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gnome
Guest
Annunciata,
I never said CCR is not Catholic, that was someone else.
Will pray for your Rosary group.
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I never said CCR is not Catholic, that was someone else.
Will pray for your Rosary group.
P
pnewton
Guest
I have read Acts, as have many others who do not believe in “baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.” Sometimes people did speak in tongues, sometimes they didn’t. The phrase still does not appear in the Bible, either in Acts, or the epistles.
And on Pentecost, everyone standing around heard in their own language. In the pentecostal tradition of the 20th century, when one speaks in tongues, noe everyone (nonChristians) understands what is being said.
Did you know of any Church teaching that supports your interpretation?
I do not care what anyone does as private devotion, but the idea that this is the Biblical way to receive the Holy Spirit is neither an historical or Traditional teaching of the Church.
R
RichT
Guest
Tongues are addressed also in the 1st book of Corinthians chapter 12 regarding the gifts of the Spirit. One of the gifts is tongues and another is the gift of translation. I for one don’t beleive you need to speak in tongues to show evidence of being baptised by the Holy Spirit. We all receive different gifts according to the 1st book of Corinthians. I was always taught to distinguish between being baptised by the Holy Spirit versus receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In other words, you can be baptised by the Holy Spirit, but may not be ready to receive the gifts or for that matter even recognize them. Charismatic or not, we have all found ourselves not ready to receive God’s word. We have all been in that position before.
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pnewton
Guest
I agree. This is the main reason why we must be slow to denounce anyone’s gift or form of spirituality as being inappropriate for a Catholic. We are the bride of Christ and have received (as a Church, not individually) all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. For this reason, whether the CCR is in decline or not as a movement, we can still trust that we will still receive His gifts.
A
Annunciata
Guest
Woops! Sorry…I guess it was because you used my quote:
God Bless, AnnunciataI agree…I don’t understand why he calls it un-Catholic when it has the approval of the Holy Father? What else about this does he not understand? If Rome approves, then so do I!
Annunciata
p.s. Thank you so much for the prayers
B
buffalo
Guest
I am sure Rome does not approve of some of the absurdity that can go on in some place.I agree…I don’t understand why he calls it un-Catholic when it has the approval of the Holy Father? What else about this does he not understand? If Rome approves, then so do I!
Annunciata
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RichT
Guest
This is an awfully broad statement. Maybe you can elaborate instead of just throwing a statement like this out there. If you are talking about qualified liturgical abuses, then yes I am also sure Rome wouldn’t approve. Being a charismatic does not mean we approve of abuses.
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gtrenewed
Guest
at this time I cannot give references which is why I was careful to say “hypothesis” about that paragraph except that I have read the writings of the early church Fathers and that quote “the ecstatics must be stopped” was in it, however, I do not have reference at hand but will post when I find it. Until then I faithfully adhere to the sacraments as taught in the CCC and subscribe to the leading of the National Service Committee of the Charismatic Renewal and the Bishops Ad Hoc Committee on the Charismatic Renewal that what is popularly called “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is the willed appropriating of the graces received in baptism and confirmation. Yet I cannot help but wonder why scripture in the book of acts shows water baptism, and then the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit followed by tongues (yet it does not call it confirmation but Jesus called it baptized with the Spirit), see acts1:5;acts8:12-17;acts1:16;acts19:1-6.
Also “Fanning the Flame - What Does BAptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?” a pamphlet published by the Liturgical Press ISBN0-8146-5013-9. Also, I will gladly e-mail you info when I get it - thanks for asking
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gtrenewed
Guest
I say it was the norm in the early church but no one should feel superior since it all is an unmerited (grace) gift of God to sinful man. As is the apostolic church founded on Peter for our protection and concludes that the Carismatic Renewal is beneficial for the church.
