Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Thank you Natsclem
We need to pray for the leaders of Catholic Charismatic Renewal that they be granted the gift of discernment regarding “Devotions” and traditional Catholic piety. They see a spiritual battle between renewal and return to “devotions”. Although the terminology may be different, the Charisms have always been present in the 2000 years of the Church and it is the gift of prophecy that has given the Church the Devotions. One lay leader does not see the Rosary as an openness to the Holy Spirit but AS A RETURN TO TRADITIONAL PIETY. In the latest edition of Good News, a priest, prominent in renewal, claims a spiritual battle between liturgical renewal and a REVERSION TO “DEVOTIONS”. He claims devotions produce religious sentiment rather than promoting conversion. The truth is exactly the opposite because devotions are the result of prophecy and the purpose of saying them is to produce conversions. The world is full of testimonies to Heaven intervening in the life of the Catholic Church through charismatic gifts given to “prophets”, often by the Queen of Prophets Herself. It is through prophets that traditional teaching is reiterated in areas such as the souls in Purgatory, the role of angels, even the very existence of Hell and satan, but perhaps most importantly the powerful role of Our Lady in Salvation History. The very words of the devotions give the constant teaching of the Church as the Holy Spirit reveals all Truth. Consider the Divine Mercy Devotions given by Jesus to St Faustina; a gift for our times. The timing of mystical revelations is always appropriate for the state of the world and it is no coincidence that given the present seeming triumph of evil, Heaven is intervening in a powerful way these days. If disasters predicted by secular humanists come to pass, can Christians claim that God didn’t warn them! Prominent Catholics rail against all visionaries and locutionists, claiming infallibilty of discernment just as sola scriptura scholars do. Some claim we shouldn’t give credence to any mystical claim if the Church hasn’t passed a positive judgement but they forget that there would be nothing for the Church to investigate unless many believed first. “I bless you Father for concealing these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to mere children” (words of Jesus). Throughout the history of the Church, every holy person, canonized saint or not, who claimed direct messages from Heaven suffered persecution from within the Church just as the present ones do. People who cannot believe in miracles find it easy to calumniate those who claim them.
God bless

 

[Margarite]

Dustins dad,

Where in the world do you get ALLLLLLLof your information? I mean I am just at a loss for words…however I am going to continue in this communication anyway…I am truly trying to soak in what you are saying about the catholic church in general… However I still believe that scripture is all true…and I found out today that so does the catholic church…they DO BASE their dogma, their canon, on the Sacred Scriptures! THAT is, in what I have studied thus far…etc…

Deborah

Deborah,
I am so excited for you! I just want to jump up and down for joy! I wish I could share your revelation with my family, but since they don’t know how you have struggled and finally seen the light. I will say an extra prayer or two for you tonight so that the Holy Ghost will continue to strengthen you in your newfound knowledge and will sustain you in the coming struggle. For there will be a struggle and there will be hard times ahead because the Devil wants your soul and he will not give you up ever. But remember on your darkest day, that we are here and we will try our hardest to help you fight the enemy.
Your Friend Through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: Sorry, everyone for not keeping up with the posts, I am trying to get my application into Wyoming Catholic College. I pray that I get in!

 

[Alexios]

You know upon reading this thread, it would be too exhausting to try and counter the arguments for charismaticism. All I will say is that some people here need to realize when a Pope is infallible and when he is not. Just because a Pope says or supports something doesn’t make it infallible.

Crossing the line into near pope-worship (for some reason, only the post-V2 Popes that agree with their reasoning) is dangerously close here, and I’m not talking about the traditionalists…

 

[Polycarp1]

I had been involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for many years and I believe I was led there by the Holy Spirit through one of many doors into my Fathers House. As a wandering drug addicted athiest at the time I needed the visual and emotional experience and the comraderie that the prayer meetings provided. (Not everybody does but I think that often wounded people do and that this is one of many ways that Jesus leads many back into the fold.)

