Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Margarite]

Hello all,

I am sorry that I have come in so late on this topic. I read through half of the posts and jumped to the end. I wanted to post this link about St Thomas Aquinas. I thought some or all might find it interesting, especially if you haven’t read it yet.

ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0711/g09.htm

I don’t want to start the arguement all over again, but thank you for sharing this. The problem I have with this article is it is constantly saying “Thomas clearly…” or “Clearly, Thomas…” When I read the quotes, the conclusions that the author got were not clearly from St. Thomas, at least to me. I hesitate to post this because I don’t want this thread to start all over again, but I feel I must.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: Dustin’s Dad, I am still jealous. Green with envy.

 

[Irish_Saints]

I don’t want to start the arguement all over again, but thank you for sharing this. The problem I have with this article is it is constantly saying “Thomas clearly…” or “Clearly, Thomas…” When I read the quotes, the conclusions that the author got were not clearly from St. Thomas, at least to me. I hesitate to post this because I don’t want this thread to start all over again, but I feel I must.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: Dustin’s Dad, I am still jealous. Green with envy.

Have to agree with you Margarite. If things were so clear, at least to St. Thomas, then why the 700-some-odd year gap between his publications and the CCR picking them up and adopting them as their own?

What I say is that I absolutely believe in the charismatic gifts of the the Holy Spirit. I will also say that much (if not most) of what passes as charismatic…isn’t.

A story is told of St. Padre Pio that he agreed to hear the confession of an American who spoke no Italian. All Padre Pio spoke (at least naturally) was Italian, and in fact it’s something of a backwater dialect of Italian. And yet, somehow not only was St. Pio able to hear the confession, but was able to give absolution in perfect English. Now THIS, at least in my book, passes muster for the “gift of tongues.” It’s obviously not what we see very often as practiced by many in charismaticism and pentecostalism.

I don’t want to stir the pot again, but I think there’s a big difference between this holy priest and saint, and a gaggle of folks laughing and barking uncontrolably.

I’m just sayin’…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

As one who professes to be charismatic, I must admit, I have never been to a charismatic prayer meeting or conference where people were laughing and barking uncontrollably. Have I been going to the wrong ones?
Deacon Ed B

 

[Mary_ann_R]

As one who professes to be charismatic, I must admit, I have never been to a charismatic prayer meeting or conference where people were laughing and barking uncontrollably. Have I been going to the wrong ones?
Deacon Ed B

NO, Deacon Ed, you haven’t!

 

[jeaniemarie]

As one who professes to be charismatic, I must admit, I have never been to a charismatic prayer meeting or conference where people were laughing and barking uncontrollably. Have I been going to the wrong ones?
Deacon Ed B

I was raised in the Catholic Charismatic movement. In college I sort of left Catholocism and went to “Word Faith” based non-denominational churches.

In all my years in the CCR I never heard laughing or barking. That happened in the 90’s in the non-denom churches. Totally freaky - totally demonic. They called it a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Fortunately, from my church history class in high school, I recalled that there was nothing new about this and that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit. The fact that the pastor could not see that was enough to send me running back to the Catholic church.

 

[Margarite]

I was raised in the Catholic Charismatic movement. In college I sort of left Catholocism and went to “Word Faith” based non-denominational churches.

In all my years in the CCR I never heard laughing or barking. That happened in the 90’s in the non-denom churches. Totally freaky - totally demonic. They called it a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Fortunately, from my church history class in high school, I recalled that there was nothing new about this and that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit. The fact that the pastor could not see that was enough to send me running back to the Catholic church.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways. He can bring good out of evil. Thank goodness for your Church history class.
I had only heard about the barking in protestant churchs, I had never even known that Catholics followed the charismatic movement, but after meeting quite a few teens who did in the youth group at my church I realized that it had become part of the church for better or for worse, well, we have agreed to disagree.

One part of the Church that needs MAJOR attention is the youth groups. I believe that they can be very influential for the good, but that right now many are being influential for the bad.