Acts 1:5 Jesus is speaking “for John baptized with wate, but you will be baptzed with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
The second part of the phrase “with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” is supported, not verbatum, but as the evidence in Acts 2:4; Acts 10:45,46; Acts 11:16,17; Acts 19:5,6
Also, Hilary of Poiters (c.315-367) says"We begin to have insight into the mysteries of faith, we are able to prophesy and to speak with wisdom. We become steadfast in hope and receive the gifts of healing…" He is speaking of the release of the Spirit during Christian initiation rites like the above scriptures. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.315-387) also writes similarly. Chrysostom laments “Every church had many who prophesied however the charisms are long gone.” These are doctors of the church. Also, Joseph Hazzaya (c. 710-713) a Syrian mystic writes of the “signs through which you will feel that the Spirit received in baptism is working in you, a flow of spiritual speech (tongues), a knowledge of both worlds (word of knowledge or wisdom), joy, jubilation, exultation, praise, glorification, songs, hymns, odes…”
Jesus said “baptized with the Holy Spirit” and the early church knew that it was two part, water in the name of Jesus and by the laying on of hands (or sovereignly by God as with Cornelius) to be baptized with the Spirit. Thanks for asking
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Binary_Paul
Guest
I think that there has been a decline in charismatic groups, but this was prophesied to the church. The way I understand it, there was an initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the church that was to build a holy people who will carry out the work of the springtime of evangelization that the Holy Father has called for. This has ebbed, but there is a new wave coming which will be unlike anything the church has seen in the last several hundred years.
I would point to the Catholic home schooling movement, which the Holy Father said was his one hope for the survival of the Catholic faith in America. Many of the home-schoolers that I know, were raised in the charismatic renewal. I believe it is our children that will do this work of evangelization. Read what JP2 has been saying about the role America is chosen to play in this work.
In one of our local parishes, the pastor has instituted prayer meetings in front of the Blessed Sacrament. These meetings involve adoration and charismatic praise followed by intercession. There has been over 60 converts per RCIA cycle since he has started this kind of prayer meeting. I would note that this is not a large parish. Many of the people who have joined the Catholic faith have commented on how holy these meetings have been to them. They are attracted to the person of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They can’t logically explain their reaction. I believe this is an example of what the charismatic movement should have been doing all along. Too many of the groups I am familiar with pulled back from the Church and it’s teachings and went down their own path. We need to bring the love of God and our experience with the gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit into the center of each parish and serve with humility and obedience.
I would point to the Catholic home schooling movement, which the Holy Father said was his one hope for the survival of the Catholic faith in America. Many of the home-schoolers that I know, were raised in the charismatic renewal. I believe it is our children that will do this work of evangelization. Read what JP2 has been saying about the role America is chosen to play in this work.
In one of our local parishes, the pastor has instituted prayer meetings in front of the Blessed Sacrament. These meetings involve adoration and charismatic praise followed by intercession. There has been over 60 converts per RCIA cycle since he has started this kind of prayer meeting. I would note that this is not a large parish. Many of the people who have joined the Catholic faith have commented on how holy these meetings have been to them. They are attracted to the person of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They can’t logically explain their reaction. I believe this is an example of what the charismatic movement should have been doing all along. Too many of the groups I am familiar with pulled back from the Church and it’s teachings and went down their own path. We need to bring the love of God and our experience with the gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit into the center of each parish and serve with humility and obedience.
R
robertaf
Guest
Greetings Church
I think that after the initial move of the Holy Spirit in the 1960s, we saw a GREAT MOUNTAIN TOP EXPERIENCE in the Catholic Church. We saw huge numbers of conversions. This was not a lot different from the conversons in Mexico after Our Lady of Guradalupe and the Miracles.
Holy Mother Church teaches us that we are forever in Spiritual Warfare. When God moves in the Church, there is a reaction from the evil one. In fact, we can usually tell when something is truly of God by the attack from satan afterwards.
That being said, “Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world.” God is the VICTOR, always.
This weekend, I was at a Charismatic Retreat in Northern California. Our area experienced a massive Renewal of the Holy Spirit in the early days of the Charismatic movement. It actually was in the forefront in the early days. We also exprerienced a powerful attack and the Holy Spirit was stifled for many years in this area.
Well, God is the winner, the Victor! Once again, “the Spirit is amovin”. God is still in control! We are seeing a new revival of the Holy Spirit.
CHARISMATIC RENEWAL IN DECLINE??? YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT…in the decline? I THINK NOT!
