memoirs.
To start with, in this place, he recalled the extraordinary figure of a woman who did so much at the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal; she was his co-worker who also enjoyed the trust and affection of Pope Paul VI. I am referring to Veronica O’Brien: she was the one who asked the Cardinal to go to the United States to see what was happening, to see with his own eyes what she considered to be the work of the Holy Spirit. It was then that Cardinal Suenens got to know the Charismatic Renewal, which he described as a “flow of grace”, and he was the key person for maintaining it in the Church. At the Mass on Pentecost Monday in 1975, Pope Paul VI thanked him with these words: "In the name of the Lord I thank you for having brought the Charismatic Renewal into the heart of the Church."
It is not a novelty of some years ago; the Charismatic Renewal has a long history, and in the homily of that very Mass, the Cardinal said: “May the Charismatic Renewal disappear as such and be transformed into a Pentecostal grace for the whole Church: to be faithful to its origin, the river must lose itself in the ocean.” The river must be lost in the ocean. Yes, if the river comes to a halt the water becomes stagnant; should the Renewal, this current of grace, not end in the ocean of God, in the love of God, it would work for itself and this is not of Jesus Christ, this is of the Evil One, of the father of lies. The Renewal continues, it comes from God and goes to God.
Pope Paul VI blessed this. The Cardinal continued, saying: "The first error that must be avoided is including the Charismatic Renewal in the category of a Movement. It is not a specific Movement; the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense; it does not have founders, it is not homogeneous and it includes a great variety of realities; it is a current of grace, a renewing breath of the Spirit for all members of the Church, laity, religious, priests and bishops. It is a challenge for us all. One does not form part of the Renewal, rather, the Renewal becomes a part of us provided that we accept the grace it offers us."
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This attitude towards Charismatic practice is largely unfounded in this day and age. Maybe back in the 70s, there was some danger that little cells of charismatic people would break off from the Church and go their own way. We saw some of this. There was also some pushing to include more charismatic elements into the regular Mass, which bothered a lot of people who didn’t want to be waving their arms or shouting “Amen”.
These days, I don’t see that. Charismatics often tend to be very involved in their parishes, and they usually don’t go around advertising themselves. Perhaps too many people think they are “dangerous” for no good reason, when really they seem pretty holy to me.
I have absolutely no idea why you would single out charismatics as something we have a “duty” to do something about. They simply aren’t scary. They aren’t hurting any church I’ve seen lately. Having a greater appreciation for the Holy Spirit “seep into other areas” sounds awesome to me. You just sound like you’re nervous about something that isn’t your own personal preference. I’ve seen people react the same way to the traditionalists.
it would be nice if we could just tolerate people’s desires to worship or practice their faith in a particular manner that is allowed by the Church - no rules being broken - without acting like it must be the bogeyman because we ourselves don’t like it or don’t understand it or don’t want to do it.
Last edited:
F
friardchips
Guest
I think the issue, maybe, is partly due to titles given to things. As said, in another post, even the Traditional Catholic term bugs, somewhat. Then we have this title, ‘charismatics’, again, as something set out as unique, over and above ‘normal’ Catholics. Then, as another poster reminded us, more terms, New Evangelisation, along with the Charismatic Renewal etc…as if all this is something other than what we already have. We have Mass, we have prayers, we have devotions, and a wide array of holy sacramentals, we have pilgrimages, we have all this readily available, and all of it is both mystically and physically entwined, and so, why so many titles, when we have all we could possibly need. As if the Church was somehow failing, beforehand. No. It wasn’t. There have been world wars and sixties lliberalization on a world scale that came with a technological boom, that no doubt added difficult obstacles. Then we have Ecumenism…I am not saying that is bad, in itself, but really, are these things really understood all the way through the Church, from the Pope to the laity. And these things get confused, and we start getting problems, and divides. And even worse for the uncatechised who must then really be confused.
Yes, it is so simple. We have gifts. We can ask God for these. We get appropriated with the attributes we need from prayer, and the Rosary in particular, Our Lady appropriating graces so that we can do God’s bidding, the Saints praying for us and their writings to inspire, and we have the support from the LOTH, and opportunities for love in God’s timing and placing. We are ‘evangelisers’ by our very Catholic faith. And not just to the non-converted but to those who have broken away into denominational Churches - it is just that ‘evangelisation’ is carried out differently, according to where people are (I think). But ‘evangelising’…is basically a more contemporary word in place of ‘converting’, or ‘baptising’.
All of this might be inspirations coming from the Holy Spirit, because He is guiding the Church, and so I am not opposed to what the Church is doing by reminding people of their duties as Catholics; however, at the same time, we need to understand, that when we take these things out of proportion, when they point away from what we know to be true, when they confuse things, then there is a point of real concern.