The Youth Group at my parish is horrible. The leader is a woman who know NOTHING about her faith. There are about 15-20 teens that show up. Mass is right before and almost everyone goes:thumbsup: , but they don’t pay attention because they are all in the same pew and talk and laugh and play around all during mass. Not one of them dresses any differently than if they were going to a football game, some of them dress worse. When they got to the “teen room” there was always pizza or some other food. So eating dinner would take half the time. During dinner, some girls would sit on boys’ laps, etc. I don’t want to continue. After dinner would be a skit put on by the leaders. Usually the skit was very stupid, and had a mixed or bad message. Like one time there was a skit about how being a good friend is more important than going to mass on Sunday. Another time a girl got up to lead grace and she said “Jesus is a dude, thank you dude for our food. Amen.” It is this sort of stuff that goes on in Youth groups and much worse.

So many people have parents that do not know or teach their Catholic faith, so these teens are growing up knowing nothing. They go to these youth groups and are taught next to nothing. My sisters and I tried to get the youth group to actually do something, but since we do not go to the same high school, and since we wear skirts to mass, we are outsiders, so we had no influence. The teacher did not like us correcting her when she said something that was not in line with the teachings of the Church. Finally, we decided that we were getting nowhere (after a year and a half of trying) so we are going to go to Liberal Arts Colleges and learn how to defend our faith, then we can say that we have the degree to teach these classes, and maybe then people will listen. I mean we are only teens, so why would most people listen to us? I don’t blame them, so I am going to wait until they will listen. That is why I like writing on these threads so much, age does not matter. If someone is young, but knows something, age does not get in the way of that person sharing their knowledge.

I am talking too much again.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[jeaniemarie]

Bless you Margarite -
You are blessed to have a love for God at your age. When I was young I had many friends in the church but not many who truly loved God. It is a gift, you know. You must be thankful that God has put that desire for Him into you at such a young age.

When we moved to join a charismatic community, I was around other teens for the first time who really loved God the way that I did. The path I was on eventually led away from the Church for a time. You are right about the Catholic church and the youth groups - they are non-existant where I live. So, I had to leave to find people my age who shared my love for God. Not that I would specifically recommend this for anyone else. In returning to the Church I’ve found I have to unlearn a lot of things that have been to my detrimate. But, God is faithful even when we are not. One of my favorite songwriters wrote a line in a song "Some steps my feet have taken in hot pursuit, have led me to some places far away from you" (Margaret Becker) - I can totally relate to that!

So, pray for Godly friends and do not despise those who do not share your love for God. You will have a blessed life and be spared many sorrows by sticking close to Him. And, I cannot emphasize this enough - it truly is a gift!

 

[Margarite]

Bless you Margarite -
You are blessed to have a love for God at your age. When I was young I had many friends in the church but not many who truly loved God. It is a gift, you know. You must be thankful that God has put that desire for Him into you at such a young age.

When we moved to join a charismatic community, I was around other teens for the first time who really loved God the way that I did. The path I was on eventually led away from the Church for a time. You are right about the Catholic church and the youth groups - they are non-existant where I live. So, I had to leave to find people my age who shared my love for God. Not that I would specifically recommend this for anyone else. In returning to the Church I’ve found I have to unlearn a lot of things that have been to my detrimate. But, God is faithful even when we are not. One of my favorite songwriters wrote a line in a song "Some steps my feet have taken in hot pursuit, have led me to some places far away from you" (Margaret Becker) - I can totally relate to that!

So, pray for Godly friends and do not despise those who do not share your love for God. You will have a blessed life and be spared many sorrows by sticking close to Him. And, I cannot emphasize this enough - it truly is a gift!

I agree, I am very blessed to have the education I have been given, and to have the upbringing that I have had. I don’t have many friends my age, because I have very specific morals and views and most people my age are a little more loose. But I am the eldest of six
(7 girl 1st,11 boy 5th,13 boy 7th,15 girl 10th, 17 girl 11th, 18 me graduated07),
I have two sisters who are very close in age to me, and we do everything together. We will even be in college together (we are each a year apart in school) and that will be fun. I am especially excited to go to a really good, small, conservative, Catholic college where I will be able to become friends with others who are my age and have the same ideas of right and wrong that I have.

