Charismatic Renewal.

[Sirach2]

Truelight:

There are movements that are allowed but clearly have some problems like the neo-catechumenical way. These movements stir up excitement for the faith for some and that is a good thing. Why does Holy Mother Church allow it?

Again, we need to recognize that the foot is not the hand, and there are diverse movements within the Church, each having their own ministerial niché. Are you familiar with Pope Benedict XVI’s address to them? Do you respect this conservative Pope’s wisdom and opinion? Are you able to submit to it?

 

[Ohana]

Again, we need to recognize that the foot is not the hand, and there are diverse movements within the Church, each having their own ministerial niché. Are you familiar with Pope Benedict XVI’s address to them? Do you respect this conservative Pope’s wisdom and opinion? Are you able to submit to it?

Thank you for this Sirach. We do need to remember and celebrate the fact that we are a diverse Church, not all in lock step with each other, but all aiming at the same goal - Union with God in the Trinity.

It has been important to me to clash a bit with others on this particular forum - kind of knocking off some of my rough edges. We really do have different kinds of spirituality - some of us are more emotional and some more intellectual. Some more merciful, and some more legalistic. Together, we come to a balance I think, if we continue to seek the face of the Lord together.

 

[ltwin]

Reading on in 1st Corinthians, Paul clearly indicates that speaking in tongues is of far less value than solid Christian teaching and preaching: “nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” (1st Cor. 14: 19).

Christ never spoke in tongues- every phrase He uttered held deep theological or spiritual meaning, or was intended to instruct, to heal, or to uplift. And when He sent the Paraclete on Pentecost, the words uttered by the apostles speaking in tongues were clearly understandable to their listeners- no interpretation by the apostles was required and it was not a case of glossolalia. Somewhere between then and now, things have gotten a little bit fuzzy.

Ok. None of that changes the fact that when someone speaks in a tongue in the church, per Paul’s instructions, there should be an interpretation. So when charismatics do follow the gift of speaking in tongues with interpretation, they should not be criticized for not being as “impressive” (to quote a previous poster) as the apostles on the day of Pentecost. If you are interpreting a message given in an unknown language according to apostolic instruction, why should you be criticized for not being “impressive” enough?

 

[Richca]

Reading on in 1st Corinthians, Paul clearly indicates that speaking in tongues is of far less value than solid Christian teaching and preaching: “nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” (1st Cor. 14: 19).

Christ never spoke in tongues- every phrase He uttered held deep theological or spiritual meaning, or was intended to instruct, to heal, or to uplift. And when He sent the Paraclete on Pentecost, the words uttered by the apostles speaking in tongues were clearly understandable to their listeners- no interpretation by the apostles was required and it was not a case of glossolalia. Somewhere between then and now, things have gotten a little bit fuzzy.

Faithdancer: good points here. I’d also like to point out that when the disciples asked Jesus “Lord, teach us to pray,” Jesus taught them the Our Father.

“The Lord’s Prayer is the most perfect of prayers… In it we ask, not only for all the things we can rightly desire, but also in the sequence that they should be desired. This prayer not only teaches us to ask for things, but also in what order we should desire them.” (CCC #2763).

 

[Ohana]

When we were in our early twenties, my two sisters and I went to visit a random church.

I don’t know what the denomination was but apparently, it considered itself to be “apostolic” in the sense that according to them, they followed the Bible exactly.

At the altar call, they asked if anyone believed and wanted to be baptized. To my dismay, my youngest sister ran up to the altar and said she wanted to be baptized.

She was baptized right there and then they whisked her up to the “upper room” to “await the gifts of the Holy Spirit”. My other sister and I were left in the sanctuary so we found a way to sneak upstairs.

We peeked into this room where there were about 20 people awaiting the “coming of the Holy Spirit”. There were people there trying to teach people to speak in tongues. I saw people crying and praying for the Spirit to come down. I saw a woman tell my sister, “Just say ‘ma ma masiya’, first slowly then faster and faster.”

Unbelievable.

