Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - Let me quote the CCC and scripture, then I will ask questions. Please try to answer with just a yes or no.

I will start with the last part of paragraph # 846 from the CCC. It says “Hence they could not be saved who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it”. Am I correct in assuming that we both agree with this statement?

I will now quote paragraph # 847 which says, **"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Romans 2:14-16 says, "When Gentiles, who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. *(This is the natural law which when reduced to writing are the 10 Commandments) (my added explanation.) *Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

Do you agree with me that paragraph 2 & 3 are correct & accurate and that Romans states salvation is possible outside of the Church?

I ask it this way because if we agree on these, then I ask, what is our disagreement? If we do not agree, then, all I can say is that you are in my prayers that you accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church, and we would have nothing further to say as I don’t know what further to say.
Deacon Ed B.

 

[guanophore]

I must strongly disagree with the statement that true Catholic Charismatics discourage devotions such as the rosary. Almost all of the Charismatic meetings and groups with which I have been associated 1. Encourage Eucharistic Adoration, 2 Attendance of daily mass and communion if able, 3, recitation of the rosary, 4. recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours and 5. Pray. Pray. Pray.
In no way, shape or form, would I call this under the guidance of the father of lies. He cannot even say “Praise be Jesus Christ”, which is a frequent utterance of praise at these meetings and conferences. Discernment was mentioned. Practice discernment based on sound Catholic Teaching. If one says, as a priest, that he no longer believes in the transubstantantion, you know which way to go. i.e., away from him to one solidly grounded in our one true faith and who practices and teaches it. The authentic Catholic Charismatic movement, DOES NOT teach or encourage anything contrary to the magesterium, but rather uses it as its guide.
Deacon Ed B

I agree with you entirely, but there are some Charismatic groups that are not like this. There was one group in my area that pulled folks from about five different parishes, a huge group. Eventually they fell into Protestantism, rejected the sacraments, and formed their own “church”. So, I think Dustin’s Dad does have valid concerns. I am just saying the problem is not with the Charismatic Gifts themselves.

 

[DustinsDad]

To Dustin’s Dad - … Please try to answer with just a yes or no.

I will start with the last part of paragraph # 846 from the CCC. It says "Hence they could not be saved who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it". Am I correct in assuming that we both agree with this statement?

Yes of course. I only point out that this does not address those who could have known the Truth but chose not to. That is a different question.

I will now quote paragraph # 847 which says, **“This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too *may ***achieve eternal salvation.”

I agree with this statement as well - so yes, since there is no culpability for their ignorance by very phrasing of the question. And again, I will point out that this does not address those who could have known the Truth but chose not to.

You seem to be reading it and assuming the two paragraphs above mean that only those who truly and really believe and understand the Church is true and then reject her are guilty of rejecting her. Is this your take on it? Or do I assume too much?

IRomans 2:14-16 says, "When Gentiles, who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. *(This is the natural law which when reduced to writing are the 10 Commandments) (my added explanation.) *Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

Okay. I would only point out (what I think you already know) that part of this natural law is to “seek the Truth”, that is to “seek God”…this is why choosing not to know the Truth is a violation of the Natural Law.

Do you agree with me that paragraph 2 & 3 are correct & accurate

I agree that they are correct and accurate - but I also say that they are incomplete in the sense that they don’t address those who are culpable for their ignorance. Hence, they are ambiguous and can too easily be taken the wrong way

…and that Romans states salvation is possible outside of the Church?

If you had said “salvation is possible outside the visible bonds of the Church” I would agree. But simply saying “salvation is possible outside the Church” - no…I think you mean the same thing as I, but the words are too prone to misinterpretation and if taken as it reads exactly, would contradict infallible Church teaching.

The folks in Romans could be saved by being united to the Church in Her Spirit. Again, here’s Pope St. Pius X’s catechism, number 29:Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
*A. *If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

I ask it this way because if we agree on these, then I ask, what is our disagreement? If we do not agree, then, all I can say is that you are in my prayers that you accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church, and we would have nothing further to say as I don’t know what further to say.