My parents are both first generation cradle Catholics, and they study their faith all the time. They have taught us that faith and family are the two most important parts of our life and if everything else falls apart, we will still have faith and family. We have been taught to defend our faith, we have been taught to stand up for it no matter what, we have always been answered when we asked why, and I think that that has made us understand, love and defend our faith more than anything else. My parents are wonderful examples. We live our faith. I am not bragging.
In a way it is a mixed blessing, Ignorance is bliss, and knowledge means duty. It is a blessing, but just because it is a blessing does not always make it easy, though it gets easier as time goes on. My brothers are in a new school and now they are learning how to say no to their friends, and how to stand up. We older girls have had practice, so it is easier for us.

It is a great blessing and I try to remember to thank God daily for it. It is like being the eldest of six, I would not trade it for the world, but sometimes it is hard. You get the idea.

Thank you for for your support. I wish my parents could meet more people like you. My parents are the ones to whom the credit goes.

Thanks again,
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[Irish_Saints]

As one who professes to be charismatic, I must admit, I have never been to a charismatic prayer meeting or conference where people were laughing and barking uncontrollably. Have I been going to the wrong ones?
Deacon Ed B

Hello Deacon Ed B,

It’s quite possible I stumbled into an anomolous situation at my old parish, I’ll acknowledge that. Truth is, I haven’t pursued any other Catholic Charismatic groups because it was my impression this was indeed the modus operandi of CCR. I apologize if that’s not the case. However, I know what I witnessed, and it included the “holy laughter” and “slaying in the spirit”, which just about turned my stomach. In the interest of full disclosure, I did not actually witness any “barking” with this group, although it seemed to me they didn’t draw too many hard and fast lines when it came to things they wouldn’t at least experiment with.

Ironically, when I tried to ask the local CCR liason for my diocese about four years ago, he invited me to talk with him after one of his healing masses. I declined at the time, as I was living about 50 miles out and didn’t have ready access to a vehicle. During Holy Week 2004, Fr. Regis Rodda passed away. So I never did get a chance to settle the issue back then. And so it remains for me an unsettled and unsettling issue even today.

I’m afraid that isolated incident has left me scarred and very reluctant to be truly open to positive dialog. I do try to be objective, but it’s very difficult for me, given what I know. I will be the first to admit I am very “prejudiced” in this particular area, and for that I apologize. It’s a difficult thing indeed to balance being pliant to the Holy Ghost while not being vulnerable to the enemy’s counterfeit “gifts.” Therein lies my dilemma.

 

[ac23]

I despise generalizations almost as much as I tend to make them, so I’ll try to speak purely from my own experiences

I was born and raised a cradle Catholic with hardly any instruction from my parents. When they stopped attending Mass, so did I. In high school my life had no visible Catholic practice but I always felt a nagging for God–I just didn’t know how or where to look.

In tenth grade I was invited to a “Charismatic” prayer meeting and from there my life immediately changed. Something about it just clicked for me. I quickly became indoctrinated into this new atmosphere of praise and worship, speaking in tongues, and Life in the Spirit Seminars. I became a Youth Leader and started Worship Leading and delivering talks to other youths. For the first two years life was an incredible rush.

And then I realized something: my whole faith was built up on emotion. Surely there had to be something deeper for me?

I started researching more about the Catholic Church, especially apologetics articles, Scott Hahn books and Theology and Sanity, and found the substantial, hard truth I was looking for. I had a faith firm in 2000 years of Tradition and history to hold and latch onto.

I remained in the prayer group and realized just how un-Catholic it was, despite it being a Catholic Charismatic prayer group. Along with some like-minded and spiritually-maturing friends, I tried to reform it to no avail. At best we were able to maintain a sort of independence from the Adults and steer the Youth into a more Catholic direction.

Prayer Meeting attendance was encouraged and sometimes enforced yet the leaders hardly mentioned / promoted attendance at Mass.