Anyone who prays and studies with an open mind and heart will be led to the truth and thus to the sacraments of the Church. True some people get caught up in the emotion and end up going from one emotional experience to the next and never allow themselves to mature spiritually but then many other people get caught up in the politics or other church activities and miss or forget the central meaning of our Faith too. Its true that some other Pentecostals Christians think that the Renewal is a split off from the Catholic Church and have tried with some sucess to lead weaker members away. Many more Catholics who dont go to Charismatic prayer meetings have been lead away too so I dont think that is particularly strange as anyone who doesn’t believe by faith in the real presence of Christ in the Euchrist is vulnerable.

I was a prayer group attendee and leader for many years but don’t go anymore, not because I believe it was wrong, but because I believe as I matured spiritually I was lead by the Holy Spirit to focus on the Eucharist and being part of the larger community of the Faithful. Many people who “went through the Renewal” are now active and practicing “regular” Catholics. I don’t believe the Charismatic Renewal was or is an end but a beginning for many, with the end being at the Mass and the Eucharist.

It is true that many emotional wounded people are lead or attracted to Charismatic Prayer Meetings and thus you get some strange reports about what goes on from time to time. But any activity of Catholics must be completely obedient to the hierarchy of the Church and in no way can be a seperate entity as the Spirit would never lead his flock away from the fold.

As a prayer group leader in the Renewal I think the Lord used the more visible gifts of the Spirit to lead this part of His flock back into the Truth of Church teachings in fact most of the people I knew earlier in the Renewal are now very active in their parishes and don’t go to meetings anymore. I think that was the path the Lord intended for them. I also believe that many people are being still lead to the Renewal by the Holy Spirit and that as he works in them their faith will grow stronger to the point where it wont need the emotional aspects but will be based on what they know to be truth.

It is the responsibility of a Charismatic Prayer group leader to ensure that nothing contrary to Church teachings goes on or is allowed to go on and to rebut anything does. We have had to ask some people to leave meetings if they persisted in saying anything contrary to Church Doctrine.

I know that for many the type of praise that happens at Charismatic meetings seems strange, and that open emotion makes many uncomfortable but I would not be too much with concerned with these things as long as the followerers are being obediant to the will and direction of the Clergy and Church Doctrine.

 

[Margarite]

As far as suffering, God can allow suffering. Just read the life of St. Catherine of Siena; She asked God to allow her to suffer the pain her father would have felt in purgatory so that he could go straight to heaven when he died. Ever after she had a burning pain in her heart. God gave St. Catherine of Siena and St. Francis of Assisi (just to name two) the stigmata. This is God allowing suffering for others.
Somewhere in St. Paul, I cannot find where at the moment, St. Paul says that we must make up in suffering what was lacking in Christ’s suffering. Basically he is saying that Christ suffered 75% of the suffering needed to make up for all of mankinds’ sins, and it is up to us to suffer the remaining 25%, and if we suffer 26% then Christ only suffered 74%. It is strange, that today, 2000 years after Christ we can help Christ on Calvary by suffering, we can make it so that Christ suffered less. You see he only needed to make up for what was lacking, so if we suffer, we take away from what Christ needed to suffer and thus he suffers less.
Just think that everytime we suffer well, we are keeping Christ from losing one drop of blood, or if we are suffering greatly, we may be keeping the whip from hitting Christ one time. I believe that is why many saints would wear hair shirts and would sleep on boards and submit themselves to all sorts of suffering.
I am far from making myself suffer, I am a weakling and far from saintly, and I know that it also says in St. Paul (this was in the readings at mass a few weeks ago) that we need to care for our bodies. We should not eat or give ourselves more than we need, but we must not hurt our bodies permanently. So, from this I gather, that God does not like suffering, (it is only through sin that suffering entered the world), but also that God allows suffering and that suffering can be made into something holy if we suffer “well” and if we tie our sufferings to Christ’s.