C’mon Deacon - let’s not go excommunicating each other just yet.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Praise the Lord, I think we are in disagreement. Thats why its easier to speak directly with one another then to go back and forth in writing. Now the question is who convinced who?
Deacon Ed B

 

[guanophore]

Do a search of my posts - you’ll find me over there. But I’m always nice .

Ok, I will go look. Didn’t mean to be snarky or anything. When I re-read this today it seemed kinda harsh, and if so, I apologize. I just find that telling the truth in love does not always work.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - I just re-reread my last post and had a good laugh. I meant to say we are in agreement, not disagreement. Sorry for the slip, Hope you see the humor also.
Deacon Ed B

 

[guanophore]

Again, I think the latest quote I provided earlier was from 1943. What exactly are you talking about with these “new experiences”? Please explain.

The plethora of “pentecostal” and evangelical faith communites. I guess it really goes back to more like 100 years, but there has been a great spawn of them. To the extent that they adopt Catholic doctrine, they are Catholic, and to the extent they do not, they are separated. But I think it is not a “line” as it was once thought. There are some Protestants that live a better life than so called Catholics, don’t you think?

 

[DebChris]

I have not posted for a while. I am back in school and have little time. Often, when it comes to the renewal, there are accusations that it is simply a matter of emotionalism. This issue has already been addressed. Emotions are changable. If it were merely a matter of emotion, the gifts would not remain with the person throughout the years.
It is easy to become caught in the trap of trying to intellectualize or rationalize the faith experience. If that were possible, it would no longer be a matter of faith, of trusting God to do whatever it is He wills to do in my life. Sometimes it does mean setting aside my reason, or how I think God should be. I am made in God’s image, not the other way around.
Very often a person who prophecies or teaches at a prayer group will say the same thing. That the teaching he/she is called to give deals with an issue with which God is dealing with him/her. There is a certain humility involved in saying God is not through with me yet.
Charismatics do not have specific identifying marks to distinguish us from the average man or woman in the pew. In fact, that is exactly who we are. What is remarkable is the reality that God has chosen to deal with us ordinary human beings supernaturally. It is not something easily forgotten. It is for this reason that we give praise to our creator. The most difficult part of Lent is not being able to shout “alleluia.”
We are also called to listen to what it is that God would change in our individual lives; to go into the closet of our heart where we can hear God speak to us individually and personally.
I am nobody special, at least not any more special than anybody else on this thread. The gift of the Holy Spirit is available to all who seek.
Those who attended Vatican II were members of the magisterium. The documents, especially those dealing with the modern world, are not a concession to the world in which we live. They address the realities against which we struggle on a day to day basis. This is the world into which we are called to live our faith.

 

[Irish_Saints]

I’ve opted this past week to take a back seat in this thread and watch it as it unfolds. It’s interesting (at least to me) that we went from discussing the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church to whether protestants–and in particular, charismatic non-Catholics–are considered “saved” in light of conciliar documents and the new Catechism.

While I see a tangential relationship between the two topics, since it’s usually among the charismatics of both wings that have most contact with one another, I’d like to veer just for a moment back onto the original topic.

In my earlier comments, I tried to remain as dispassionate and objective as possible, citing various documents, scriptures, etc. in the rationale why I feel the Catholic Charismatic Movement(CCM) is, at the very least, suspect. However, it seems the only thing that holds real currency among many here is “experience” and “feelings”, so in a nutshell, here’s mine:

In short, charismaticism and pentecostalism “weird me out!” There, I said it (and many of you probably at least thought it!)

Yes, I was involved in Pentecostal communities in my “BC” (Before Catholic) days. But even then, there were large componants of the movement that just didn’t sit right with me. In the circles I ran in, it wasn’t unusual to see people run laps around the sanctuary with their eyes closed, shout and hold conversations with themselves in alleged tongues, issue prophetic “Thus sayeth the Lord” proclamations (in broken Elizabethan English no less) that were either really generic or totally off-the-wall; and the list goes on.