I was a mix of emotion when I found out, on my own, all about the True Presence! Filled with joy and wonder at the extent of Jesus’ love for us; and filled with anger and frustration with my prayer group for never even mentioning this vital truth to me or my fellow youth members.

Like someone mentioned earlier (way earlier) in this thread, I was hungry for spiritual feeding but kept coming away empty with nothing but the same Prosperity-Gospel reading of the Bible: Christians aren’t meant to suffer; chase God and money will “chase after you”; if you aren’t healed yet, you’re praying wrong.

After leaving in 2004 I’ve been growing more and I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic in regards to where I live. I’m from the Los Angeles Archdiocese, which from what I gather suffers from a terrible amount of liberalism. But I’m hungry for knowledge and learning as much sound teaching as I can.

–

I’m willing to side with the Popes on their approval of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as they knew / know it.

But, here’s the danger:

Not every group that claims to be a part of the CCR truly is.

I doubt the authenticity of my former group. This doesn’t mean that truly devout Catholics aren’t a part of it. What I mean is, their membership in the group has nothing to do with their Catholicity in my opinion.

The true movement of the Holy Spirit will lead people to the Church that Jesus founded. I thank God that He led me back to the Catholic Church through my former group. But many are left behind still that do not place the primacy of their faith practice within the Sacraments of the Church.

I’ve come across CCR prayer groups that are unquestionably Orthodox Catholic whose members are as devout as I can hope to be. But my former group was dangerously teetering on the edge of spiritual self-reliance.

 

[guanophore]

I despise generalizations almost as much as I tend to make them, so I’ll try to speak purely from my own experiences

I was born and raised a cradle Catholic with hardly any instruction from my parents. When they stopped attending Mass, so did I. In high school my life had no visible Catholic practice but I always felt a nagging for God–I just didn’t know how or where to look.

In tenth grade I was invited to a “Charismatic” prayer meeting and from there my life immediately changed. Something about it just clicked for me. I quickly became indoctrinated into this new atmosphere of praise and worship, speaking in tongues, and Life in the Spirit Seminars. I became a Youth Leader and started Worship Leading and delivering talks to other youths. For the first two years life was an incredible rush.

And then I realized something: my whole faith was built up on emotion. Surely there had to be something deeper for me?

I started researching more about the Catholic Church, especially apologetics articles, Scott Hahn books and Theology and Sanity, and found the substantial, hard truth I was looking for. I had a faith firm in 2000 years of Tradition and history to hold and latch onto.

I remained in the prayer group and realized just how un-Catholic it was, despite it being a Catholic Charismatic prayer group. Along with some like-minded and spiritually-maturing friends, I tried to reform it to no avail. At best we were able to maintain a sort of independence from the Adults and steer the Youth into a more Catholic direction.

Prayer Meeting attendance was encouraged and sometimes enforced yet the leaders hardly mentioned / promoted attendance at Mass.

I was a mix of emotion when I found out, on my own, all about the True Presence! Filled with joy and wonder at the extent of Jesus’ love for us; and filled with anger and frustration with my prayer group for never even mentioning this vital truth to me or my fellow youth members.

Like someone mentioned earlier (way earlier) in this thread, I was hungry for spiritual feeding but kept coming away empty with nothing but the same Prosperity-Gospel reading of the Bible: Christians aren’t meant to suffer; chase God and money will “chase after you”; if you aren’t healed yet, you’re praying wrong.

After leaving in 2004 I’ve been growing more and I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic in regards to where I live. I’m from the Los Angeles Archdiocese, which from what I gather suffers from a terrible amount of liberalism. But I’m hungry for knowledge and learning as much sound teaching as I can.

–

I’m willing to side with the Popes on their approval of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as they knew / know it.

But, here’s the danger:

Not every group that claims to be a part of the CCR truly is.

I doubt the authenticity of my former group. This doesn’t mean that truly devout Catholics aren’t a part of it. What I mean is, their membership in the group has nothing to do with their Catholicity in my opinion.

The true movement of the Holy Spirit will lead people to the Church that Jesus founded. I thank God that He led me back to the Catholic Church through my former group. But many are left behind still that do not place the primacy of their faith practice within the Sacraments of the Church.