COME HOLY SPIRIT, LET YOUR FIRE FALL…
I think that after the initial move of the Holy Spirit in the 1960s, we saw a GREAT MOUNTAIN TOP EXPERIENCE in the Catholic Church. We saw huge numbers of conversions. This was not a lot different from the conversons in Mexico after Our Lady of Guradalupe and the Miracles.
Holy Mother Church teaches us that we are forever in Spiritual Warfare. When God moves in the Church, there is a reaction from the evil one. In fact, we can usually tell when something is truly of God by the attack from satan afterwards.
That being said, “Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world.” God is the VICTOR, always.
This weekend, I was at a Charismatic Retreat in Northern California. Our area experienced a massive Renewal of the Holy Spirit in the early days of the Charismatic movement. It actually was in the forefront in the early days. We also exprerienced a powerful attack and the Holy Spirit was stifled for many years in this area.
Well, God is the winner, the Victor! Once again, “the Spirit is amovin”. God is still in control! We are seeing a new revival of the Holy Spirit.
CHARISMATIC RENEWAL IN DECLINE??? YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT…in the decline? I THINK NOT!
COME HOLY SPIRIT, LET YOUR FIRE FALL…
J
Joanna
Guest
Saying the charismatic renewal is in decline is like saying the Holy Spirit is in decline. He blows where He will and when He will. Maybe you’ll be able to see it, because He wants you to, as people dance like David before the Ark and charisms abound. Or maybe you won’t, because He’s now in a whisper. But in the thunder or in the whisper, He makes new.
God’s not much for census-taking. He can, after all, revive dead bones and raise children from stones.
Glory to God now and forever.
Joanna
God’s not much for census-taking. He can, after all, revive dead bones and raise children from stones.
Glory to God now and forever.
Joanna
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Binary_Paul
Guest
I think the prophecy I read was given by Ralph Martin to the Church. I might be wrong though. I am not at all saying that the Holy Spirit is in decline, I think it is maturing into the sword of the Spirit that God will use to renew the Church. Read the letter Novu Millenia Enuente by the Holy Father, and also his writings on the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
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robertaf
Guest
AMEN!!!
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
"And I behold and the same horn made war with the saints. I beheld and the same horn He saw a horn rise up and made war with the saints and prevailed against them. They won. 7:13-14
FROM ST. LOUIS DE MONTFORT: "If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins ‘you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory.’ Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and will save your soul, if-- and mark well what I say-- if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins.”
FROM ST. LOUIS DE MONTFORT: "If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins ‘you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory.’ Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and will save your soul, if-- and mark well what I say-- if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins.”
J
John_of_Woking
Guest
I used to be a Charismatic. It was good for that stage of my life. Now I prefer to call upon the Holy Spirit in humble docile prayer such as the Rosary. I found sometimes it all descended into emotional psychobabble. That said the Charismatic movement is a force for good but it is hast o be handled with care.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
John of Woking:
P/S But remember Jesus is our devine physician. By His stripes may you be healed .
John it could have been a bad bout of esophagus gas. That will give you bouts of psychbabble. I do believe you have suffered from this disorder in the past.
P/S But remember Jesus is our devine physician. By His stripes may you be healed .
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
tru_dvotion said:
Hi Tru. Where are you getting that verse from[7,13-14.]?? Jesus Christ left us the Holy Spirit.[John 15.vs 26] The Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will instruct you in everything. Praise God!!.
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gnome
Guest
A charismatic parish with 7000 families? Is this a part of City of the Lord which I read from CatholicSun:
"City of the Lord members celebrate 30 years of ministry with Mass on September 30
In a culture ever compromising its values, this lay community of families, singles, priests and consecrated persons aims at “renewal of the Church and the world” with a Spirit-centered approach. For three decades, members have committed themselves to serving each other and the Phoenix Diocese with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Known as the People of Joy until 1984, City of the Lord evolved from the Charismatic Renewal of 1967. In 1990, they became members of the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships, a private association of lay faithful. Today they are a thriving community of more than 700 members spread out among five California and Arizona branches."
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gnome
Guest
CR is just a movement, the “Spirit is movin’ all over” for thousand years before CR. Recently when the Holy Father warns a country about their low, declining Mass attendance. He’s not talking about the Holy Spirit (is present in every Mass), but about faithfuls following the wrong spirit.
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