So, avoid causing suffering that will permanently hurt you, and unless, you know that you can stand up to the devil when he comes to tempt you, do not cause yourself needless suffering, but when suffering comes, seemingly of its own accord, accept it joyfully and prayerfully. I feel bad speaking of this when I have never suffered greatly, and I am sure that I would not suffer well, because I am a wimp, but I am basically just saying what the Church and St. Paul say, so…

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[DustinsDad]

Margarite,

Thanks for your post above. I need to make a comment on this part though…

…Basically he is saying that Christ suffered 75% of the suffering needed to make up for all of mankinds’ sins, and it is up to us to suffer the remaining 25%, and if we suffer 26% then Christ only suffered 74%. It is strange, that today, 2000 years after Christ we can help Christ on Calvary by suffering, we can make it so that Christ suffered less. You see he only needed to make up for what was lacking, so if we suffer, we take away from what Christ needed to suffer and thus he suffers less. …

Nothing was lacking in what Christ suffered, in that He didn’t suffer enough to redeem us and we need to add to it to make the sacrifice perfect. I think what Paul is talking about here is our part - our being drawn *into *Christ’s passion and death. And our doing this for love of the Lord, the Lord takes and binds it to His and applies it out into the Church.

It’s an awesome mystery still, and a confusing passage in alot of ways.

About the rest - very deep stuff to ponder. I think in alot of ways, the greatest suffering Our Lord underwent was, as God, seeing all seeing all the souls throughout time who would reject what He was undergoing for them at that very moment.

But then think about the joy and love He must feel when we turn to Him in repentance, accept the gift He won for us on the cross at the price of His own blood, and go so far as to willingly suffer for His sake, for the sake of the Kingdom, for the sake of all those other souls out there. Awesome stuff.

While we’re on this topic, here’s a good homily available online:

Loving God: Why does it involve suffering?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I must strongly disagree with the statement that true Catholic Charismatics discourage devotions such as the rosary. Almost all of the Charismatic meetings and groups with which I have been associated 1. Encourage Eucharistic Adoration, 2 Attendance of daily mass and communion if able, 3, recitation of the rosary, 4. recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours and 5. Pray. Pray. Pray.
In no way, shape or form, would I call this under the guidance of the father of lies. He cannot even say “Praise be Jesus Christ”, which is a frequent utterance of praise at these meetings and conferences. Discernment was mentioned. Practice discernment based on sound Catholic Teaching. If one says, as a priest, that he no longer believes in the transubstantantion, you know which way to go. i.e., away from him to one solidly grounded in our one true faith and who practices and teaches it. The authentic Catholic Charismatic movement, DOES NOT teach or encourage anything contrary to the magesterium, but rather uses it as its guide.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - Sorry I did not get back to you earlier, but duty called. That said, lets jump in where we left off. I will start by saying that there is no dichotomy. There can be a broader understanding of the documents of VII, but never a contradiction. The abuses you have seen in the Church since VII have been because of a misunderstanding of what was said. I have read the documents of VII, in fact they were part of the diaconate formation. Also, there has been no “oops” as you have said. What the Church has said, is there was sin on both sides for the reformation. That said, those descendants born into the separation did not cause it. Where is their sin? If baptized with the proper form and language, their baptism is still valid. As they grow, even if taught erroneous doctrine, where is their fault? Re read CCC # 818 in this light. We are talking about millions who were born, raised and died before this so-called modern age, where we have instant communication. What sin did these people commit? Do these questions in any way state that the Catholic Church is not the One True, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. No it does not, because that is what we are. There is no indifferentism here. Not all churches are alike, nor are each as good as the other. the Catholic Church alone has the fullness of revelation and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This being said, if the Catholic Church said what it did, as in paragraphs # 817-819 I look at it in that light also. Just because something was said in the past, does not mean that a broader understanding can never be had in the future. God is not now suddenly merciful, as you asked. That infinite mercy has always been there. Thank God for that!. Could God have done any more for our salvation than what he did? The answer is that he did more than what is necessary simply to show us the extent of his love and mercy. I totally agree that the sin of one can lead to the sin of another. But remember, this in not an inherited sin on the part of their descendants. I hope this helps. Look at where the Church is going, not just where it has been. Where is it going? It is going on the path of truth, a broader understanding of that truth and seeking unity with those who are open to our doctrines. These doctrines will never be changed for accomodation. That does not mean we are closed to any other doctrine being declared. If that were so, there would be several just since the reformation which we would not have. Should we pray for its leaders, the pope and bishops, priests and deacons. I do every day, because we all need them. Should we pray for the Church also. Yes. I do every day, because the Church is the people who make up the Mystical Body of Christ. I hope this helps. I just wish we could have a direct conversation where we could discuss this direct with each other. I feel much is lost in going back and forth like this. God bless and know you are in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B

 

[latinmass]

A broader way of understanding doctrine from V2 is the rationalization of changing and even contradicting doctrine. All the points DustinsDad makes are accurate. The modernists use this phrase " broader way of interpreting doctrine" to lead many astray. The Deposit of Faith is forever and unchanging, and it is the job of the Vatican down to the Deacons to defend it throught the ages, not make relativist assurtions which change the meaning and lead those who do not know any better away from the truth.