Well, had to chuckle. Let me just say at the outset that due to my profession, I am a bit uncomfortable with people babbling away un-understandably. I also have always had a bit of a problem with giving up control. So - when I went through Life in the Spirit and it came time to ask for a “gift”, mine was ABT - anything but tongues! Fast forward to 30 years later and I got more comfortable with the idea, but in talking with some people in the CCR who are acknowledged leaders, they let me know that the Spirit was not going to just “take over”. First of all you have to desire the gift, be willing to accept it if the Spirit chooses. Secondly, it is helpful to start some nonsense syllables while someone is praying with you - in tongues or not. What happened for me is that at some point, I was not particularly in control of what I was saying. The Spirit is gentle: I knew I could stop at any time, but chose not to do so. What is really important to acknowledge is that at some point the “I” disappeared and the Spirit took over. Praise God!

I still do not consider myself “experienced”, but I am grateful for the gift when it occurs. I find some increased peacefulness. For me, it has started kind of an internal cascade to surrender to the Will of God. No, I do not practice in the shower as was suggested. I tend to wait until I am in a secure community of people like at a conference or prayer group.

 

[Denise1957]

Here’s a good article on CCR, called, “Seven reasons why the Charismatic Renewal does not foster deep spirituality.”

It seems a fair analysis from a more traditional perspective, and the author does say that he does not want to attack or denigrate those who are attached to CCR.

In her great wisdom, which I don’t always understand, Holy Mother Church does allow CCR, with guidelines for the participants (I think). I don’t want to judge anyone who participates in CCR, but I think that the Church does allow us to show what the concerns are with CCR. Certainly there are some here who voice strong concerns about the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Hopefully we can address our concerns with charity.

Link to article:

unamsanctamcatholicam.com/component/content/article/82-spirtuality/214-seven-reasons-why-the-charismatic-renewal-does-not-foster-deep-catholic-spirituality.html

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[Melchior_1]

Here’s a good article on CCR, called, “Seven reasons why the Charismatic Renewal does not foster deep spirituality.”

It seems a fair analysis from a more traditional perspective, and the author does say that he does not want to attack or denigrate those who are attached to CCR.

In her great wisdom, which I don’t always understand, Holy Mother Church does allow CCR, with guidelines for the participants (I think). I don’t want to judge anyone who participates in CCR, but I think that the Church does allow us to show what the concerns are with CCR. Certainly there are some here who voice strong concerns about the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Hopefully we can address our concerns with charity.

Link to article:

unamsanctamcatholicam.com/component/content/article/82-spirtuality/214-seven-reasons-why-the-charismatic-renewal-does-not-foster-deep-catholic-spirituality.html

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Over-emphasis on the emotional experiences create dependency

I never understand this, since the externals and emotionalism that people highlight for the EF could be just as applicable.

Less appreciation for tradition

This is news to me, most of the charismatics I know (myself included) engage in several “traditional” devotional practices.

I have no issue with people raising concerns. I do have an issue with being labeled a heretic, an occultist, and less of a Catholic.

 

[Ohana]

How does one define “deep spirituality”.? Seriously. I would think that there are some universal attributes, but also some germane to a particular kind of spirituality - contemplative, Charismatic, esthetic, etc. This might be a good thought for a new thread.

 

[Sirach2]

Denise, I respectfully submit that this is simply a blog with a blogger’s viewpoint, and is not typical of the many worldwide members of CCR. Have you seen the positive mention in AAA here about Renewal Ministries in connectrion with charismatics? Yes, this is Ralph Martin, the author of “Fulfillment of All Desire” which delves into very spiritual material from both St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross. Hardly from an immature person with “emotional dependency.”

Maybe you would benefit from reading St. John of the Cross, for he wrote about the purification from excess sensual attachment that God needs to bestow - not on beginners - but more specifically, upon “proficients.” It is to be expected that there may be some initial fervor in the beginners, but some of these communities have very mature members who give much fruitful service in the Church. Their motto? “He must increase, I must decrease.”

Finally, let us all remember the scripture where Jesus said, “If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Lk. 11:13
Included in the word “those” would not only mean Catholics, but those of other faiths who love the Lord and pray for His Spirit to help them on their journey. Too many Catholics remind me of the jealous apostles in Sunday’s reading who wanted Jesus to restrict outsiders from ministry in His Name.