I’ve come across CCR prayer groups that are unquestionably Orthodox Catholic whose members are as devout as I can hope to be. But my former group was dangerously teetering on the edge of spiritual self-reliance.

:clapping:

Well said. Your experience parallels my own exactly!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Irish Saints post #352. Your experience describes much of my first impressions of the Charismatic movement. The praying in tongues and slaying in the Spirit had me totally gun shy. But something kept drawing me back. This was in the early 1980’s. Then my wife and I started going and seriously inquiring. Why I don’t know. One evening when coming back from a prayer meeting, we saw two police cars driving out of our neighborhood. My wife and I looked at each other and both said they are coming from the house. We had 4 teen age children at home. When we got there, they quickly ran out and told us they had called the police because they were down stairs in the game room and heard doors slamming and opening and stomping upstairs. This is when they called the police. Everything was in order and they left. The next day, the same thing happened when my wife was at home and she called me at work. I immediately went home and again everything was OK. We had the house blessed and it never happened again. Believe it or not, this is true. I would be skeptical if someone told it to me.

About 10 years later, in 1991, I was ordained a deacon. We still were going off and on to prayer meetings. . One day, both my wife and I found ourselves praying in tongues. We do not do it often, and we do not do it for show. If it happens, it happens. This next part is what got to me. I have a very good friend who is pastor in a particular parish where there are three deacons. He was having a visiting priest from India, who had a healing ministry, visiting his parish and asked that I be deacon of the of the mass. I was hesitant because of the other deacons in that parish. I was discussing this with another person and she replied, “Don’t worry. If God wants you to do it, you will do it.” We went that night and found out that one deacon was sick, another out of town on business and the third had grand children in from out of town. So I was deacon. After the mass, the visiting priest looked at me and said, the crowds are too large, pray with me over the people. I did, with much hesitation and doubt. To my surprise, people were being slain in the Spirit. This shook me to the core and was most humbling. Can I explain it? No. I can only say it happened. Because the Eucharist was exposed during the healing service, I can only believe that it was of God… My wife and I do not go to prayer meetings regularly because of her health. We want to go the conferences, but again are held beck because of her health. All those I know who have had my experience have someone sick in their own household, and it seems that no healing is there. But it is a gift that is given to others. To sum up. don’t be afraid of it. Inquire cauciously Do look into it, through your group in your diocese and make sure it is an approved group. Blessings and prayers.
Deacon Ed B

 

[brockmac]

I have occaisionally attended the Sunday Mass at Houston’s Catholic Charismatic Center (CCC). I normally attend mass at my parish which is a typical NO Mass, except during Lent and Advent they do the Kyrie in Greek and the Sanctus and Agnes Dei in Latin, which I wish they would do all the time. I have however attended many different parishes in the Archdiocese.

There are some things that I really like about the Charismatic Center. First off, the people who are there are there because they want to worship and praise God, not simply because they are obliged to go. Far too many people in most Sunday Masses are just going through the motions. This is not the case at the Charismatic Mass.

Another thing I really like is that when people see us with our five children, they tell us how blessed we are and mean it. At some parishes we get all kinds of stares and second glances. This is not true at the CCC. Most of the people there are very happy to see our large family.

Also, the homilies there are some of the most challenging and orthodox I’ve heard anywhere in the Archdiocese. In fact the only times I have ever heard a priest address contraception in a homily have been either at the Charismatic Mass or at a Triditine Mass.

Finally, I have not seen rampant liturgical abuses there. I am admittedly not sitting in my pew trying to count violations of the rubrics and so I may not catch everything, but it appears to me that the Mass celebrated there is in conformance with the GIRM. There was a time when they had a sung version of the Creed with some changes in the words to facilitate the melody. I never liked this and fortunately, it has been done away with and the Creed is now spoken and not sung.

I can’t say I have gone to any of their prayer meetings, nor have I gotten to know any of the regulars there on a personal level. But there seems to be an above average respect for the Eucharist, and as I said the homilies I have heard have been very orthodox and even addressed issues most priests are nervous about addressing in a homily. So in a nutshell, I see no reason to believe that these people are any less Catholic than anyone else.