 

[latinmass]

On a thread on now “Vatican ll has the same Authority as Trent” there is post #64 which speaks directly to what doctrine has been more clearly defined. As you will see, there is nothing in V2 regarding EENS doctrinally, thus anything stated in V2 regarding EENS must be read in light of all previous teachings which are crytal clear.

 

[po18guy]

Can you send a link? I would be interested to see what the See of Peter has to say about this subject.

I note that. before many passages in the NT, it begins with, “And. filled with the Holy Spirit, they…”

Some Charismatic groups go overboard by insisting that you speak and/or pray in tongues to be genuine. Or, that it is something to be desired. Nonsense! Paul taught that the gift of prophecy was to be preferred, as it built the church up, rather than than the individual, as in tongues (without a translator).

1 Corinthians 14:5 “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified”.

 

[Margarite]

Deacon Ed B,
I am having trouble understanding what you are saying.
Are you saying that the Church has changed its stance and suddenly become more lenient? I think that many Catholics have mistaken Vatican II as a sort of relaxation, when really it was not that at all.
Vatican II allowed the mass to be said in the vanacular so everyone thought that meant that the Church was throwing out the old and allowing almost anything in with the new. No one knew what the Vatican II said, so when a few inventive people decided to do or try some new ideas, everyone else followed because they thought that these inventive people knew what they were doing. Well, now we are up to our eyeballs in everyone having a different idea of what Vatican II said.
Now this is where we trads say, “Look to the past for guidance for the future. Look to where the great saints were and to where they faced similar turmoil. Learn from history.” Forgetting the past has been the downfall of many, and I think that Pope Benedict will help to save the Church because he does look to the past. You may say that Christ said that the Church would survive, well yes it will because of people like our Pope.

 

[DustinsDad]

To Dustin’s Dad - Sorry I did not get back to you earlier, but duty called.

That is fine - and thank you for remembering me at Mass.

I will start by saying that there is no dichotomy. There can be a broader understanding of the documents of VII, but never a contradiction. The abuses you have seen in the Church since VII have been because of a misunderstanding of what was said.

To the first part there, I would say dichotomy can be present or not depending on how the documents are interpreted. I think alot of stuff is left hanging in ambeguity. Read one way (in the light of all that has gone on before) and there are no contradictions, while read another way (and perhaps the more popular way these days), there are contradicitons.

I have read the documents of VII, in fact they were part of the diaconate formation.

Me too - but not in any formal classes, just on my own. In your formation, did you also study Trent, Vatican II, pre-Counciliar encyclicals, etc?

Also, there has been no “oops” as you have said. What the Church has said, is there was sin on both sides for the reformation.

Well, please clarify that one. I think it’s a dangerously ambiguous statement because many, MANY, even in the clergy, take this too mean Luther was right on some of his teachings that contradicted the Church and that the Church was wrong in some of it’s doctrinal teaching. If you want to say that there were some sinners in the Church and some bad behavior - well of course. But that goes without saying. To just leave the phrase dangling like that causes folks to question anything and everything Holy Mother Church proposes as Truth…and that strikes to the core of harming the faith.

That said, those descendants born into the separation did not cause it. Where is their sin?

There is no sin in being born into such a situation, just like there is no sin in being born into a pagan family. But there is sin in remaining in that state after hearing the Gospel call to conversion:Acts 17:30-31

And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance. Because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in equity, by the man whom he hath appointed; giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead.

If baptized with the proper form and language, their baptism is still valid. As they grow, even if taught erroneous doctrine, where is their fault?