Since I left pentecostalism, a new phenomenon sprang up in the 90’s under a number of different titles. “Latter Rain”, “Toronto Blessing”, and so forth. What chiefly characterizes this “movement within a movement” is the so-called “holy laughter” (and attendant offshoots, like “holy barking” and the like.) Allegedly under the Spirit’s influence, individuals and whole congregations will engage in protracted periods of uncontrollable, hysterical laughter and other histrionic episodes. A secondary effect of this sub-culture has been what I would call “jingoistic fidelity.” That is, adopting a number of catch-phrases that attempt to encapsulate the experience. Things like “standing under the spout where the glory comes out” and other pitchy slogans comprise a great bulk of the individual’s credo.

Catholics have not been immune to this latest inculcation of excesses. This should come as little surprise, owing to the fact that the whole genesis of the modern CCM can be traced directly to the intervention of Pentocostal non-Catholics. Some of whom could even be described as borderline anti-Catholic to an extent, such as the late founder of the Full Gospel Businessmen’s Int’l group, Demos Shakarian, who had a major hand in the early Catholic roots of the movement in the 1960’s.

True Catholics have long held to the tradition of Spiritual mysticism among the saints. It isn’t the excercise of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of people that many find disturbing. It is the almost wholesale jettisoning of Tradition and coming under the obediance of the Magesterium, in favor of “experience trumps all” being the byword of the movement, that those of us who object find particularly nettlesome.

So, my “experience”…one which has been deeply entrenched in the past within the movement…tells me that the fields are virtually awash in red flags concerning so many aspects of this movement. From its rather dubious origins, it’s relative shallowness with regard to depth of solid doctrinal backbone, to the questionable practices and outright abuses of many within the movement, and its amorphous and ambiguous leadership… there’s more than enough about it to make me run, not walk, in the opposite direction whenever anything even smells like this unique brand of “spirituality.”

Okay, I’ve got that off my chest. Fire away, asbestos long-johns are at the ready.

 

[DustinsDad]

The plethora of “pentecostal” and evangelical faith communites. I guess it really goes back to more like 100 years, but there has been a great spawn of them.

Yes, in the big scope of things, the penticostals are more recent (about a hundred years or so old), the “evangelicals” a bit older but you could say it too is fairly recent. But they both existed when many of the encyclicals I am quoting from were written. What exactly differenciates these from the earlier protestant sects?

We can’t just say they’re different because now it’s adherants were born into these sects after the original break away from the Church - because this was true of many folks during Trent and all folks during the First Vatican Council, and likewise during the multitude of encyclicals published between Trent and Vatican II.

To the extent that they adopt Catholic doctrine, they are Catholic, and to the extent they do not, they are separated.

With all due respect, one does not become Catholic until one adopts all Catholic doctrine. This is one of those things is simply black and white - true or false. It’s always been true that if one rejects one official teaching of HMC, one rejects it all.

Read Mortalium Animos, published in 1928. Therein is explained this reality. It explains why, even though the intentions can be good, such a blurring of the lines leads to disaster. Here’s just a bit - the encylcical goes on at length…3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. 4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.” And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”? All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. … This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. **But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed. **

(Mortalium Animos, cf 3 & 4, Pope Pius XI, 1928)
Further, I don’t think this works on a practical or historical level when looking the doctrine of these various communities. The further we get from Luther’s reformation, the further in general they get from the Catholic faith. If taking your approach here, Luther was by far “more catholic” than the evangelical and penticostal communities now-a-days. And in this sense, if what you say is true, then the timeline is backwards - the Church should be more condemning of the current groups than the groups predating them - obviously not the case.

Also, if we’re talking about them as groups, we’ve got to admit that these groups you mention survive and grow in large part by their ability to pull members of the One True Church into their group. This was especially true during the time of the Reformation (obviously) - but it has once again reached epidemic proportions since the “change in approach”.

Simply by looking at the hard numbers. Aside from our own nation’s experience (we’ve all got friends or family members that have been pulled out of the Church into one or another of these groups), look at South America for example - tragic.

If this “new approach” has produced conversions in any significant number, then the number has been away from HMC, not too Her.

(continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above…)

But I think it is not a “line” as it was once thought.

