Charismatic Roman Catholicism

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As St. Pius X stated modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. Charismatism is a subset of modernism.

By Dom Peter Flood, O.S.B., M.D., M.Ch., B.A., B.Comm., J.C.D.
Code:
      Montanism, called after its first and leading sponsor Montanus, has continued since the end of the second century A.D. under various names and in various forms. It remains always the original Phrygian heresy taken up by Montanus somewhere about A.D. 175.

      At different times and in different places it has done and is doing much harm to the Church. Satan, being a pure spirit, by nature does not learn by experience but repeats the old attacks on the True Church and inspires such entitlement of them as will gain their acceptance the more easily, so that even the elect may be deceived for a time.
      
      Under various disguises, this pagan hysteria, often accompanied by eroticism and with deviations from sound doctrine, has appeared at almost every stage of the history of the Church. The Illuminati are the best-known examples, about the time of St. Teresa the Alumbrados. Indeed, it was her sound teaching of the ways of prayer at all levels that destroyed them. Later convulsive Jansenists, and in America such orgiastic groups as holy roller, all added their revivalist expressions of these sad aberrations to the motley of history.

      Today, mainly derived from University groups in the U.S.A., new versions of this same folly have arisen and spread through the Catholic world. Even Rome has not been preserved from such assemblies. Such is the briefest history of what is basically the cult of an individualism and emotional freedom that contains elements which are parapelagian, and which lead to a rejection of the Magisterium of the Church founded by Christ.

      It is the practice of these groups to insinuate themselves under whatever name seems least offensive to local Catholic thought, and later to announce more openly their true character. Thus, bishops and often simple religious, especially women, are deceived, for Satan was a liar from the beginning. Every variety of hysterical manifestation occurs in the meetings of these revivalists, no matter what name they may use. The variety corresponds to the emotional qualities, racial or sexual, of the participants. Beginning in apparent quiet prayer, soon someone starts singing or calling aloud; after a while this becomes more general, and not necessarily do they all sing the same way. A woman may jump up and dance around, apparently joyously and unrestrainedly. This spreads and mutual embracings succeed; for the purely sensitive emotions can easily descend to the erotic or sensual. Someone may call out prayers or for the laying-on of hands, and one or other of those present will hasten to do this. The person affected may then become more hysterical and, as they say, speak or sing in tongues. This glossolalia is not in fact speaking in a strange language, for it is mere gibberish. An interpreter, the chairman or some other person, may proceed to interpret what he alleges the hysteric has said. Faith healing is also indulged in by some groups, but with indifferent success. Those present may be of different creeds; there is no common belief. Every sort of claim is put forward on the basis of false exegesis of Scripture, the commonest being that speaking in tongues reproduces what the Apostles did after Pentecost when, though speaking in their own tongue, each member of the multi-racial crowd heard them in his own language. At these sessions, however, what is uttered is mere gibberish and lacks linguistic structure. Even the promoters of this emotionalism admit that it is open to diabolical illusion, for an evil spirit may manifest himself. This is not an unexpected danger.
 