Yes the baptism can be valid with proper form, matter and intent. And we can assume that as children they are in a state of invincible and inculpable ignorance. They are in the Church by baptism and so are members of Her, but they not formal members visibly. But here’s where it gets tricky…as they grow up and reach the age of reason they are objectively holding to erroneous teachings, heresy that has been condemned by the Church. Now if (and I’d say most often when) they do hear about the Catholic Church, invincible ignorance can easily cross over to willful ignorance or willful rejection. It’s the same as an unbaptized pagan who rejects the Gospel invitation - invincible ignorance can cross over to willful ignorance or willful rejection.

Looking at it one way and you can say the pagan has it easier (and can be more culpable) because the Truth of Christ will stand in starker contrast than the darkness he is in.

But looking at it another way, you can say the validly baptized Protestant has the grace of that initial valid Baptism to help guide him on into the One True Church.

God sees their heart and will so judge accordingly. We can’t see this. But no matter what the case of the individual’s heart, since we can’t see it, the it becomes a no-brainer for the Church - the call to conversion for the Salvation of their souls and for the glory of God must be clear. As clear as was Peter’s call to those at Penticost.

Here’s an analogy: Let’s say there are 10 medicine bottles, five have poison tablets, five have plain ol’ asparin, and you have no way of knowing which is which, but in the meantime you have a medicine bottle in your pocket that you are 100% sure has no poison and is pure asparin. Okay. Now let’s say your buddy grabs one and starts to take two pills. Do we merely show him the medicine bottle we have in our pocket and start talking about how nice it is? Do we tell him what a nice medicine bottle he has and proceed to show him all the similarities between our two medicine bottles and rejoice that we both contain medicine bottles that are quite nice?

Or do we calmly and with much charity (so as not to harden his heart) tell him that for the safety of his life, he needs to put that bottle down and take the only one we know is safe?

(continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(cointinued from above…)

Re read CCC # 818 in this light. We are talking about millions who were born, raised and died before this so-called modern age, where we have instant communication. What sin did these people commit?

See above concerning the objective sin of “remaining separated” and of rejecting Truth. To the degree to which they are culpable is the degree to which they are guilty of this. And we can’t see this because we don’t see the invisible graces of God that prompt the heart to seek out His Church. This also doesn’t take into account just how much we need the Sacraments to persevere to the end. Even 100% invincible and inculpable, these folks still do not have access to many of the Sacraments the Good Lord gave us precisely because we need them. Remember, even the invincible ignorant of Christ’s Church have to die in a state of Sanctifying Grace. How hard is that for us weak human sinners even with the awesome gifts of the Sacraments at our disposal - and should we relax when so many are without them?

Should we pray for its leaders, the pope and bishops, priests and deacons. I do every day, because we all need them. Should we pray for the Church also. Yes. I do every day, because the Church is the people who make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

Amen!

I hope this helps. I just wish we could have a direct conversation where we could discuss this direct with each other. I feel much is lost in going back and forth like this. God bless and know you are in my prayers.

It does help - but it’d be better to sit down and talk over a good hot cup of coffee. Maybe some day eh? Thanks for the prayers and for the conversation. You are on my list as well.

Thanks and peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I had been involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for many years and I believe I was led there by the Holy Spirit through one of many doors into my Fathers House. As a wandering drug addicted athiest at the time I needed the visual and emotional experience and the comraderie that the prayer meetings provided. (Not everybody does but I think that often wounded people do and that this is one of many ways that Jesus leads many back into the fold.)

Anyone who prays and studies with an open mind and heart will be led to the truth and thus to the sacraments of the Church. True some people get caught up in the emotion and end up going from one emotional experience to the next and never allow themselves to mature spiritually but then many other people get caught up in the politics or other church activities and miss or forget the central meaning of our Faith too. Its true that some other Pentecostals Christians think that the Renewal is a split off from the Catholic Church and have tried with some sucess to lead weaker members away. Many more Catholics who dont go to Charismatic prayer meetings have been lead away too so I dont think that is particularly strange as anyone who doesn’t believe by faith in the real presence of Christ in the Euchrist is vulnerable.

I was a prayer group attendee and leader for many years but don’t go anymore, not because I believe it was wrong, but because I believe as I matured spiritually I was lead by the Holy Spirit to focus on the Eucharist and being part of the larger community of the Faithful. Many people who “went through the Renewal” are now active and practicing “regular” Catholics. I don’t believe the Charismatic Renewal was or is an end but a beginning for many, with the end being at the Mass and the Eucharist.

It is true that many emotional wounded people are lead or attracted to Charismatic Prayer Meetings and thus you get some strange reports about what goes on from time to time. But any activity of Catholics must be completely obedient to the hierarchy of the Church and in no way can be a seperate entity as the Spirit would never lead his flock away from the fold.

As a prayer group leader in the Renewal I think the Lord used the more visible gifts of the Spirit to lead this part of His flock back into the Truth of Church teachings in fact most of the people I knew earlier in the Renewal are now very active in their parishes and don’t go to meetings anymore. I think that was the path the Lord intended for them. I also believe that many people are being still lead to the Renewal by the Holy Spirit and that as he works in them their faith will grow stronger to the point where it wont need the emotional aspects but will be based on what they know to be truth.

It is the responsibility of a Charismatic Prayer group leader to ensure that nothing contrary to Church teachings goes on or is allowed to go on and to rebut anything does. We have had to ask some people to leave meetings if they persisted in saying anything contrary to Church Doctrine.

I know that for many the type of praise that happens at Charismatic meetings seems strange, and that open emotion makes many uncomfortable but I would not be too much with concerned with these things as long as the followerers are being obediant to the will and direction of the Clergy and Church Doctrine.

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I can identify with everything Polycarp1 shared of his views and experience in Renewal apart from the initial encounter. About three years ago at a leaders meeting I attended (I was never a leader but was invited by a friend who was), someone asked the question of the national Chairman at the time what he should do about people who prayed the Hail Mary and the reply was that he should very firmly quench it and say it was inadmissible in a charismatic prayer group. I didn’t comment as others present knew I wasn’t a leader and rightly could have told me I was out of order so I didn’t take the matter further. It was in the January 2008issue of Good News magazine that the article I was unhappy about was printed. I will say more in reply to Deacon EdB to obtain his comments.

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I must strongly disagree with the statement that true Catholic Charismatics discourage devotions such as the rosary. Almost all of the Charismatic meetings and groups with which I have been associated 1. Encourage Eucharistic Adoration, 2 Attendance of daily mass and communion if able, 3, recitation of the rosary, 4. recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours and 5. Pray. Pray. Pray.
In no way, shape or form, would I call this under the guidance of the father of lies. He cannot even say “Praise be Jesus Christ”, which is a frequent utterance of praise at these meetings and conferences. Discernment was mentioned. Practice discernment based on sound Catholic Teaching. If one says, as a priest, that he no longer believes in the transubstantantion, you know which way to go. i.e., away from him to one solidly grounded in our one true faith and who practices and teaches it. The authentic Catholic Charismatic movement, DOES NOT teach or encourage anything contrary to the magesterium, but rather uses it as its guide.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

To Deacon Ed B
I have never discerned evil spirits in any Charismatic prayer meeting or days of Renewal and the two groups I am familiar with pray all the devotions he cites. I would like his comments about this article in Good News by a priest prominent in Renewal. Quote: “Historically, devotions grew up in the Catholic Church as a sustitute for living liturgy (the Orthodox Church has no tradition of non or extra-liturgical devotions.) There is a big spiritual battle in the Catholic Church for liturgical renewal versus a reversion to “devotions”. Authentic renewal in the Catholic Church will be strongly liturgical and will in this way be deeply biblical. The devotions are for the most part not strongly anchored in the Scriptures, tending to produce religious sentiment rather than to promote conversion.” The author then quoted several names (European) who noted: “…devotions do not form character; they do not produce prophets…they lack the prophetic thrust of the Biblical Word”.

Father then went to say he wasn’t advocating the abolition of all devotions, without once specifying any particular one but in the whole article Our Lady was not mentioned once.

In my reply I pointed out that devotions came as a result of prophecy and only came to the Catholic Church because the Holy Spirit spoke to the one true Church more deeply and continuously because Jesus so promised He would lead Her into “all Truth”. The twenty odd thousand Protestant Churches all only hold that part of the Truth that they hold in common with the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church didn’t develop any deeper Truth after the breakaway from the Western Church but remain static at the point of separation. My attendance at five out of the eight International Symposia on Marian Co-Redemption helped me understand God’s revelation of Truth by studies on the Early Church Fathers, how they interpreted Scripture, especially the “Woman” of Genesis3:15, Revelation 12:1 and how Jesus identified Mary by calling Her “Woman” at Cana and from the Cross, (both of which have a depth of meaning Protestants in the main refuse to accept because of sola scriptura heresy which gives them the power to deny truths developed in the first fifteen hundred years of the Church). Combined with the teaching at Church Councils, Papal Encyclicals often influenced by mystical revelations, Old Testament Scripture Readings at the Eucharistic Feast Days which prefigure the role of Our Lady in Salvation History; not forgetting sensus fidelium. The Sub Tuum prayer, identified as third century, fragments of which are in a local Manchester Museum, calls Mary " O Holy Mother of God" before The Church defined the dogma at Ephesus in the 4th century. (The prayer can be found on the Web.) I traced the devotion to the Sacred Heart with the nine first Fridays, followed by Our Lady at Fatima requesting the five first Saturday culminating in the devotion to the Alliance of the Two Hearts powerfully promoted by Pope John Paul II. Jesus himself requested the Divine Mercy Devotions which is a follow up and endorsement of the Sacred Heart, through St Faustina. All these devotions are expressly for conversions and sent by heaven. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not mentioned either in the article, so I don’t know how the priest feels about that.

My view is that Charismatic Renewal is of the Holy Spirit and has reconciled many Christians in spite of my occasional personal experience. I still attend Churches Together when possible and have been our parish representative for nearly thirty years for the Womens World day of Prayer. My daughter in law is a Methodist Lay Preacher and two out of three of their girls are Methodists, by choice after attending Catholic primary and secondary Schools which gave abysmal teaching of our faith. I believe that Charismatic Renewal and “devotions” are not in opposition but complementary and overlapping. The opposition within the Church lies with those who are fulfilling the prophecy of St Paul for the last days; “They will keep up the outward appearance of religion but reject the inner power of it”.(2 Timothy 3:5

 

[natsclem]

Nothing was lacking in what Christ suffered, in that He didn’t suffer enough to redeem us and we need to add to it to make the sacrifice perfect. I think what Paul is talking about here is our part - our being drawn *into *Christ’s passion and death. And our doing this for love of the Lord, the Lord takes and binds it to His and applies it out into the Church.

It’s an awesome mystery still, and a confusing passage in alot of ways.

But then think about the joy and love He must feel when we turn to Him in repentance, accept the gift He won for us on the cross at the price of His own blood, and go so far as to willingly suffer for His sake, for the sake of the Kingdom, for the sake of all those other souls out there. Awesome stuff.

But that is what Paul said–lacking. The Suffering of Christ is perfectly efficacious in the sense that what He did is enough for our redemption and nothing can add to its efficacy. But it is like an efficacious medicine. Unless you take it, it cannot cure you. Obedience to God’s Will entails sufferings in many ways–physical, psychological, material, social, etc. That obedience is precisely that which is lacking in His suffering that we must fill up. The equation should not be 75% + 25% = 100% but 100% x 1 = 100%. You see in the last equation, 1 doesn’t add to the efficacy of Christ’s suffering. It just completes the equation of REDEMPTION.

 

[DustinsDad]

But that is what Paul said–lacking. The Suffering of Christ is perfectly efficacious in the sense that what He did is enough for our redemption and nothing can add to its efficacy. But it is like an efficacious medicine. Unless you take it, it cannot cure you. Obedience to God’s Will entails sufferings in many ways–physical, psychological, material, social, etc. That obedience is precisely that which is lacking in His suffering that we must fill up. The equation should not be 75% + 25% = 100% but 100% x 1 = 100%. You see in the last equation, 1 doesn’t add to the efficacy of Christ’s suffering. It just completes the equation of REDEMPTION.

I’d agree with that. .