The “line” so to speak, has been infallibly defined, i.e. this is the Church and outside it there is no salvation. The church has always understood the possibility for individual souls to be in the Church by Spirit and yet not visibly in Her to our eyes due to a combination of circumstances - ignorance being the most often referred to (but it does take more than that). But to take the defined line and say God don’t really care about that line - as if it was a line invented by men when in fact it was God speaking who revealed the line to us through His Church in the first place - is wrong.

If one were to say that conditions present now a couple of centuries post-reformation make ignorance more difficult to overcome and such conditions can possibly lesson the culpability for that ignorance, I’d agree to an extent…but this is a different argument altogether, and it addresses the individual not the community as a whole.

Thing is, a whole heck of alot of folks think the paragraph above is what the Church teaches now- i.e., that the Church reversed infallible dogma. And as it relates to this thread - those thoughts and attitudes are rampant in the Charismatic movement. At least that’s the real-world impression alot of us get just from talking with layfolk and clergy even involved in this movement. And if one dogma can be overturned…well…the whole thing goes.

…There are some Protestants that live a better life than so called Catholics, don’t you think?

Yep - seems that way to our eyes alot of times. But if they are culpably rejecting the Church Christ established, then what will that “better life” merit them in the end? That’s a tough one there.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[guanophore]

I have not posted for a while. I am back in school and have little time. Often, when it comes to the renewal, there are accusations that it is simply a matter of emotionalism. This issue has already been addressed. Emotions are changable. If it were merely a matter of emotion, the gifts would not remain with the person throughout the years.
It is easy to become caught in the trap of trying to intellectualize or rationalize the faith experience. If that were possible, it would no longer be a matter of faith, of trusting God to do whatever it is He wills to do in my life. Sometimes it does mean setting aside my reason, or how I think God should be. I am made in God’s image, not the other way around.
Very often a person who prophecies or teaches at a prayer group will say the same thing. That the teaching he/she is called to give deals with an issue with which God is dealing with him/her. There is a certain humility involved in saying God is not through with me yet.
Charismatics do not have specific identifying marks to distinguish us from the average man or woman in the pew. In fact, that is exactly who we are. What is remarkable is the reality that God has chosen to deal with us ordinary human beings supernaturally. It is not something easily forgotten. It is for this reason that we give praise to our creator. The most difficult part of Lent is not being able to shout “alleluia.”
We are also called to listen to what it is that God would change in our individual lives; to go into the closet of our heart where we can hear God speak to us individually and personally.
I am nobody special, at least not any more special than anybody else on this thread. The gift of the Holy Spirit is available to all who seek.
Those who attended Vatican II were members of the magisterium. The documents, especially those dealing with the modern world, are not a concession to the world in which we live. They address the realities against which we struggle on a day to day basis. This is the world into which we are called to live our faith.

Glad to see you back, DebChris! Thank you for your balanced contribution to this thread.

 

[deborahssong]

HI there ladies and gents!..my computer was down all week and I just picked it up today. wow you guys have really been discussing here. I must admitt I get a bit disturbed when I read the post from Margarite about suffering…I am sure you dont mean the way it sounds, but it sounds like you are saying we ARE to suffer to enter in with Chrit’s suffering. I gotta tell you that my heart has a real difficult time with that one…and I have an uneasiness in my spirit about that. I KNOW trials come and tribulations come…but Jesus said…take heart, I have OVERCOME the world…as He said they would come in this world.But people forget the rest of that…which means he has overcome them and so can we??? Jesus is the ONLY one who was sent here to suffer and die as He did! The only one. We cannot do what He already did! we just cant…everywhere Jesus went the word of God said… He healed all who were oppressed of the devil and healed all of the sick…In the book of Hebrews Paul says that He(Jesus) is the same yesterday, today and forever. In saying that how is it that we are suppose to suffer and offer it to Him for souls? that means that we are belieivng that what ever we are going thru is somehow helping the cause of Jesus? or am I just not getting this…