The whole set-up of these meetings favours suggestion from any prominent personality present, just as much as it favours self-hypnotism. Usually the joy experienced is only sensory excitement, because certain of the lower brain centres are stimulated and out of the control of higher mechanisms. These states can be produced in rats stimulating electrodes inserted into the hypothalamic centres. The organ of speech escapes from higher control and so the person gives vent to gibberish or song deviants. In a word, the phenomena do not exceed those of any simple dissociation experience and the victims become hysterical and no longer in control of themselves. A considerable study has been made by Samarin from tape recordings, and he suggests that glossolalia always turn out to be the same thing: strings of syllables, made up of sounds known to the subject. He asserts that it is not supernatural. A more technical study has been made by F. D. Goodman, who calls it a vocalization pattern, a speech automatism produced on the substratum of hyperarousal. It is thus just uncontrolled use of the power of vocalization, usual in fits of hysteria and in the tantrums of young children not yet capable of sustained speech. To assert that this is an individual intervention of the Holy Spirit is not only blasphemous and even sacrilegious, but simply stupid. There is no warrant in Scripture or elsewhere for the assertion that baptism of this sort adds anything to, or can replace, the Sacraments of Christ. Every form of self-illusion can be present but these manifestations are DEFINITELY NOT PRAYER, which, as St. Teresa has rightly shown, is an act of the will. She has also pointed out that even in orthodox mental prayer there are, for beginners, dangers of self-illusion. It is easy to believe that words come from God, which in fact come from our own unconscious desires. Unfortunately, like all forms of purely sensory delectation, this emotional arousal can easily and rapidly descend to the sensual level. One writer says, Christian love in many renewal situations unfortunately bears more relationship to “eros” than to “agape” and this not uncommonly between people with commitments which make this kind of relationship inappropriate.
Code:
      A very real danger is a weakening of faith and a contempt for, or actual dislike of, the sacramental order of the Catholic Faith. At first, finding these sensory pleasures in what they have been misled to believe is prayer, many Catholics seem to become more devout, but soon, not finding satisfactions in the calm order of the Church’s liturgy, they drop the practice of the latter. Then comes the greater risk of believing that they are in a higher state than other Catholics and that, being personally in contact with the Holy Spirit, they know more than the Vicar of Christ. An American convert, who has studied this matter, says that they then cease to attend Church, and as they are often practising contraception, they attempt to rationalise this evil by appealing to their private inspiration. This is pure folly! It is the old monanist division between the enlightened and the ordinary Catholic.

      From time to time, Bishops have sought to delimit or denounce this movement and even to exorcise its more prominent supporters. They have lacked success because they are not united, or lacking in firmness. Among these people (charismatics) a kind of para-clericalism soon develops whereby they arrogate to themselves rights and duties which belong properly and solely to Priests in Sacred Orders. This rapidly spreads and despite lip-service to Catholic beliefs, they soon lapse from the Faith. In practice, there are nearly as many beliefs among them as there are groups. Unfortunately, like any other uncontrolled emotion, this love of sensory excitement grows in any community, even in monasteries and convents. Appealing to the emotions and the desire for the bizarre, this movement in all its manifold varieties can do great harm in the Church. For this reason both Religious and laity should be aware of the dangers involved and remain faithful to the approved forms of liturgical and private prayer.
 
We all believe what suits our prejudices and Fatima 1917 is certainly prejudiced against Charismatic Renewal. The modernism previous Popes warned against is the secular humanism that now prevails in the Church as evidenced by the massive falling away from Mass attendance but also includes those that St Paul warned about in the last days; “They will hold to the form of religion but deny the power of it”.(2 Timothy 3:5). Anecdotal evidence suggests that few see the spiritual battle in the heavenly places between God and Satan, having reduced the Kingdom of God to a mere earthly kingdom. Charismatic Renewal is the exact opposite movement to Modernism because they see the necessity of worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

According to our personalities, we can be head or heart Christians and some may never experience a heart encounter with the risen Jesus. It is my personal experience and I have observed it in numerous others over thirty years, how this living encounter, which may be initiated through the Life in the Spirit Seminars brings a new or a return committment to the living Jesus, the fruits of which are an excitement about our faith with a desire to frequent the Sacraments and assist in more ways in the service of parish life. The judgements fatima 1917 makes, are totally alien to me. I admit to a difficulty with speaking in tongues, but I haven’t experienced the awful behaviour he/she speaks about. I have seen lives transformed, marriages healed (with one or two exceptions) and conversions from unbelief or uncommitted. The Illuminati have nothing whatsoever to do with Charismatic Renewal either. I believe it is a secret society that plots against the Church and is preparing a world takeover. Whatever movement people belong to in the Church, the members are seen by others who are not so committed to their faith, as being divisive, thinking themselves superior. But didn’t Jesus warn his followers that they would be persecuted. In fact, if we are not persecuted are we truly His followers?

Take comfort that if the movement is not from God as Gamaliel advised, it will dissipate and disappear as will Medjugorje if Our Lady is not there.
 
