Charismatic Renewal.

[Faithdancer]

I’ll second this

And I will say Amen to that!

 

[LeeGrizz]

Creeps you out? Oh boy … talk about negative!

Consider, TL … you expressed the wish that people would be limited to posting about CCR here in Traditional Catholics Forum and should post in Spirituality instead.
THEY are not free, in your opinion, to post in TC, but YOU, a traditionalist, are free to post anywhere. It was a rude point that makes no sense to me.

i45.tinypic.com/2s60l75.png

You ever speak in Latin tongues…?

What’s so EF about the CCR? Nothing, really…

 

[Ohana]

Ohana, my dear.

Re-read this sentence objectively. Does it seem correct to you?

Yes, it does seem correct to me. My meaning of nonsense syllables has to do with the fact that this is a designation for incomplete words. It is a technical term I have used professionally. It may not have fit here, but is definitely not with the meaning you seem to impute. Perhaps here I simply should have said,“make some sounds”. It is kind of like learning the Hail Mary word by word and repeating over time before one can actually pray them underneath and supporting meditation on a mystery. There is a process of learning in praying in tongues as there is in the discernment and confidence in other gifts of the Spirit.

I have tried assiduously to stay out of the TC forum. It has been made clear to me that I am not one and am not welcome here. Perhaps a mod can move the thread.

 

[Sirach2]

Ohana,

Please consider the source and do not allow those remarks to chase you away. I have seen a number of snide comments that serve only to derail this thread. Their efforts to close the thread, or make it go away, serves their own egos, but our moderator is very kindly and will deal with it.

By the way, thank you for your gracious comment to me earlier in the thread. :thankyou:

 

[Denise1957]

It is kind of like learning the Hail Mary word by word and repeating over time before one can actually pray them underneath and supporting meditation on a mystery. There is a process of learning in praying in tongues as there is in the discernment and confidence in other gifts of the Spirit.

I recall in a homily given by a traditional (FSSP) priest a few years ago on the subject of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost. I don’t remember much of it, but I clearly remember that he said that we are not to ask or pray for the gift of tongues. I also recall that he said that the Holy Ghost can give this to anyone, though, and that the person does not even have to be in a state a grace to speak in tongues. But since he said that we are not to ask for or pray for this, I take what he said seriously. Others may disagree with this, of course.

 

[TrueLight]

Creeps you out? Oh boy … talk about negative!

Consider, TL … you expressed the wish that people would be limited to posting about CCR here in Traditional Catholics Forum and should post in Spirituality instead.
THEY are not free, in your opinion, to post in TC, but YOU, a traditionalist, are free to post anywhere. It was a rude point that makes no sense to me.

Have you noticed that most of the charismatics or those who support them have been pretty reasonable? From the beginning you’ve taken it up a notch.

This will be my last post to you on this thread.

Thank you for this opportunity to grow on holiness.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, it does seem correct to me. My meaning of nonsense syllables has to do with the fact that this is a designation for incomplete words. It is a technical term I have used professionally. It may not have fit here, but is definitely not with the meaning you seem to impute. Perhaps here I simply should have said,“make some sounds”. It is kind of like learning the Hail Mary word by word and repeating over time before one can actually pray them underneath and supporting meditation on a mystery. There is a process of learning in praying in tongues as there is in the discernment and confidence in other gifts of the Spirit.

I have tried assiduously to stay out of the TC forum. It has been made clear to me that I am not one and am not welcome here. Perhaps a mod can move the thread.

Ohara, I’m not going to say I understand about the nonsense syllables but I hear you.

Asking whether a post belongs in a thread is a far cry from asking if someone is traditional. Please do not let others escalate this into what it is not. That spirit is not of God. We can agree to disagree and still be brothers and sisters.

As for me, I think I will bow out of this thread.

 

[Sirach2]

I recall in a homily given by a traditional (FSSP) priest a few years ago on the subject of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost. I don’t remember much of it, but I clearly remember that he said that we are not to ask or pray for the gift of tongues. I also recall that he said that the Holy Ghost can give this to anyone, though, and that the person does not even have to be in a state a grace to speak in tongues. But since he said that we are not to ask for or pray for this,** I take what he said seriously.** Others may disagree with this, of course.

That is your right to take it seriously, Denise. But to elevate an isolated homily from a traditional priest, together with the article you posted earlier from a blogger, and present their comments as gospel truth, does not serve the community here. It trumps the authority of the Church, which man is not permitted to do and remain in unity with her teachings.

How about listening to a Monsignor? Would that help? His narrative about the CCR is very well written and explains much of the incorrect misgivings that uninformed people perpetuate. By the way, I do have the book Monsignor cited below, and if you would like, I can post the theology from my copy.
14. Even the charismatic gifts, as taught in “Pentecostal” literature, are listed by Adolph Tanquerey in his *Spiritual Life *(a text well-known to priests and religious). He explains the nine charismatic gifts and expects them to be manifested as the soul makes its way to God.
For the record, I do not belong to the CCR, but I respect the calling that some have received to belong to it. One more comment from Monsignor before I close:　
22. IN WHAT SENSE IS THIS A “MOVEMENT” IN THE CHURCH"?
It is certainly not a movement in the usual sense. Usually a movement arises from the brilliant ideas of its founder or from the clever organization of large groups of people, or from some other humanly explainable, sociological factors. The history of Catholic Pentecostalism, its origins, spontaneous growth, spiritual powers and scriptural basis, indicate that this movement is not the work of men but of God, truly renewing His Church in a very special hour of crises.

 

[Denise1957]

That is your right to take it seriously, Denise. But to elevate an isolated homily from a traditional priest, together with the article you posted earlier from a blogger, and present their comments as gospel truth, does not serve the community here. It trumps the authority of the Church, which man is not permitted to do and remain in unity with her teachings.

How about listening to a Monsignor? Would that help? His narrative about the CCR is very well written and explains much of the incorrect misgivings that uninformed people perpetuate. By the way, I do have the book Monsignor cited below, and if you would like, I can post the theology from my copy.
14. Even the charismatic gifts, as taught in “Pentecostal” literature, are listed by Adolph Tanquerey in his *Spiritual Life *(a text well-known to priests and religious). He explains the nine charismatic gifts and expects them to be manifested as the soul makes its way to God.
For the record, I do not belong to the CCR, but I respect the calling that some have received to belong to it. One more comment from Monsignor before I close:　
22. IN WHAT SENSE IS THIS A “MOVEMENT” IN THE CHURCH"?
It is certainly not a movement in the usual sense. Usually a movement arises from the brilliant ideas of its founder or from the clever organization of large groups of people, or from some other humanly explainable, sociological factors. The history of Catholic Pentecostalism, its origins, spontaneous growth, spiritual powers and scriptural basis, indicate that this movement is not the work of men but of God, truly renewing His Church in a very special hour of crises.

I don’t think that what the traditional priest said trumps the authority of the Church, because I don’t think that the Church has spoken doctrinally on the CCR as yet. And even if the Church does, as some future date, speak doctrinally on the subject, I think that Catholics will be allowed to disagree. To say that the afore-mentioned priest is not in unity with Church teachings is inaccurate. Popes have given their personal approval to CCR (which is not the same as Church teaching) and some CCR groups do have canonical status. As CCR is relatively new, the Church hasn’t defined it yet doctrinally. Unitil then, I’m gonna go with what the priest said in the homily. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Sirach2]

I don’t think that what the traditional priest said trumps the authority of the Church, because I don’t think that the Church has spoken doctrinally on the CCR as yet.

This is a clear example of what I referred to as “uninformed misgivings that people perpetuate.”

From the Vatican
"The Directory is a response to the invitation extended by John Paul II to the Pontifical Council for the Laity in *Christifideles Laici *to draw up a list of associations which have received the “official recognition and explicit approval" of the Holy See.”

You’ll find the Charismatic Communities listed in #5 of the Directory. And here’s another less official source, but worthy of note, nevertheless.
Pope John Paul II, in particular, made a number of statements on the movement. On November 30, 1990, The Pontifical Council for the Laity promulgated the decree which inaugurated the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities and Fellowships. Brian Smith of Brisbane, elected President of the Executive of the Fraternity, called the declaration the most significant event in the history of the charismatic renewal since the 1975 Holy Year international conference and the acknowledgment it received from Pope Paul VI at that time, saying ‘It is the first time that the Renewal has had formal, canonical recognition by the Vatican.’

And even if the Church does, as some future date, speak doctrinally on the subject, I think that Catholics will be allowed to disagree. To say that the afore-mentioned priest is not in unity with Church teachings is inaccurate. …] As CCR is relatively new, the Church hasn’t defined it yet doctrinally. Unitil then, I’m gonna go with what the priest said in the homily. Feel free to disagree.

The Magisterium is not likely to issue a doctrinal encylical on this, any more than they would for other movements in the Church. Canonical recognition would be sufficient for most loyal Catholics to render their religious submission. True, you don’t have to participate in this Community, especially when you have not received the vocation to belong. But disagreeing is one thing, publishing a post saying they are not approved is quite another error.

As for your priest giving that advice, yes, he is responsible for imposing his private opinion as official Church teaching. You may believe his stands with the Church, but … not on this issue.

 

[Denise1957]

This is a clear example of what I referred to as “uninformed misgivings that people perpetuate.”

From the Vatican
"The Directory is a response to the invitation extended by John Paul II to the Pontifical Council for the Laity in *Christifideles Laici *to draw up a list of associations which have received the “official recognition and explicit approval" of the Holy See.”

You’ll find the Charismatic Communities listed in #5 of the Directory. And here’s another less official source, but worthy of note, nevertheless.
Pope John Paul II, in particular, made a number of statements on the movement. On November 30, 1990, The Pontifical Council for the Laity promulgated the decree which inaugurated the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities and Fellowships. Brian Smith of Brisbane, elected President of the Executive of the Fraternity, called the declaration the most significant event in the history of the charismatic renewal since the 1975 Holy Year international conference and the acknowledgment it received from Pope Paul VI at that time, saying ‘It is the first time that the Renewal has had formal, canonical recognition by the Vatican.’

The Magisterium is not likely to issue a doctrinal encylical on this, any more than they would for other movements in the Church. Canonical recognition would be sufficient for most loyal Catholics to render their religious submission. True, you don’t have to participate in this Community, especially when you have not received the vocation to belong. But disagreeing is one thing, publishing a post saying they are not approved is quite another error.

As for your priest giving that advice, yes, he is responsible for imposing his private opinion as official Church teaching. You may believe his stands with the Church, but … not on this issue.

I don’t see anywhere that it is written that Catholics can ask for or pray for the gift of tongues. I think that this is what we were originally discussing. Has the Church declared in a definitive or doctrinal manner that Catholics should or can ask for, or pray for the extraordinary gift of speaking in tongues? Bear in mind that I’m asking for Church teaching, rather than statements made by individual Catholics, even if they are part of the hierarchy, or the Pope.

 

[Denise1957]

But disagreeing is one thing, publishing a post saying they are not approved is quite another error.

I don’t recall saying that the CCR is not approved. If you can please point out where I’ve said this, I would appreciate it.

 

[Sirach2]

Some don’t even have to ask, Denise. The gifts are gratuitous. Sr. Briege McKenna was told by Our Lord that she has the gift of healing, and to begin to use it. She held back using it for some time until she was finally convicted to exercise the gift for the benefit of God’s people.

Are you saying that until you rhetorically put your fingers in the nails, you will not believe? Try reading this work from Pope John Paul II that I linked to earlier. Do a Ctrl F and type in “charism.” There is mention of “various kinds of tongues” – present tense, assuring us that the Holy Spirit is active today. Whether or not some ask or do not ask, it is the Spirit’s perogative and we ought not to pronounce on His work.

In line with Jesus’ invitation in Lk. 11:13, “If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.” And we know that with the Spirit comes His gifts - ask or no ask.

Where is your proof, other than the homiletic word of a traditional priest, that we are forbidden to ask? Source, please.

 

[Denise1957]

Some don’t even have to ask, Denise. The gifts are gratuitous. Sr. Briege McKenna was told by Our Lord that she has the gift of healing, and to begin to use it. She held back using it for some time until she was finally convicted to exercise the gift for the benefit of God’s people.

Are you saying that until you rhetorically put your fingers in the nails, you will not believe? Try reading this work from Pope John Paul II that I linked to earlier. Do a Ctrl F and type in “charism.” There is mention of “various kinds of tongues” – present tense, assuring us that the Holy Spirit is active today. Whether or not some ask or do not ask, it is the Spirit’s perogative and we ought not to pronounce on His work.

In line with Jesus’ invitation in Lk. 11:13, “If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.” And we know that with the Spirit comes His gifts - ask or no ask.

Where is your proof, other than the homiletic word of a traditional priest, that we are forbidden to ask? Source, please.

Sirach, you have accused a priest of the Church of not being in unity with Church teaching because he had said in a homily that we are not to ask for or pray for the extraordinary gift of tongues. I have asked for Church teaching (official and declarative teaching) that what he said is wrong, but you have not provided any. As I’m not interested in getting into a wider debate on the subject, this will be my last post, for now, on this thread.

 

[Sirach2]

Denise:

Bear in mind that I’m asking for Church teaching, rather than statements made by individual Catholics, even if they are part of the hierarchy, or the Pope.

Well, I just noticed this, and it would appear that you are not going to render submission to Pope John Paul’s encylical that I just restated above. To convince you that religious submission is a duty of all Catholics, whether or not the teaching carries the extraordinary weight of dogma, is just plain beyond the scope of this thread.

I don’t recall saying that the CCR is not approved.

You implied it here: “As CCR is relatively new, the Church hasn’t defined it yet doctrinally.”
That is not to say it is unapproved until it is accorded the status of doctrine. I showed you already two examples that it has received canonical recognition. Your idea of hierarchical approval is very malformed.

Awaiting your source that we are forbidden to ask for the gift of tongues. Other than that, I have nothing further to offer in discussion with you. I have never seen such vitriol expressed by those who believe the CCR is evil, dangerous, not of God, etc.

 

[Denise1957]

Well, I just noticed this, and it would appear that you are not going to render submission to Pope John Paul’s encylical that I just restated above. To convince you that religious submission is a duty of all Catholics, whether or not the teaching carries the extraordinary weight of dogma, is just plain beyond the scope of this thread.

You implied it here: “As CCR is relatively new, the Church hasn’t defined it yet doctrinally.”
That is not to say it is unapproved until it is accorded the status of doctrine. I showed you already two examples that it has received canonical recognition. Your idea of hierarchical approval is very malformed.

Okay, one more post. You still have not provided declarative Church teaching that we, as Catholics, are to ask for, or pray for the gift of tongues. I don’t think that the encyclical speaks to this. You keep trying to move the conversation to that of approval of CCR, as if approval itself means that we are to ask for the gift of tongues, even though this is not stated in Church teaching.

See, this is one of the reasons why those who are attached to the EF don’t really mesh with the CCR folks. The former are used to dealing with clear teachings of the Church, while the latter (or so it seems) want to extrapolate, in a sometimes subjective manner, truth as they want to see it, even if the Church has not defined it as such. Not that those who are attached to the EF don’t also fall into the subjective thing at times, too.

Okay, that’s it. Ta-ta for now!

 

[LeeGrizz]

Why on earth is this thread here? The sub-forum description very clearly says it’s for discussing the EF.

 

[Sirach2]

LeeGrizz:

Why on earth is this thread here? The sub-forum description very clearly says it’s for discussing the EF.

That’s twice for you, Lee, and others have surpassed your two in trying to remove this thread. “They think that by their much-saying, they will be heard.”

I suggest you contact the moderator who has seen fit in allowing it to remain.

 

[Sirach2]

Denise:

You still have not provided declarative Church teaching that we, as Catholics, are to ask for, or pray for the gift of tongues.

:banghead: I never said that, and you know it. Nor have you provided the source which states that we are forbidden to ask. A classic standoff.

Read my words: “Some don’t even have to ask, Denise. The gifts are gratuitous.”
Note the example I gave you of Sr. Briege.

 

[LeeGrizz]

That’s twice for you, Lee, and others have surpassed your two in trying to remove this thread. “They think that by their much-saying, they will be heard.”

I suggest you contact the moderator who has seen fit in allowing it to remain.

Thank you. I was not aware of how to report threads, not seeing a “report” button-- not being a video game player, mere symbols confound me. I reported for the purpose of its being moved. I could care less if people wish to discuss this, but it’s inappropriate in this sub-forum.

Why, however, do you gloat in inappropriate topics for this sub-forum? What do you gain by shoving this subject in our faces?