Also  Jesus said in John 15? and elsewhere I believe in John that .....we will know HIs children BY the fruit they bear.......and that fruit is listed in Galatians 5;22.  These characteristics are God's and should be those who follow Him!  So we will KNOW a child of God........it just doesnt make sense........if we SAY we love our spouses but we never ever show fruit of that?  I can tell you right now, that eventually the marriage would dwindle away......we have a personlal relationship with the living GOD>>>>>and IF he lives in us then somebody ought to be able to see that FRUIT!  agree///

I am still not convinced here folks…sometting happened bewteen the Book of Acts and the early writings of the church fathers…and for me that is a BIG gap. I see much that makes sense but there is this gap, and so far I dont get it. Are you going on what the popes have said down thru the ages, are you going on the dogma of the catholic church and where does scripture back up what you say about Peter…it never says he is the first pope…yes Jesus made him the leader but even in the catholic bible I have, it just deosnt say, Peter was the first Pope, it doesnt say that that first church was called catholic, it doesnt. SO who gave the titles and who gave the church the right to do so? what scriptures back up naming titles and changing things? All of the titles that you have given, the magesterium, the councils, I mean it just bewilders me with all of that.
The didache is clear cut and doesnt mention catholicisim, so who and what and where did the early church change from the book of Acts? and it appeasr that it did… Please do not think I am being disrespectful…I am really wanting to know exacts here.
There are so many views here about, yes about the move of the Holy Spirit…I just know that it appears we all have good intentions of explaining the truth as we know it…yet we all have such different views…may I tell you that some of my family say this is WHY they dont come to the Lord…now of course one will use an excuse when running from God…but never the less, they say…there are too many conflciting stories out there about the right church, so who has the right one …my cousins said just because the catholic church has been around for awhile does that mean they have it right. My uncle who was actually going to be come a priest, after going to the catholic high school , in his senior year became an atheist? he says that all of the info that he grew up knowing he lost his senior year. he said if the priest that taught us doesnt know the truth… who does? He died sadly to say never reconciling to any God and said that the catholic church lied to him…they didnt have the answers! what happened to him his senior year that tore him apart about ANY belief in anything? in saying that we have to come up with some concrete evidence here I guess that is what I am asking for…God Bless all,and this sure is interesting…

Deborah

 

[DustinsDad]

HI there ladies and gents!..my computer was down all week and I just picked it up today. wow you guys have really been discussing here. I must admitt I get a bit disturbed when I read the post from Margarite about suffering…I am sure you dont mean the way it sounds, but it sounds like you are saying we ARE to suffer to enter in with Chrit’s suffering. I gotta tell you that my heart has a real difficult time with that one…and I have an uneasiness in my spirit about that. I KNOW trials come and tribulations come…but Jesus said…take heart, I have OVERCOME the world…as He said they would come in this world.But people forget the rest of that…which means he has overcome them and so can we??? Jesus is the ONLY one who was sent here to suffer and die as He did! The only one. We cannot do what He already did! we just cant…everywhere Jesus went the word of God said… He healed all who were oppressed of the devil and healed all of the sick…In the book of Hebrews Paul says that He(Jesus) is the same yesterday, today and forever. In saying that how is it that we are suppose to suffer and offer it to Him for souls? that means that we are belieivng that what ever we are going thru is somehow helping the cause of Jesus? or am I just not getting this…