We all believe what suits our prejudices and Fatima 1917 is certainly prejudiced against Charismatic Renewal. The modernism previous Popes warned against is the secular humanism that now prevails in the Church as evidenced by the massive falling away from Mass attendance but also includes those that St Paul warned about in the last days; “They will hold to the form of religion but deny the power of it”.(2 Timothy 3:5). Anecdotal evidence suggests that few see the spiritual battle in the heavenly places between God and Satan, having reduced the Kingdom of God to a mere earthly kingdom. Charismatic Renewal is the exact opposite movement to Modernism because they see the necessity of worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

According to our personalities, we can be head or heart Christians and some may never experience a heart encounter with the risen Jesus. It is my personal experience and I have observed it in numerous others over thirty years, how this living encounter, which may be initiated through the Life in the Spirit Seminars brings a new or a return committment to the living Jesus, the fruits of which are an excitement about our faith with a desire to frequent the Sacraments and assist in more ways in the service of parish life. The judgements fatima 1917 makes, are totally alien to me. I admit to a difficulty with speaking in tongues, but I haven’t experienced the awful behaviour he/she speaks about. I have seen lives transformed, marriages healed (with one or two exceptions) and conversions from unbelief or uncommitted. The Illuminati have nothing whatsoever to do with Charismatic Renewal either. I believe it is a secret society that plots against the Church and is preparing a world takeover. Whatever movement people belong to in the Church, the members are seen by others who are not so committed to their faith, as being divisive, thinking themselves superior. But didn’t Jesus warn his followers that they would be persecuted. In fact, if we are not persecuted are we truly His followers?

Take comfort that if the movement is not from God as Gamaliel advised, it will dissipate and disappear as will Medjugorje if Our Lady is not there.
As shown by most of the posters here that are charismatic they are women which operate on emotion and not on logic which the Catholic church is based on. Also probably most are avid followers of Medjugorje which has been condemned by the magesterium of the church and teaches heresy also. Like the article from the priest above charismatics consider themselves a higher form of catholism and above the Bishops. They only listen to the “spirit” but which spirit is it?
 
Why is it putting God into a box to question heretical sects and their miracles? And what does it mean to not discount Protestnt denominations? Are we not to fervantly pray for and work for their return to the One True Church for the salvation of their immortal souls? Or are they ok where they are at - safe and secure and not on the road to eternal ruin? Please, it seems you only want to respond to folks who agree with you, but please try to answer some questions for the rest of us.

Miracles alone are not enough to prove the working of the Holy Spirit. In as much as such things are of the Holy Spirit, they would clearly call those outside the Church to come home for the salvation of their souls and for the glory of God. In as much as these things make the participants “comfortable” outside of Holy Mother Church, they are not and cannot be of the Holy Spirit.

I want to quote some scriptural passages that I really wish you would comment on…
Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Galations 1:6-9
I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.

1 John 4:1
Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
These passages, coupled with the infallibly proclaimed and defined teachings of Holy Mother Church -
“One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215)

“We declare, we say, we define, and we pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. The Lateran, November 14th, in our eighth year. As a perpetual memorial of this matter.” (Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302)

"It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; "
(Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)
…stand in contrast to the position you appear to be taking here and are a huge red flag and cause for alarm for many of us.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
I don’t usually post in this section because I get myself in trouble, but I did want to speak on this point about getting saved. Perhaps traditionalists don’t recognize or accept the catechism on salvation? It seems that some traditionalists I know reject Vat II, and all that came after it, and if that is the case, there is no point bringing this up.

But the Church recognizes that the HS does use other faith communities to draw people into a relationship with God. Although they are separated from the fullness of truth, they do experience authentic sacraments (such as baptism) and are properly considered members of the Church (though improperly joined). There are many Protestants that lead much more holy lives to God than “so called Catholics” (nominal). It is prejudicial not to recognize this.

I was going to share something of my charismatic experiences also, but if there is so much bigotry that the work of the HS cannot be recognized in Protestant communities, what is the use?🤷
 
[/INDENT]Now does that mean that one has to be a *visible *member of the Church to be in the Church - no. The Church has always understood the theoritical nuances that can be present that can, theortically at least, incorporate one into the Church without being a visible member. Thing is, these theoretical nuances have become the norm in many folks’ eyes - and that is religious indifferentism in a nutshell.