I have long said, if you want to attend a TLM, please do. If you prefer a solemn NO Mass, than attend one of those (This by the way is my preference). If you would rather go to a Life Teen mass with loud, modern worship music, go ahead. And if you are attracted to a Charismatic Mass, than go there. I’m not suggesting license with the rubrics, but there is some lattitude for the selection of music, provided it is lyrically orthodox. The bottom line is go to Mass and worship our Lord and receive Him in the Eucharist (if you are in a state of Grace).

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In response to post #356. I also have been to the Houston Charismatic Center and found the masses there most inspiring to worship. You are fortunate to have a center such as this close to where you live. Be proud of your family. My wife and I have 5. We adopted the 5th after that first episode i chronicled in my last post.
Deacon Ed B

 

[deborahssong]

HI here deacon Ed B. and others…

How are all of you? It appears that this disucssion has gotten even deeper if that is possible!!! Praise His name…charismatic prayer groups and masses arent any different than any other service…it SHOULD be about worshipping Jesus…it SHOULD be about desiring more of God and removing ourselves…and scriputre is so clear in so many places, matthew, 1 Peter, 1 and 2nd timothy and on and on…there WILL be false AMONG the truth…However He has given us the Holy Spirit to guide us in all things…not some things…all …things…! How will we know…the peace that passes all understanding …deep in our hearts…that peace has kept me from harms way, has taken me from a false teacher, has enlightened my way…in every way of life…He will not fail us…
I am so excited to see how many wonderful catholic people there truly are…who love God with all of their hearts, minds, souls, and strength…In general most christians who are not growing in the Lord and His wisdom…it is because THEY havent pursued Him, His ways, His Word, and havent looked to see what their church says about those things! So far? I can find nothing in the catholic doctrine and dogma that suggests anything outside the Holy Scriptures…that is awesome to me…by the way? I have just joined St Peter the Apostle catholic church…make a long story short…I have already been approached by the Eucharistic ministry…and other areas as well…May His light shine( that be you and me as He lives in us ) for all men to see…to God be the glory great things He has done…amen?
I am a spiritfilled catholic christian…and NOW that I am in place where He wants me I am so seeing HIs power manifest and move…This Holy week reminds me of the awesome great price God paid…just to have us in fellowship with Him…He loves us so much and my heart grieves for those who dont know that…and many are right in the church…how rich and awesome is our faith…That God would preserve His church the way He has…yes Dustins dad…whether anyone wants to admitt it or now…all of these denominations are just spinoffs from the Catholic church, the original one…amen. I love all of the responses in this forum…you all are so wise in the Lord! God Bless you every step!!

Deborah

 

[Margarite]

ac23,
That is the exact reason why Dustin’s Dad, Irish Saints, and I were siding with caution reguarding the Charismatic movement. We did not say it as well as you, but the whole emotion is more important than everything else was what we did not like.
Now, I know that there are probably many Charismatic groups that are good, but I have only been in contact with people who were part of the feel good, know nothing groups.

In my youth group, there were quite a few kids who were part of the Charismatic movement. I noticed that they loved God, that they liked to pray, and that they wanted others to become Christian too. You know the old saying “You must know God to love him, and you must love him to serve him, and you must serve him to enjoy eternity with him” or " You must know, love and serve God." Well, these kids were missing the first step, the step of knowing God, so I wondered, do they really love God. I mean I know they love the idea of God that they have, but if they don’t really know who he is, can they really love him? The Catholic Church is the only sure way of knowing God, so without knowledge of the Church, and of the Church’s explanations of God, how can they really love God, and not just their idea of God. I don’t know if I am clear. I hope I am.

Anyways,
Deborah, are you saying that you are in the Church? Are you officially Catholic? I think I remember you saying that you were just a fallen away Catholic, so do you mean that you have come back? That you have been to confession and are now able to recieve Holy Communion on Easter? I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO Happy for you! Last Easter a good friend of ours who had never been any religion, joined his family in the Church, it causes his family so much joy, and I hope the same will be for you.
How is your son taking it?