Also Jesus said in John 15? and elsewhere I believe in John that …we will know HIs children BY the fruit they bear…and that fruit is listed in Galatians 5;22. These characteristics are God’s and should be those who follow Him! So we will KNOW a child of God…it just doesnt make sense…if we SAY we love our spouses but we never ever show fruit of that? I can tell you right now, that eventually the marriage would dwindle away…we have a personlal relationship with the living GOD>>>>>and IF he lives in us then somebody ought to be able to see that FRUIT! agree///
I am still not convinced here folks…sometting happened bewteen the Book of Acts and the early writings of the church fathers…and for me that is a BIG gap. I see much that makes sense but there is this gap, and so far I dont get it. Are you going on what the popes have said down thru the ages, are you going on the dogma of the catholic church and where does scripture back up what you say about Peter…it never says he is the first pope…yes Jesus made him the leader but even in the catholic bible I have, it just deosnt say, Peter was the first Pope, it doesnt say that that first church was called catholic, it doesnt. SO who gave the titles and who gave the church the right to do so? what scriptures back up naming titles and changing things? All of the titles that you have given, the magesterium, the councils, I mean it just bewilders me with all of that.
The didache is clear cut and doesnt mention catholicisim, so who and what and where did the early church change from the book of Acts? and it appeasr that it did… Please do not think I am being disrespectful…I am really wanting to know exacts here.
There are so many views here about, yes about the move of the Holy Spirit…I just know that it appears we all have good intentions of explaining the truth as we know it…yet we all have such different views…may I tell you that some of my family say this is WHY they dont come to the Lord…now of course one will use an excuse when running from God…but never the less, they say…there are too many conflciting stories out there about the right church, so who has the right one …my cousins said just because the catholic church has been around for awhile does that mean they have it right. My uncle who was actually going to be come a priest, after going to the catholic high school , in his senior year became an atheist? he says that all of the info that he grew up knowing he lost his senior year. he said if the priest that taught us doesnt know the truth… who does? He died sadly to say never reconciling to any God and said that the catholic church lied to him…they didnt have the answers! what happened to him his senior year that tore him apart about ANY belief in anything? in saying that we have to come up with some concrete evidence here I guess that is what I am asking for…God Bless all,and this sure is interesting…

Deborah

Now is where I’m with the Deacon - I wish I could sit down and talk with you in person. I truly do.

Take a step back from all the “data” for a bit - concentrate on who Jesus is - fully human and fully Divine. God made man…the Word Incarnate. That’s the focal point, and that is our starting point.

With that as your foundation - recognize that you can trust anything and everything He says…you can bet your life and your eternal soul on His words. And when He says He’s gonna build His Church on Peter and that this Church will not fail, will not bind error for truth or truth for error, and will always be with us in every age even until the end of the world…you can trust Him. And you can trust His Church precisely because you can trust Him. No matter what. It doesn’t depend on knuckleheads like me - it depends on Him.

And that’s why this Church is still here, and why it’ll be here when He returns in all His glory.

Keep praying and listening to the Lord. Go where He’s leading you.

My prayers are with you - God bless!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Irish_Saints]

Re: Post 292

Wow. Not so much as a ripple on the waters.

I don’t know whether to be disappointed or impressed.

Carry on, I’m done.

 

[Margarite]

Now is where I’m with the Deacon - I wish I could sit down and talk with you in person. I truly do.

Take a step back from all the “data” for a bit - concentrate on who Jesus is - fully human and fully Divine. God made man…the Word Incarnate. That’s the focal point, and that is our starting point.

With that as your foundation - recognize that you can trust anything and everything He says…you can bet your life and your eternal soul on His words. And when He says He’s gonna build His Church on Peter and that this Church will not fail, will not bind error for truth or truth for error, and will always be with us in every age even until the end of the world…you can trust Him. And you can trust His Church precisely because you can trust Him. No matter what. It doesn’t depend on knuckleheads like me - it depends on Him.

And that’s why this Church is still here, and why it’ll be here when He returns in all His glory.

Keep praying and listening to the Lord. Go where He’s leading you.

My prayers are with you - God bless!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Perfect answer! :clapping:

 

[DustinsDad]

Re: Post 292

Wow. Not so much as a ripple on the waters.

I don’t know whether to be disappointed or impressed.

Carry on, I’m done.

I would have “fired away”, but I agree with much if not all of your concerns.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Margarite]

Sorry, that I have not been participating, but I have been trying to get my college application our to Wyoming Catholic College. Also my parents have just bought a new home (the first they have owned in 12 years!) so we have been busy with that.

As far as your comments about my post on suffering,

I am not trying to take away from what Christ suffered. By no means am I trying to do that. No rather I am saying, that if we suffer for our own sins and the sins of others, and if we sin as little as possible, then we are taking away from what Christ had to suffer.
He only had to suffer enough to pay for the sins of all mankind, so if we suffer for our own sins and the sins of others, then it takes a little away from what Christ had to suffer.

