Charismatic Renewal.

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How many times God speaks timely to us in His Word, which providentially coincides with our daily lives. If today, we hear his voice, let us not harden our hearts as did those in the two readings yesterday. His holy rebuke justly corrects those who would put their own seal upon the working of His Holy Spirit and pronounce to others whether or not it is of God.

Let’s start with the gospel: Mk 9:38-43, 45, 47-48
At that time, John said to Jesus,
"Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name,
and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us."
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him.
There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name
who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.

The first reading was similar: Nm 11:25-29
The LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to Moses.
Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses,
the LORD bestowed it on the seventy elders;
and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied.

Now two men, one named Eldad and the other Medad,
were not in the gathering but had been left in the camp.
They too had been on the list, but had not gone out to the tent;
yet the spirit came to rest on them also,
and they prophesied in the camp.

So, when a young man quickly told Moses,
"Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp, "
Joshua, son of Nun, who from his youth had been Moses’ aide, said,
"Moses, my lord, stop them."
But Moses answered him,
"Are you jealous for my sake?
Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets!
Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!"
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.
 
Sirach2 said:
How many times God speaks timely to us in His Word, which providentially coincides with our daily lives. If today, we hear his voice, let us not harden our hearts as did those in the two readings yesterday. His holy rebuke justly corrects those who would put their own seal upon the working of His Holy Spirit and pronounce to others whether or not it is of God.

Let’s start with the gospel: Mk 9:38-43, 45, 47-48
At that time, John said to Jesus,
"Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name,
and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us."
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him.
There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name
who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.

The first reading was similar: Nm 11:25-29
The LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to Moses.
Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses,
the LORD bestowed it on the seventy elders;
and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied.

Now two men, one named Eldad and the other Medad,
were not in the gathering but had been left in the camp.
They too had been on the list, but had not gone out to the tent;
yet the spirit came to rest on them also,
and they prophesied in the camp.

So, when a young man quickly told Moses,
"Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp, "
Joshua, son of Nun, who from his youth had been Moses’ aide, said,
"Moses, my lord, stop them."
But Moses answered him,
"Are you jealous for my sake?
Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets!
Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!"
Let him who has ears to hear, hear.
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Is what is happening these days prophesying?
 
TrueLight said:
Is what is happening these days prophesying?
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Those with descernment can help.

Having been to several Catholic charismatic conferences where the Eucharist is truly the center of devotion, I can say that I have been deeply moved and inspired to better things by hearing certain people prophesy in the assembly.

We need to sift out what is not exactly correct, and hold fast to what is true.

This is necessary at all times, not only at charismatic gatherings.
 
Don’t forget, Truelight, that we are speaking of CATHOLIC Charismatic Renewal - NOT pentecostal imitations. I hope you do not judge based on what your grandmother was involved in. Yes, I noted your opposition in the Spirituality thread. Pray about this, please, and be aware of the disservice you may be doing by joining the naysayers of the old and new testament readings.

As the other thread mentioned, Fr. Cantalamessa was appointed to be Papal Household Preacher - and he is very much a charismatic. Do you believe the Vatican was misguided in their choice? We test the tree by the fruit, and his fruit and that of many in CCR is very holy. Ralph Martin was one of the original Duquesne participants, and his work on EWTN and elsewhere through his wonderful books (The Joy of Full Surrender, et al) is clearly bearing the seal of the Holy Spirit. 🙂
 
Sirach2 said:
Don’t forget, Truelight, that we are speaking of CATHOLIC Charismatic Renewal - NOT pentecostal imitations. I hope you do not judge based on what your grandmother was involved in. Yes, I noted your opposition in the Spirituality thread. Pray about this, please, and be aware of the disservice you may be doing by joining the naysayers of the old and new testament readings.

As the other thread mentioned, Fr. Cantalamessa was appointed to be Papal Household Preacher - and he is very much a charismatic. Do you believe the Vatican was misguided in their choice? We test the tree by the fruit, and his fruit and that of many in CCR is very holy. Ralph Martin was one of the original Duquesne participants, and his work on EWTN and elsewhere through his wonderful books (The Joy of Full Surrender, et al) is clearly bearing the seal of the Holy Spirit. 🙂
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I believe in her wisdom, the Church allows certain movements if it means some will return to the fold.
 
Dorothy said:
Those with descernment can help.

Having been to several Catholic charismatic conferences where the Eucharist is truly the center of devotion, I can say that I have been deeply moved and inspired to better things by hearing certain people prophesy in the assembly.

We need to sift out what is not exactly correct, and hold fast to what is true.

This is necessary at all times, not only at charismatic gatherings.
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I agree discernment is very important. But what of those who lack discernment? Can not they easily be led astray by those who teach that speaking in tongues/ prophesying is the next rung on the spiritual ladder? I have seen this implication in the Pentecostal movement and I’ve seen it implied on this forum.
 
You will not understand, Truelight, because it is not the way you are being called by God to walk. Those who are not gifted by God to grasp the spirit of CCR ought not to pronounce about what they do not know. It is for the Church to guide us in that respect, and as Melchior remarked, She has not spoken against it. That being said, who are any of us to counter the Magisterium and clergy who have the vocational call to make such judgments?

In a similar way, I am not called to participate in the TLM, as you are. Yet I won’t sit here in judgment of your spiritual walk, and I don’t understand it either. It is not my vocation.

Not saying you do this, but many armchair chutzpahs feel very theologically correct in dismissing the work of the Spirit. One has to marvel that God allows them to speak against it with their tongues unbridled.
 
Melchior said:
As a heads up, the Magisteruim of the Holy Catholic Church disagrees with you.
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Does the Magisteruim of the Holy Catholic Church say that the Charismatic Renewal is both Catholic and traditional?

I rather think it’s another novelty for which precedent is being scrabbled for in this forum.

e.g., the papal preacher, some addresses from popes, some saints who exhibited similar phenomena (in a different context). Then you have to go all way back to the original Pentecost; where the Apostles exhibited abilites which Charismatics don’t have: the ability to address an audience of different nations simultaneously and have them understand you; the ability to have their shadow fall upon the sick and heal them.

My view is that hungry Catholics, in the desert after the 60’s, discovered a movement set up to offer Spiritual Experiences ™ on demand.
 
My view is that hungry Catholics, in the desert after the 60’s, discovered a movement set up to offer Spiritual Experiences ™ on demand.
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Thank you for qualifying that it is simply “your” view. However, it is expressed without wisdom or true knowledge. Many in CCR do not receive “spiritual experiences” when they commit their lives more fully to the Holy Spirit. Nor do they ask for them, in all humility, for to do so would be an affront to the very Spirit to whom they commit. How little you understand. Do you think God is going to bless you with His truth in this regard while your mind is closed and while you are not vocationally being called to it?

“Do not prevent them. He that is not against us is for us.”
 
TrueLight said:
I agree discernment is very important. But what of those who lack discernment? Can not they easily be led astray by those who teach that speaking in tongues/ prophesying is the next rung on the spiritual ladder? I have seen this implication in the Pentecostal movement and I’ve seen it implied on this forum.
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We all need to pray for discernment so that we recognize and separate the truth from the false. When some lack discernment then those who have it can correct them, because, yes, they can lead others astray who do not see the whole truth.

Praying in tongues can be helpful…I see it as possibly being a first rung on the ladder, not at all with the higher forms of prayer. Some have been led to deeper forms of prayer by starting off this way. Some may just stay stuck in it and do not venture further.

I do know that deep interior prayer (contemplation) is higher on the ladder, and it can enable us to be open to the Lord so that he can purify us more and more from what is of the world, and our sins and faults.

I thank the Lord for the Doctors of the Church!
 
Dorothy said:
I do know that deep interior prayer (contemplation) is higher on the ladder, and it can enable us to be open to the Lord so that he can purify us more and more from what is of the world, and our sins and faults.

I thank the Lord for the Doctors of the Church!
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👍
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Does the Magisteruim of the Holy Catholic Church say that the Charismatic Renewal is both Catholic and traditional?

I rather think it’s another novelty for which precedent is being scrabbled for in this forum.
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I don’t know that the Magisterium makes statements about what is traditional or not, in the same way it pronounces on what is truly Catholic. Traditional is not a virtue or a state of holiness etc.

Any practice can veer into idolatry. Seeking to summon God through our own pride of outward signs… for ex. tongues, gestures, vestments, pipe organ, Latin… liturgical observances of all kinds
-could be- idolatrous if they are not connected to the underlying reality. Whether they fall into a category like “traditional” or “charismatic” is kinda beside the point.
 
Why is a thread about Charismatic Renewal on the Traditional Catholicism forum ?
 
Sirach2 said:
You will not understand, Truelight, because it is not the way you are being called by God to walk. Those who are not gifted by God to grasp the spirit of CCR ought not to pronounce about what they do not know. It is for the Church to guide us in that respect, and as Melchior remarked, She has not spoken against it. That being said, who are any of us to counter the Magisterium and clergy who have the vocational call to make such judgments?

In a similar way, I am not called to participate in the TLM, as you are. Yet I won’t sit here in judgment of your spiritual walk, and I don’t understand it either. It is not my vocation.

Not saying you do this, but many armchair chutzpahs feel very theologically correct in dismissing the work of the Spirit. One has to marvel that God allows them to speak against it with their tongues unbridled.
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I’m a convert as well and Truelight is SPOT ON- this stuff can get BAD. Simply slapping a “Catholic” label on someone babbling on senselessly in direct contradiction to Biblical explanation on acceptable practice for such speaking in tongues is DANGEROUS.

Having not studied the theology of the CCR, I’m hesitant to dismiss it outright in totality. I do suspect however that the theology in fact, at least at the laity level, is not only deficient but anti-Catholic in its statements (not intent… I hope).

Nothing good can come from people indiscriminately seeking signs and wonders via that which even they don’t understand and have no recourse to do so, nor can anyone else understand. But I’m sure the answer is “oh… God understands”. snort

This is straight out of the Protestant Evangelical milieu and it’s absolutely dangerous. It’s playing with fire and I suspect more get spiritually burned than purged:

youtube.com/watch?v=eG_ENeX3Xxo

“CCR has historical roots in the Pentecostalism” @ 1:30ish… yikes! BAD! What concord hath Christ with Belial?

Thank you Jeeeeeeeesus for the TLM. Aaaaaamen! Hallelujah!
 
TrueLight said:
I’m just as perplexed as you. 🤷
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Think about it, TL. I remember a rather lengthly thread of yours that discussed Dominican spirituality. Others have discussed Opus Dei, SSPX, FSSP, OF liturgies, etc. This, too, is a spiritual movement in the Church. Not everything here is required to be on the TLM. 😉

That being said, it is up to the moderator. Some have put moratoriums on this topic. Can anyone guess why? Read Marmax’s post.

To each their own. I certainly have no intention of explaining CCR to those who will bad-mouth it. Bad-mouthing will not cause the CCR to be put on a shelf until they approve of it. Once again, here is a good reflection from Church Militant that bears on this topic.
Nowhere in the Word of God am I (or you) given the right and authority to pluck up the growing plants of the seeds sown by the Holy Spirit so that we can check their roots to see if they are growing the way we think they should be.

And consider: What happens when you yank a plant up (even a healthy one) so that you can see it’s roots like that? Yeah…it withers and dies. You kill it.
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MarMax said:
**Having not studied the theology of the CCR, I’m hesitant to dismiss it outright in totality. **
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I think it’s safe to say, after reading the rest of your post, that this is a failed attempt at “charity”, because you showed zero hesitation in mocking and making false claims.
 
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