What we end up with is Modernism mixed in with types of Ecumenism, and lots of practices that come by way of contemporary ideas, that do not bring an overall clarity and do not point to a deepening of mystical awareness - I sometimes notice that devotion to Our Lady and reverance for all things holy, are not as they could be. The Holy Spirit brings clarity because God is Eternal Wisdom. So, this is not all as straight-forward as it could be. Because otherwise there would be clarity.
Maybe it is that the context is missing, or being avoided. Partly due to the requirement for ‘evangelising’. Without grace, how do we go out to people. Sacraments and prayer. That’s how.
Yes, it is so simple. We have gifts. We can ask God for these. We get appropriated with the attributes we need from prayer, and the Rosary in particular, Our Lady appropriating graces so that we can do God’s bidding, the Saints praying for us and their writings to inspire, and we have the support from the LOTH, and opportunities for love in God’s timing and placing. We are ‘evangelisers’ by our very Catholic faith. And not just to the non-converted but to those who have broken away into denominational Churches - it is just that ‘evangelisation’ is carried out differently, according to where people are (I think). But ‘evangelising’…is basically a more contemporary word in place of ‘converting’, or ‘baptising’.
All of this might be inspirations coming from the Holy Spirit, because He is guiding the Church, and so I am not opposed to what the Church is doing by reminding people of their duties as Catholics; however, at the same time, we need to understand, that when we take these things out of proportion, when they point away from what we know to be true, when they confuse things, then there is a point of real concern.
What we end up with is Modernism mixed in with types of Ecumenism, and lots of practices that come by way of contemporary ideas, that do not bring an overall clarity and do not point to a deepening of mystical awareness - I sometimes notice that devotion to Our Lady and reverance for all things holy, are not as they could be. The Holy Spirit brings clarity because God is Eternal Wisdom. So, this is not all as straight-forward as it could be. Because otherwise there would be clarity.
Maybe it is that the context is missing, or being avoided. Partly due to the requirement for ‘evangelising’. Without grace, how do we go out to people. Sacraments and prayer. That’s how.
Last edited:
Y
YoungCatholicGuy
Guest
All of this might be inspirations coming from the Holy Spirit, because He is guiding the Church, and so I am not opposed to what the Church is doing by reminding people of their duties as Catholics; however, at the same time, we need to understand, that when things point away from what we know to be true, or when they confuse things, or take them out of proportion, then there is a point of concern.
What we end up with is Modernism mixed in with types of Ecumenism, and lots of practices that come by way of contemporary ideas, that do not bring an overall clarity and do not point to a deepening of mystical awareness - I sometimes notice that devotion to Our Lady and reverance for all things holy, are not as they could be. The Holy Spirit brings clarity because God is Eternal Wisdom. So, this is not all as straight-forward as it could be. Because otherwise there would be clarity.
Maybe it is that the context is missing, or being avoided. Partly due to the requirement for ‘Evangelising.’
Friardchips,
You stated above that the CCR ‘might’ be from the Holy Spirit. And you stated ‘when people start going against what we know to be true’ that there are causes for concern.
So the last 4 Popes, Vatican ii, Vatican, bishops, and the Vatican’s doctrinal commission, and the ICCR (which is approved and overseen by the Holy See),
You personally believe are all supporting something which is an error?
Which is a ‘concern’ for you because you hint that the magisterium of the church is going against ‘what you know to be true’?
The Vatican’s Doctrinal commission’s duty is to discern if something is: supernatural in character (from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief for the faithful.
That has been done by the Vatican’s doctrinal commission of the CCR, there are no theological errors/ it is of God/ worthy of belief, (same as for every catholic, when each of the individuals involved remain faithful to the Catholic Church, and submit to their priests discernment).
The Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission has approved the CCR, along with the Popes, Vatican, and Bishops.
You have said the Holy Spirit’s charisms have always been there. That is true. And if God wishes to make the works of His Holy Spirit as plentiful now as at Pentecost,
You believe that is an error and cause for concern, against what you ‘know to be true?’
Have you read any of the ICCR websites yet?
(Which are the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR),
I think you have an image in your mind of everyone working miracles and speaking in tongues,
The CCR is not like that, it is just a refocus on one’s relationship with the Holy Spirit, in a particular way.
Most people just have the usual gifts: such as faith, charity, hope, and develop a more strengthened active prayer life. All together pray, read scripture, maybe do adoration, rosary, some prayers to Our Lady.
The Vatican and Popes did say, the charisms only exist under pastoral discernment of a priest, (same as for the saints).
Last edited:
- Status