I better go before I talk your eyes off
HAVE A HOLY GOOD FRIDAY
**AND A HAPPY AND BLESSED EASTER! **

 

[Margarite]

As long as we are talking about this again, I want to tell you about something.

A few Sundays ago, we went to a NO mass that was said partly in Latin. Father has asked the men to wear slacks and a collared shirt, and the women to dress equally nice. Well, there was a man who was wearing shorts and a t-shirt (I am sure he was not there when Father made his announcment, but I am just telling you this because it made him stand out even more).
Anyways, this man had taken his shoes off and was standing and talking out loud (loud enough that everyone in the church could hear his voice, but not the words) and raising his hands up in the air. At different parts of the mass where it was quiet (there is no choir so no songs during mass) he would stand up and talk out loud again so that no one could hear the words, but so that everyone could hear his voice. Then when he went to recieve holy communion he knelt down on the steps leading to the altar and staid their until the priest sat down. After mass he stood up and talked some more.
Then he went out and washed his hands in the holy water font and put his shoes on.
It was very strange, I am sure it was part of some movement, and that he just went to the wrong mass, and while he did nothing wrong, he was very distracting. I realized for the first time why every mass is basically the same and why people are supposed to sit, kneel and stand together, it is very distracting when a person decides not to “go with the flow” and distraction during the most important part of the week is not a good thing.
Do you al think he was part of some Charismatic movement? He was Mexican (I don’t know if this is relevant).
Have a Blessed Easter,

 

[ac23]

The Catholic Church has always had the Holy Spirit. Every Mass we witness a miracle. Our sacraments have always had healing power. If our missionaries needed tongues to convey the gospel I’m sure the Holy Spirit has obliged. So I guess I’m just wondering why have a movement to get something that was already there?

I think it has to do with maturity. People want miracles because they thirst for God. Knowing the reality of the Eucharist and receiving Jesus in Holy Communion has satisfied the initial “nagging longing” I had–and it’s made me even thirstier for God at the same time. Of the Charismatics I’ve encountered in the past, many were ignorant through no fault of their own.

I myself had joined a charismatic group lead by a Franciscan priest in the Philippines.

…

But, I guess, there was no action since the Franciscan father is still at large doing his “mission”.

He wouldn’t happen to be Fr. Archie Guriba, would he?

I had been involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for many years and I believe I was led there by the Holy Spirit through one of many doors into my Fathers House. As a wandering drug addicted athiest at the time I needed the visual and emotional experience and the comraderie that the prayer meetings provided. (Not everybody does but I think that often wounded people do and that this is one of many ways that Jesus leads many back into the fold.)

Anyone who prays and studies with an open mind and heart will be led to the truth and thus to the sacraments of the Church. True some people get caught up in the emotion and end up going from one emotional experience to the next and never allow themselves to mature spiritually but then many other people get caught up in the politics or other church activities and miss or forget the central meaning of our Faith too.

I agree with you. Again though, I believe that not every prayer group that claims to be CCR really is, but the one you talk about seems legit to me.

Something just as important to legit CCR groups in my mind is the Gift of Discernment–of spirits to be exact. My former group, through 10+ years of existence at the time, never had a spiritual director NOR did it have someone to discern just exactly what was going on.

We always emphasized Tongues over all the other Charismatic gifts. Looking back on it now, I know I did not have this gift and that I was faking it. Talking to my friends about their experiences, they admit too that they did not feel genuine with this rolling of the tongue / babbling noise.

ac23,
That is the exact reason why Dustin’s Dad, Irish Saints, and I were siding with caution reguarding the Charismatic movement. We did not say it as well as you, but the whole emotion is more important than everything else was what we did not like.
Now, I know that there are probably many Charismatic groups that are good, but I have only been in contact with people who were part of the feel good, know nothing groups.