All the saints were human, all the saints sinned, many saints went straight to heaven without even going to purgatory, so I must ask: How were their sins paid for? Only with Christ’s suffering? Then why is there a purgatory? No, they helped to pay for their own sins through suffering in life instead of suffering after death. Many saints have been known to take up extra suffering so that they could pay for other’s sins. St. Catharine (as I cited in my earlier post) suffered for her father, so that he never had to go to purgatory.

I don’t want to be long winded so I will stop here, but below are a few quotes about suffering:

1 Timothy 4:10 says, “For this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.”
Romans 8:18 says, “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us”
2 Corinthians 1:5-7 says, “For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comforter overflows. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.”
Philippians 3:10-11 reads, “I want you to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
also read Hebrews 2:10-18
Hebrews 5:8-10,
Revelation 2:10,
1 Peter 4:1-2 & 13.
1 Peter 5:10: “And the God of all grace Who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.”

Peter 2:19-21 - Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

In Luke 9:23 - Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices with His eternal sacrifice.

Let us understand that God is a physician, and that suffering is a medicine for salvation, not a punishment for damnation.

~St. Augustine

If we suffer with Christ, we will be glorified with Him. The fulfillment of the promised happiness is certain for those who share in the Lord’s Passion.

~St. Leo the Great

Let us strive to face suffering with Christian courage. Then all difficulties will vanish and pain itself will become transformed into joy.

~St. Teresa of Avila

The cross is the greatest gift God could bestow on His Elect on earth. There is nothing so necessary, so beneficial, so sweet, or so glorious as to suffer something for Jesus. If you suffer as you ought, the cross will become a precious yoke that Jesus will carry with you.

~St. Louis de Montfort

Suffering is like a kiss that Jesus hanging from the cross bestows on persons whom He loves in a special way. Because of this love He wants to associate them in the work of the redemption.

~St. Bonaventure

To suffer and not to suffer for God is torment.

~St. Gerard Majella

Let us lose nothing of what God bestows on us. Difficulties and sufferings will disappear, but the merit we acquire through our fidelity will remain forever. Let us therefore build our eternity through all the things that pass away.

~St. Jane Frances de Chantal

Suffering is a great favor. Remember that everything soon comes to an end . . . and take courage. Think of how our gain is eternal.

~St. Teresa of Avila

 

[DebChris]

We don’t want to look at suffering as a blessing simply for the sake of suffering. We are not called to live a masochistic faith.
Jesus preached the good news. He healed the people with whom he came into contact. Throughout the gospels we find Jesus healing, coming from having healed somebody, or on the way to healing somebody. Does that mean that everybody is healed instantaneously? Of course not. We do need to be strong in faith when confronted by Job’s comforters—those who do not understand why a person who believes has any time of physical problem. The Old Testament says, “the physician too prays to the Lord that his diagnosis may be correct and we may be healed.” Fr. D’Orio when asked about his gift of healing, specifically why not everybody he touched was healed, replied, “that is God’s way of keeping me humble.” It is God who heals. The person with the charism is simply the instrument He uses for His own purpose.
Sometimes picking up our cross and following after Christ means understanding that we will be rejected by the world. There will be many who will not understand the joy we possess even in the midst of difficulty. The strength that we have comes from God. We are a resurrection people, called to live in the joy of the Lord. When we focus on personal pain or difficulty, that pain distracts from the source of our joy. The gift that God has for each of us is free, but it will cost us everything. It may cause our friends and family to reject us. That is the cost of discipleship.

 

[rien]

Some times we dismiss or even condem things we dont understand.As Catholics,we have the Holy Scriptures Plus Tradition,and the Catechism.Although I dont attend a charismatic parish,may I suggest some readings from the CCC,Charisms #799,800,801.Grace#2003.We dont have to guess when our church teachings are availible for us all.

Big problem is many of the Saints were charismatic.

The catholic church has never taught the gifts of the Holy Spirit (charismas) ended with the death of the last Aposatle. Fundamentalists like Baptisits teach they di. pentecostals obviously teach they didn.t.