Once again, sadly, we see over-exuberant traditionalists attempting to delegate how the Holy Spirit should bestow His gifts in accord with their human expectation of how they should operate, and upon whom they believe is worthy of them.

 

[Denise1957]

Over-emphasis on the emotional experiences create dependency

I never understand this, since the externals and emotionalism that people highlight for the EF could be just as applicable.

Less appreciation for tradition

This is news to me, most of the charismatics I know (myself included) engage in several “traditional” devotional practices.

I have no issue with people raising concerns. I do have an issue with being labeled a heretic, an occultist, and less of a Catholic.

You absolutely have the right to defend yourself if you have been told that you are a heretic or occultist. But are you sure that you personally have been labled as such? Perhaps some here were addressing concerns about the bigger picture in regards to CCR, or some aspects of it.

Certainly those of us who are attached to the EF have had to continually defend our position from the criticisms those who do not want to see an expansion of the EF throughout the Church, or who have a problem with the EF in general, right?

The article is an opinion of one person, who is not attached to the CCR, but who has had a lot of contact throughout his diocese of those who have participated in CCR. Certainly those who are attached to CCR are not nesessarily going to agree with his views.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

“This type of worship isn’t for me but of it brings people to the Church then I’m fine with it”

I once went to a charismatic retreat and I felt really good. The part that I did not understand was the person indicated that she felt I had the gifts of tongues. Then started to try to teach me how to speak in tongues…I do not think that it is something taught, rather a gift from the holy spirit. That is where they lost me…

When we were in our early twenties, my two sisters and I went to visit a random church.

I don’t know what the denomination was but apparently, it considered itself to be “apostolic” in the sense that according to them, they followed the Bible exactly.

At the altar call, they asked if anyone believed and wanted to be baptized. To my dismay, my youngest sister ran up to the altar and said she wanted to be baptized.

She was baptized right there and then they whisked her up to the “upper room” to “await the gifts of the Holy Spirit”. My other sister and I were left in the sanctuary so we found a way to sneak upstairs.

We peeked into this room where there were about 20 people awaiting the “coming of the Holy Spirit”. There were people there trying to teach people to speak in tongues. I saw people crying and praying for the Spirit to come down. I saw a woman tell my sister, “Just say ‘ma ma masiya’, first slowly then faster and faster.”

Unbelievable.

Yes, it’s something that no one should have to teach you to do. I’m not saying God never ever will give someone the gift of tongues, God can do anything, I won’t put limits on Him, but I think speaking in tongues is exploited kind of like how miracles can and do happen but so many so called preachers claim to do all of these miracles and it’s all just so exploited. They take something that God has done and then exploit it to death. Like snake handlers. Everyone is not given the gift to do miracles and miracles do happen but not in the way that it’s exploited by some who seek after miracles too much, or have those miracle revivals for the showmanship of it all. It’s like when God had one of those animals speak in the Bible that one time and then someone exploits it and people start claiming their pets can talk after they prayed over them or something and now suddenly everyone’s pet can speak. Then they justify it by saying God did it in the Bible, yes God did move like that once and if He wants He can and will do it again, I won’t put limits on God, but it’s silly to exploit it to the point where everyone brings their pets to church to get them to talk. Just using an example.

 

[TrueLight]

Secondly, it is helpful to start some nonsense syllables while someone is praying with you - in tongues or not. .

Ohana, my dear.

Re-read this sentence objectively. Does it seem correct to you?

 

[TrueLight]

I just want to say this. I’m obviously not the mod, so this is my opinion.

If people do not want to read other people’s viewpoints on the CCR, they should not post it on a forum that is likely to have objections to it. Why not post it on the spirituality forum?

I’m not speaking to the OP because I don’t know why he or she started it here. However, some of the implications that some of us are evil or disobedient to the magisterium is unfair considering where this is posted.

 

[Melchior_1]

I just want to say this. I’m obviously not the mod, so this is my opinion.

If people do not want to read other people’s viewpoints on the CCR, they should not post it on a forum that is likely to have objections to it. Why not post it on the spirituality forum?

I’m not speaking to the OP because I don’t know why he or she started it here. However, some of the implications that some of us are evil or disobedient to the magisterium is unfair considering where this is posted.

The thing is, I think there can be some good that comes from talking about it. Getting a better understanding can only help both groups see that neither is the enemy. I like what Denise said earlier, about how people should be able to voice concerns. Voicing concerns and having them addressed, there’s nothing wrong with that IMHO.

That said, you contrast that with Roger implying that the CCR and those within are essentially practicing the occult, or that members of the CCR are somehow less Catholic than others, and of course people are going to feel like their backs are against the walls.

 

[Denise1957]

I just want to say this. I’m obviously not the mod, so this is my opinion.

If people do not want to read other people’s viewpoints on the CCR, they should not post it on a forum that is likely to have objections to it. Why not post it on the spirituality forum?

I’m not speaking to the OP because I don’t know why he or she started it here. However, some of the implications that some of us are evil or disobedient to the magisterium is unfair considering where this is posted.

Well said, TL.

 

[Sirach2]

If people do not want to read other people’s viewpoints on the CCR, they should not post it on a forum that is likely to have objections to it. Why not post it on the spirituality forum?

You are well aware that it was recently posted in Spirituality. Did that stop you from voicing your opposition there? It won’t stop others, either. There is a negative mindset with regard to wanting feet to be hands.

I’m not speaking to the OP because I don’t know why he or she started it here. However, some of the implications that some of us are evil or disobedient to the magisterium is unfair considering where this is posted.

The OP is probably a traditionalist at heart and thought a lawful movement in the church is capable of being discussed here. It seems Mr. Casey has permitted it, yet you have voiced your dissent to it a few times already.

Yes, I saw those implications – primarily directed toward loyal Catholics who happen to have a calling to belong to CCR. The more insulting designation of “occultist” has also been imputed.

 

[mlz]

When we were in our early twenties, my two sisters and I went to visit a random church.

I don’t know what the denomination was but apparently, it considered itself to be “apostolic” in the sense that according to them, they followed the Bible exactly.

At the altar call, they asked if anyone believed and wanted to be baptized. To my dismay, my youngest sister ran up to the altar and said she wanted to be baptized.

She was baptized right there and then they whisked her up to the “upper room” to “await the gifts of the Holy Spirit”. My other sister and I were left in the sanctuary so we found a way to sneak upstairs.

We peeked into this room where there were about 20 people awaiting the “coming of the Holy Spirit”. There were people there trying to teach people to speak in tongues. I saw people crying and praying for the Spirit to come down. I saw a woman tell my sister, “ust say ‘ma ma masiya’, first slowly then faster and faster.”

Unbelievable.

Oh my, abuse can be found everywhere. It does not make something necessarily wrong as does abuse in any other situation. ( ex. Priest scandles don’t make Catholicism wrong)

Mlz

 

[Sirach2]

Dear mlz,

Please note this wording in Truelight’s post that you just referenced.

When we were in our early twenties, my two sisters and I went to visit a random church. I don’t know what the denomination was . . .

The “abuse,” as you phrased it, was not observed in a Catholic church. Unfortunately, it is possible that experience has negatively colored Truelight’s perception of Catholic Charismatics.

 

[TrueLight]

You are well aware that it was recently posted in Spirituality. Did that stop you from voicing your opposition there? It won’t stop others, either. There is a negative mindset with regard to wanting feet to be hands.

The point is, I do have my perception and I’ve tried to express my issues with the CCR as respectfully as possible.

I am willing to discuss it with others, but you tend to get very negative very quickly and quite honestly, it creeps me out when someone starts referring to what I said in other threads.

 

[Sirach2]

I am willing to discuss it with others, but you tend to get very negative very quickly and quite honestly, it creeps me out when someone starts referring to what I said in other threads.

Creeps you out? Oh boy … talk about negative!

Consider, TL … you expressed the wish that people would be limited to posting about CCR here in Traditional Catholics Forum and should post in Spirituality instead.
THEY are not free, in your opinion, to post in TC, but YOU, a traditionalist, are free to post anywhere. It was a rude point that makes no sense to me.