In my youth group, there were quite a few kids who were part of the Charismatic movement. I noticed that they loved God, that they liked to pray, and that they wanted others to become Christian too. You know the old saying “You must know God to love him, and you must love him to serve him, and you must serve him to enjoy eternity with him” or " You must know, love and serve God." Well, these kids were missing the first step, the step of knowing God, so I wondered, do they really love God. I mean I know they love the idea of God that they have, but if they don’t really know who he is, can they really love him? The Catholic Church is the only sure way of knowing God, so without knowledge of the Church, and of the Church’s explanations of God, how can they really love God, and not just their idea of God. I don’t know if I am clear. I hope I am.

Emotion is a powerful thing, especially for teenagers. I guess the way my former group saw it (and the majority of my fellow parishioners currently see it) is this: “Hey, here’s a kid at Church, not doing drugs, having fun worshipping God. There can’t possibly be anything wrong with the picture! Just be happy about it! Praise God!”

I used to get into many debates wanting to provide meatier talks with more Catechetical angles to provide the youth what they needed but the leader would relay her own experiences about being dried out over Catholic school and how the most important thing was to “hook” everyone by the “movement” of the Holy Spirit
and really push personal Bible study which would in turn lead to them growing closer to God.

This was dangerous for a lot of people because they went off and interpreted Scripture for themselves without any sound basis in Church Tradition and without a guiding hand from the Magisterium.

So many from the prayer group never got any deeper in their faith and when they stopped attending prayer meetings they stopped attending Mass as well.

Proverbs 19:2 “Without knowledge even zeal is not good.”

What happens when the zeal, the excitement dies off? If there’s nothing substantial to hold onto, you fall off.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

HI here deacon Ed B. and others…

…by the way? I have just joined St Peter the Apostle catholic church…make a long story short…I have already been approached by the Eucharistic ministry…

Hello Deborahssong - It is wonderful to have you on line again. If I may ask, what city is the church, Peter, Prince of the Apostles. We have one in my city. If you don’t want people to know where you are, send me a private message if you want to tell me. I understand if you would not want to. I myself am hesitant to put down the city I am in.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Margarite]

Emotion is a powerful thing, especially for teenagers. I guess the way my former group saw it (and the majority of my fellow parishioners currently see it) is this: “Hey, here’s a kid at Church, not doing drugs, having fun worshipping God. There can’t possibly be anything wrong with the picture! Just be happy about it! Praise God!”

I used to get into many debates wanting to provide meatier talks with more Catechetical angles to provide the youth what they needed but the leader would relay her own experiences about being dried out over Catholic school and how the most important thing was to “hook” everyone by the “movement” of the Holy Spirit
and really push personal Bible study which would in turn lead to them growing closer to God.

This was dangerous for a lot of people because they went off and interpreted Scripture for themselves without any sound basis in Church Tradition and without a guiding hand from the Magisterium.

So many from the prayer group never got any deeper in their faith and when they stopped attending prayer meetings they stopped attending Mass as well.

Proverbs 19:2 “Without knowledge even zeal is not good.”

What happens when the zeal, the excitement dies off? If there’s nothing substantial to hold onto, you fall off.

In our group the leader knew less than most of the kids and she was part of the Charismatic movement. Whenever my sisters and I tried to correct her she would be very inclusive. For example:
One time a girl came and led grace with “Jesus is a dude. Thank you dude for our food.” My sisters and I went up to the leader and told her that it was horrible and irreverent to refer to God as a dude. The next week she had my sisters and I lead the traditional grace and then she said that if anyone else had a before dinner thanksgiving that they wanted to share they could do that too.
We were part of the group for a year and then quite because we were getting nowhere.
90% of the kids in that group went to mass at most once a month and only went because their friend was going or something like that. They went to the youth group to talk and laugh and eat with eachother. They were extremely rude and disrespectful of any adults and they were always hanging on eachother and sitting on eachother’s laps. Even girls on boys and boys on girls laps. There is only so much they will listen to from someone their own age.

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for posting! You put it all perfectly. In some ways I hate to respond because what you say is so perfect and I don’t mean to sound as though I am adding or subtracting from what you said. I am just thanking you.

We are the zealots for Truth and Knowledge, let’s stick together.

Have a Blessed Easter: