Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

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The CCR never said we can force God’s gifts.
It is simply a reminder of the Vatican to the faithful: be open to the Holy Spirit.

You still haven’t read all the ICCR website links of the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR.

Where does it say in any Papal statement/ Vatican quote/ bishop statement/ Vatican Doctrinal Commissiom statement, that the Faithful are to FORCE the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

You are restating your ‘solo scriptura opinion’ to contradict 4 Popes, Vatican II, Vatican, Bishops, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission, approval of the CCR.

When you still have not read the ICCR Vatican Doctrinal Commission links about the CCR.

Please provide evidence of quotes of where you see error in the Vatican, Popes, Bishops, Vatican Doctrinal Commission statements of approval of the CCR,

And don’t use ‘solo scriptura’ to try to contradict a Vatican Doctrinal Commission which found the CCR theologically free of error, supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), and worthy of belief by the faithful.
 
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We celebrate Pentecost every year. Read the book of Acts. The outpouring of the gifts that the Apostles received during the First Pentecost continues to be available to us today.
As Peter was visiting Cornelius, the Holy Spirit fell upon the household and they began to speak in tongues and glorifying God. [Acts 10:45]. Peter then baptized Cornelius and his household.
This Baptism of the Gentiles helped Paul later in his argument that Gentiles who accepted the Faith need not be circumcised. The First Council of the Church at Jerusalem is also in the Book of Acts.

St. Paul talks about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in his letters. He writes about proper use and behavior within the assembly, especially in the writings to the Corinthians.
While he calls the gift of tongues, the least of the gifts, remember that it is still a gift from God.
I may be able to pray in tongues. There is a time and place. God may use my gift for prophecy, which needs an interpreter within the assembly. Today that assembly would most often be a Charismatic prayer meeting.
As Catholics, we are often asked why we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God. Of course, I pray to the Father through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.
My Catholic Faith is simple enough to be summarized in the Nicene Creed, deep enough that I will not reach the depths during my lifetime.There is always something to learn.
What is it that we seek, but greater and deeper intimacy with God?
As Catholics, we don’t know when we will be called to witness to our Faith.
Am I going to turn down a person who asks me to pray for her, even when it happen in the middle of the street? Even when I have no idea why the person sought me out?
We are called to give an accounting for the hope we have within us. The Holy Spirit makes this possible. It is the Holy Spirit who gives me the words I need when I don’t know what to say.
 
I see a lot of danger in a catholic going online to contradict 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something.

When that catholic has not even read the Vatican’s documents from each of those sources to inform his ‘opinion.’
 
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You spoke of Metanoia but I don’t see the Charismatic Renewal as representing Metanoia, and in the least, not in entirety. Conversions have happened outside of the ‘Renewal’. Both mass (many in the same area) and individual conversions. Often the taking on of a new devotion, retreats or pilgrimages, or holy visits somewhere, can all contribute to a change of heart. Sometimes, it means altering our weekly schedules - doing some kind of good work. It can mean attending more Masses. It can come about by the reading of a new spiritual book e.g:- the life of a saint. It can certainly happen via the Rosary, as Our Lady strengthens one’s heart against Satan and sin, urging us towards the Sacraments. The LOTH is definitely worth praying - the homilies and writings of Popes and Saints, are very powerful. Also, personal prayer in terms of silence. This is really important. One might find that silent prayer and the Rosary seem to incur temptations, which shows that they are important, because the devil is trying so very hard to distract, during those times.
 
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Yes conversions happen everywhere within the Catholic and Christian faith, yes the Sacraments are number one priority (the Vatican and CCR state this together), God can work His grace where He chooses, through the sacraments, liturgy, Our Lady, but also including through prayer to the Third Person of the Trinity.

The ‘opinion’ of yours that the CCR does not represent ‘conversion of heart’ is an ‘opinion’ that contradicts the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission approval of the CCR (which is also approved by the last 4 Popes, Vatican, and Bishops),

Provide an evidence of a quote from those above sources of authority (from the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR, or a statement about the CCR from the last 4 Popes/ Vatican /Bishops),
to back up your ‘opinion’ that the CCR is not about conversion of heart.

If you read the articles it is about renewing ones Baptismal Promises, and renewing one’s commitment to The Holy Spirit (saying with Mary to God; ‘ your will be done not mine’. Making a full unreserved personal commitment to Jesus). Many saints did this.

Have you still not read the ICCR Vatican doctrinal commission enquiry into the CCR weblinks, to find the quotes to prove ‘errors’ you are opinionating?
 
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friardchips said:
'Section 7: The Synod of Bishops

Secondly, the deep desire to understand better the Spirit’s action and to entrust oneself to him more fully - at a time when “in the Church we are living an exceptionally favourable season of the Spirit”, as my predecessor Paul VI remarked in his Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi - must bring about a catechetical awakening. For “renewal in the Spirit” will be authentic and will have real fruitfulness in the Church, not so much according as it gives rise to extraordinary charisms, but according as it leads the greatest possible number of the faithful, as they travel their daily plans, to make a humble, patient and persevering effort to know the mystery of Christ better and better, and to bear witness to it.
I invoke on the catechizing Church this Spirit of the Father and the Son, and I beg him to renew catechetical dynamism in the Church.’
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Following on from this, looking at the charism document: https://www.siena.org/documents/2016/12/charisms.pdf

…we see this written:

‘In the community life and pastoral practice of the Church, charisms must be recognized but also discerned, as the Synod Fathers recalled in 1987.’

Not sure if the Sybod of Bishops is the same as the Synod of Fathers…? However, the ‘charism’ document mentions nothing of the ‘charismatic renewal’ but only mentions the word ‘charism’, which, as we know, is also found in the Vatican II documents.
 
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No, you do not “have to believe” it. You do not “have to” practice it. You do not “have to” do anything.

I believe that you are over-thinking this.

My impression is that you are lasered in on something that you do not particularly like; something which raises your suspicions.

I ask again: why not simply drop the subject and move on?

The Church has other devotions sufficient for billions of lifetimes.

Just saying.
 
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And if you actually read the ICCR Vatican Doctrinal Commission into the CCR (weblinks) provided to you,
You would see Papal/ Bishops/ Vatican/ Vatican doctrinal commission statements that Vatican II’s
reference to charisms was a forerunner of the CCR, that the entire Church had been asked to pray in each mass for the Holy Spirit to renew the church (as on Pentecost), and that the CCR is approved by a Vatican Doctrinal Commission/ Popes/ Bishops/ Vatican, as being theologically without error, supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), and worthy of belief for the faithful.

That all of the above authorities have said it is not a movement, it is the Holy Spirit working.
So it is a question of whether you believe in the scriptural basis of the charisms (both great and small).

A catholic should not be trying to contradict: 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something.

And still you have not read the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR yet, but instead are trying to contradict: 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something, by using the Vatican II document solo scriptura, or: ‘solo vaticanura’
 
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'…an aspect that applies to every type of ministry and to charisms: their diversity and variety cannot harm unity. “There are different gifts but the same Spirit; there are different ministries but the same Lord.” (1 Cor. 12:4-5) ’

Another quote from the ‘charism document’ that I think could do with consideration, especially the words '…but the same Spirit…’. - one spirituality, with a variety of gifts and ministries.
 
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DebCWil said:
We celebrate Pentecost every year. Read the book of Acts. The outpouring of the gifts that the Apostles received during the First Pentecost continues to be available to us today.
Click to expand...
Yes we celebrate Pentecost every year, but that is different from Pentecost happening every year. Yes the Holy Spirit is with us pouring out graces and guiding us, but that doesn’t mean we are reliving Pentecost.
 
Devotions are an essential aspect of our faith and so is not an apt comparison to the (not-just-sociological) charismatic Movement.
 
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Devotion to the Holy Spirit is praiseworthy. Saint Louis de Monfort prayed to the Holy Spirit daily.

And like has been quoted to you:
The Popes/ Bishops/ Vatican/ Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission have ALL stated the CCR is not a movement, it is simply the Holy Spirit at work the way He worked at Pentecost and in the Early Christian communities.

Your ‘opinion’ is not in the Popes/ Bishops/ Vatican/ Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission‘s statements on the CCR
 
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All prayer is via the Holy Spirit. Devotions are very important. St. Louis De Montfort’s main devotional treatise is very powerful.
 
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However:…
YoungCatholicGuy said:
still you have not read the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR yet, but instead are trying to contradict: 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something, by using the Vatican II document instead of solo scriptura, now you are using a form of: ‘solo vaticanura’
Click to expand...
???

When are you going to read the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the CCR (links provided) to show us the quotes of ‘errors’ you ‘opinionate’ into the CCR, (which you have stated you have zero experience of),
Instead of stating an opinion over and over, when this has full Church Magisterium approval.

You are barking up the wrong tree…
 
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We are. Reliving is not the issue. It is entwined with remembrance. The problem is that maybe there is the mistake of thinking that we are experiencing a second Pentecost when it is that Revelation has happened.
 
Renewing is heresy?
Saint Louis de Monfort urged all his followers to renew their Baptismal Promises daily, and to renew their consecration to the Holy Spirit daily.
So that is an error now?

Except the Vatican doctrinal Commission deals
with private revelation. And has approved the CCR. And the Popes have said all private revelation/ charisms in the CCR is to be discerned by ones priests or bishops.

So another error again in your ‘opinionating’
 
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You stated yourself you have not read one document by the ICCR vatican Doctrinal Commission into the CCR.

And these were provided to you over 18 hours ago.

You are using solo scriptura and Vatican II, to contradict 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something,

A catholic should reply:
Okay the church has approved this but it is not my cup of tea.

Rather than try to contradict 4 Popes, Vatican, Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission and the Bishops, united unanimous statements of approval of something,
 
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More from the ‘Charism’ document:

'As St. Paul told us and the Council repeated, these charisms result from the free choice and gift of the Holy Spirit. In a special way the Triune God shows his sovereign power in the gifts. This power is not subject to any antecedent rule, to any particular discipline or to a plan of interventions established once and for all.

According to St. Paul, he distributes his gifts to each “as he wills” (1 Cor. 12:11) It is an eternal will of love, whose freedom and gratuitousness is revealed in the action carried out by the Holy Spirit–Gift in the economy of salvation. Through this sovereign freedom and gratuitousness, charisms are also given to the laity, as the Church’s history shows.’

Note, ‘antecedent’ - from a dictionary:
  • a thing that existed before or logically precedes another
  • preceding in time or order; previous or pre-existing.
To reiterate, ‘…this power (to attribute gifts) is not subject to any antecedent rule…’.

Or, '…to any particular discipline or to a plan of interventions established once and for all.’

Notice the words '…as He wills…’ and ‘…in the economy of salvation’.

Also, to note in this paragraph: '…as the Church history shows…’. So, gifts have been poured out since Revelation. We knew they would be because we were told this in the Gospels. So, it is not a new event. It has been ongoing for two thousand years, give or take.

If it was a new event, we wouldn’t have a phenomenal amount of saints, having lived throughout Salvation History.
 
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‘In addition, it should be kept in mind that the primary or principle aim of many charisms is not the personal sanctification of those who receive them, but the service of others and the welfare of the Church… in that it concerns the growth of Christ’s Mystical Body.’

…from the same document on ‘charisms’.

The word ‘docile’ is also mentioned.
 
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