Yet the charismatic enthusiast, generally speaking, assumes all these people are just fine “where they are” precisely because they see charisms present at their sects’ meetings and events - thinking that that must be the Holy Spirit, so they must be fine where they are.
This is a very prejudiced view of charismatic enthusiasts. Perhaps the only ones you have known are like this, and you don’t know any better.?
Yet Scripture specifically says such things are not always to be trusted as from the Holy Spirit - and if a different gospel is being preached, then the groups must be rejected and their “leaders” identified as false prophets.

What is from the Holy Spirit is the One True Faith - He *won’t *preach a different Gospel and He *won’t *contradict Himself. Yet from heretical sects that the “Charismatic Renewal” movement was born and made its way into the Church, bringing with it a large dose of religious indifference and confusion. And religious indifference is a damning thing - can lead a soul to eternal ruin. And eternity is a long time to be wrong.

Anyway - those are the concerns of traditional type folks - at least it is for me.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
This just seems like overcompensation to me. It also denies that the HS can use other faith communites. Just because some communities have an incomplete gospel, that does not invalidate teh part they have. Many protestants are like Apol’los:

Acts 18:24-26

24 Now a Jew named Apol’los, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aq’uila heard him, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately.

Our duty to these fervent Christians is to affrim where they are right in the way of the Lord, and to teach them more accurately. Declaring them to be categorically false is not appropriate.
 
I don’t usually post in this section because I get myself in trouble, but I did want to speak on this point about getting saved. Perhaps traditionalists don’t recognize or accept the catechism on salvation? It seems that some traditionalists I know reject Vat II, and all that came after it, and if that is the case, there is no point bringing this up.

But the Church recognizes that the HS does use other faith communities to draw people into a relationship with God. Although they are separated from the fullness of truth, they do experience authentic sacraments (such as baptism) and are properly considered members of the Church (though improperly joined). There are many Protestants that lead much more holy lives to God than “so called Catholics” (nominal). It is prejudicial not to recognize this.
I think you are kind of proving my point. Please keep reading on - the Deacon and I went on discussing these and other concerns of yours.
I was going to share something of my charismatic experiences also, but if there is so much bigotry that the work of the HS cannot be recognized in Protestant communities, what is the use?🤷
By all means, if you want to share your experiences, pleae do. I think the OP was asking about traditionsl views of the Charismatic movement, and I was sharing some concerns.

By the way, I don’t think anything I wrote was bigoted. But then again, the traditional teachings of the Church - you know, those old “rigid” ways, are often accused of as much. I guess one person’s “rigid” is another’s “holding fast”. Hmmmm.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
…This just seems like overcompensation to me. It also denies that the HS can use other faith communites. Just because some communities have an incomplete gospel, that does not invalidate the part they have.
It’s not that they are merely “incomplete” - but that what has been rejected are essential to the Catholic Faith - things given to us by Our Lord because we need them. And not only are they missing, but what has been rejected has been filled in with condemned heresies. This is serious business my friend - with eternal consequenses.
…Many protestants are like Apol’los:

Acts 18:24-26…
Our duty to these fervent Christians is to affrim where they are right in the way of the Lord, and to teach them more accurately. Declaring them to be categorically false is not appropriate.
Well, let’s take a look at this a little more closely:cf Acts 18:24-26
Now a certain Jew, named Apollo, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus, one mighty in the scriptures. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, spoke, and taught diligently the things that are of Jesus, knowing only the baptism of John. This man therefore began to speak boldly in the synagogue…

I’m with ya so far - here’s a guy who loves the Lord and is on fire with the Holy Spirit. He’s preachin’ it! Great! He seems to be lacking the fullness of the truth, probably coming from among a group that was following John the Baptist but apparently not having known the Apostles and the authority Our Lord gave them - that is, he wasn’t aware of the Catholic Church per se. Pretty good analogy so far. But there is something going on here, something rather different than what typically happens these days…cf Acts 18:26-28
…Whom when Priscilla and Aquila had heard, they took him to them, and expounded to him the way of the Lord more diligently. And whereas he was desirous to go to Achaia, the brethren exhorting, wrote to the disciples to receive him. Who, when he was come, helped them much who had believed. For with much vigour he convinced the Jews openly, showing by the scriptures, that Jesus is the Christ.

Immediately three things happen.
  • One, Priscilla and Aquila took him aside and explained to him more explicitly the teachings and way of Our Lord. What He had done and taught - and what the Lord has set up - One authoritative Church.
  • Two, Appollo listened to them (and women no less!) and
  • Three, he sought to join them (writing to the disciples to receive him) and did so.
    He didn’t start off trying to correct Priscilla and Aquila. He didn’t claim authority over them or the disciples. He didn’t start preaching heresies to them and trying to get them to accept his heresies. He submitted to the Truth. Period.
So yes of course - there is such a thing as inculpable or invincible ignorance. But once the message is delivered or the invitation offered, the response is either to listen and accept or not to listen and accept.

Now the soul of a validly baptized Christian outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church is already in jeopardy because he is cut off from many of the Sacraments Our Lord gave us (Confirmation, Confession, Holy Communion, Last Rites, possibly Sacramental Marriage). But choosing not to listen or choosing not to accept puts one’s soul in further jeopardy very seriously becaue, objectively speaking anyway, they lose the ol’ inculpability for their ignorance.

Yet we have to say that if they are actually “in the Spirit”, then the Holy Spirit will guide them to listen and accept the Truth. How much can we resist the Holy Spirit and still be abiding in Christ? And since Christ is Truth, how much of Him can we culpably reject and still abide in Him?

Serious questions here…and I know it might seem a little “shocking” at first. But as I suggested earlier, take some time and read through this whole thread to get a clearer picture of traditional* concerns* on the Charismatic movement…and the related topic ecumenism.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
OK people, here goes. I will try to answer your questions, objections, etc. In all that I have said, nothing has changed in the deposit of faith. It meaning has not changed. Understanding things more fully, does not change doctrine.

Vatican II was not a relaxation or throwing out of anything. I cannot understand and do not condone what many priests did, by “doing their own thing” and claiming it was VII, because it was not. This is where much confusion came into the Church. I know of one case where a priest baptized his own child at a mass, with the full approval of the congregation. The next pastor, did not encourage devotions, such as rosary, adoration, confession, saying that these are not necessary any more. Thank God these have since been removed. This Church now has a new pastor, who is Catholic to the Core in every good way you can imagine. I have been helping him over the past several years in any way I can. When he got there, there were three masses only on the week end, with hardly anyone at any of them. Now there are not only daily mass, but 5 masses on weekends with standing room only. Eucharistic adoration is now ongoing and growing in leaps and bounds. These changes were brought about not by going in and condemning all that were involved, but by showing the true way with loving care, encouragement and example.

One of you asked if Luther was right. He was right on one score, that there were abuses in the Church. . We can thank the Holy Spirit that no doctrine was involved. Understand this, that at the time of Luther, the average priest had what we would call a 6th grade education today. That has now drastically changed to where now priests have not only high school but 8 years or more of college as their educational base. I will admit, not all use it, but the vast majority do. Don’t forget Luther came at the time of the selling of indulgences (which was wrong) and the pope, Alexander VI, was known for not being what we would today expect a pope to be. This is part of the why of the separation.

Now, for those born into families of the separation, there is no sin. Think of how they have been raised and taught. In some cases, out and out hatred of all that is Catholic was pounded into them , through no fault of their own. I do not condemn them, I entrust them to God’s infinite Divine Mercy. Only he can read their souls.
I have been in situations with people like these, that when their is Catholic speaking, they cover their ears and run, because that is what has been ingrained into them to do to protect their souls. I know some protestants even today that have been taught and strongly believe that if they step into a Catholic Church, they are going to hell. This kind of inculcation is most difficult to overcome, not from the perspective of the individual, but from the perspective of their individual communities, and many do live in close knit communities. These people need prayers, love example and loving mercy, not condemnation. Baptismal grace can lead them to the true Church. I have seen this done where some come up and tell a priest their circumstances and fear of going further, yet feel drawn. This is the Holy Spirit working in them. It is like one wandering out of the wilderness.

To the degree that they reject truth, when they are capable of understanding it, and it is presented correctly, but walk away, do not condemn. Know that the seed has been planted and let the Holy Spirit take over. Each individual will react differently, but in his own time under the Guidance of the Spirit. They may be seeking, feel drawn, bur are not there yet. If they die, these are looked at with love by the Spirit for truly seeking and will be judged accordingly, with infinite mercy and justice.

I would encourage one thing for all of you. Read the CCC, paragraphs 811 through 870 When you do so, really reflect on it. This is the section that deals with the marks of the Church, i.e., One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Read to understand, not to refute, that will not help you. Take this all in light of God’s Infinite Love and Infinite Divine Mercy and look at it like you would apply it with love, not chastisement or condemnation. This way you will grow.
Deacon Ed B
 
Dear Irish Saint. 1st let me say that I use Deacon Ed B because there is another member by the name of Deacon Ed. Because of that I use the first initial of my last name. You are correct in all you say. Do read all the references I pointed out in my last post. This will help. In another part of the CCC, one part even says that all those who truly seek, but have not yet found the Catholic Church are indeed Catholic. I know I read it in the CCC, but have been unable to find it, that is why I am hesitant to say it. This expands the common definition of what most would accept as being Catholic. So than, maybe we are both saying the same thing, just differently. My whole point was not to start another thread, but to explain that the Charisms of the Holy Spirit are given freely to those who seek them and want to be closer to God and how infinite is the Divine Mercy and Love. I know of one woman who is non Catholic that spends the first 3 hours of each day on her knees in prayers of love and praise thanking God for all his gifts and for all he has done, especially in dying for us on the Cross. She corrects those who are are wrong and lives the 10 Commandments strictly. While not being Catholic, she is a person I would call holy and good to the core. She praises Jesus all day even while working. She even takes in poor and the lost into her home to help them and teach them of the love of Jesus. She shows and lives a genuine love of Jesus. I see Gods love and mercy at work in her. I will let you draw your conclusions as to her salvation. Again, trust in God’s mercy, it is infinite.
Deacon Ed B
Your post brings to mind this passage from the CCC

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

And this one:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Believers from these communites are considered Catholic, even though they do not know it, and many would be abhorred to think of its.
 
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Believers from these communites are considered Catholic, even though they do not know it, and many would be abhorred to think of its.
Are you saying that they do not need to join to the Catholic Church because they are already Catholic?
The Catechism says “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as a** means of salvation**”
But not the necessary means which can only be found in the Catholic Church. Hopefully these “means of salvation” will lead them to the Catholic Faith.
The catechism says" many elements of sanctification and of truth". It says many but not all. These communities do not have the **necessary means **of salvation that can come from the sanctifying grace that one receives from Confirmation, Confession, the Holy Eucharist, the last rites. These communities are lacking the “necessary” means. To think otherwise is to believe that one religion is as good as another.
 
St Maria, read the paragraphs i referenced in my last post,. It should answer your question satisfactorily.
Deacon Ed B
 
St Maria, read the paragraphs i referenced in my last post,. It should answer your question satisfactorily.
Deacon Ed B
I have read in the non-christian section of this forum where protestants use this very quote from the Catechism. They believe that they are saved, without joining the Catholic Church, because they believe that this quote means that they are saved because their Protestant Church is a “means of salvation” and therefore they are saved.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
 
OK people, here goes. I will try to answer your questions, objections, etc. In all that I have said, nothing has changed in the deposit of faith. It meaning has not changed. Understanding things more fully, does not change doctrine.

Vatican II was not a relaxation or throwing out of anything. I cannot understand and do not condone what many priests did, by “doing their own thing” and claiming it was VII, because it was not. This is where much confusion came into the Church. I know of one case where a priest baptized his own child at a mass, with the full approval of the congregation. The next pastor, did not encourage devotions, such as rosary, adoration, confession, saying that these are not necessary any more. Thank God these have since been removed. This Church now has a new pastor, who is Catholic to the Core in every good way you can imagine. I have been helping him over the past several years in any way I can. When he got there, there were three masses only on the week end, with hardly anyone at any of them. Now there are not only daily mass, but 5 masses on weekends with standing room only. Eucharistic adoration is now ongoing and growing in leaps and bounds. These changes were brought about not by going in and condemning all that were involved, but by showing the true way with loving care, encouragement and example.

One of you asked if Luther was right. He was right on one score, that there were abuses in the Church. . We can thank the Holy Spirit that no doctrine was involved. Understand this, that at the time of Luther, the average priest had what we would call a 6th grade education today. That has now drastically changed to where now priests have not only high school but 8 years or more of college as their educational base. I will admit, not all use it, but the vast majority do. Don’t forget Luther came at the time of the selling of indulgences (which was wrong) and the pope, Alexander VI, was known for not being what we would today expect a pope to be. This is part of the why of the separation.

Now, for those born into families of the separation, there is no sin. Think of how they have been raised and taught. In some cases, out and out hatred of all that is Catholic was pounded into them , through no fault of their own. I do not condemn them, I entrust them to God’s infinite Divine Mercy. Only he can read their souls.
I have been in situations with people like these, that when their is Catholic speaking, they cover their ears and run, because that is what has been ingrained into them to do to protect their souls. I know some protestants even today that have been taught and strongly believe that if they step into a Catholic Church, they are going to hell. This kind of inculcation is most difficult to overcome, not from the perspective of the individual, but from the perspective of their individual communities, and many do live in close knit communities. These people need prayers, love example and loving mercy, not condemnation. Baptismal grace can lead them to the true Church. I have seen this done where some come up and tell a priest their circumstances and fear of going further, yet feel drawn. This is the Holy Spirit working in them. It is like one wandering out of the wilderness.

To the degree that they reject truth, when they are capable of understanding it, and it is presented correctly, but walk away, do not condemn. Know that the seed has been planted and let the Holy Spirit take over. Each individual will react differently, but in his own time under the Guidance of the Spirit. They may be seeking, feel drawn, bur are not there yet. If they die, these are looked at with love by the Spirit for truly seeking and will be judged accordingly, with infinite mercy and justice.

I would encourage one thing for all of you. Read the CCC, paragraphs 811 through 870 When you do so, really reflect on it. This is the section that deals with the marks of the Church, i.e., One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Read to understand, not to refute, that will not help you. Take this all in light of God’s Infinite Love and Infinite Divine Mercy and look at it like you would apply it with love, not chastisement or condemnation. This way you will grow.
Deacon Ed B
This statement is exibit 1A for relativism. It is also an example of man trying to use his intellect to rationalize what seems fair to all. Protestants, Jew, Muslim, are all outside the Church, some more than others, that is why our baptismal call is to evangalize to all for their salvation.
 
Tell me if this makes sense:

Imagine that everyone is at the bottom of a gorge and the only way out is to climb up, or walk down a gentle hill to the bottom. Now climbing up gets you to a beautiful paradise where you will be eternally happy (heaven). Walking down the hill, there appears to be a paradise, but when you arrive, you cannot leave and everything is poisonous to the touch (hell).
Now for those who try the climb up, there are many different ways, but a long time ago a man (Jesus) climbed all the way from the bottom, to the top and he left a trail. Now this trail is most visible to the people (Catholics especially the pope and bishops) who have been shown the signs by which Jesus marked the path. These people have the job of guiding all the other people who are climbing. Some people who are following the guides can decide not to and others can just give up and go down. Sometimes even the guides make mistakes and go down bringing a whole line of people with them. People who are not following the guides may find the signs and then realize that they must follow the guides and then they go and follow the guides. Then there are those who do not realize until the end that they must follow the guides, but it is too late to find a guide.
Now at the top is a small ledge that people can stand on for just a moment, and in that moment they must decide to jump over another chasm, or fall to hell. They must ask Jesus to help them to jump over the chasm and they must be sorry for all the times that they messed up and started to go down during their climb. And if they are sorry, and if they ask for Jesus’ help (the chasm is too wide for the climbers to jump alone) then they will reach the other side. But if they do not they will fall and the climb would have been for nothing.
So the people who realize too late that they need a guide, can still reach heaven, if they ask Jesus’ help and if they are sorry for every climbing down.
Also those who went down the easy hill all their life can, at the last moment if they have sorrow for walking down, and if they realize that they should have followed the guide, they can ask for Jesus’ help and he will though them a rope and pull them to heaven.

Now my analogy is not perfect, and it does not include purgatory (I could not figure that part out 🤷 ), but it came to me and I thought I would share it. Because there are many people who have not formally Catholic, who do reach heaven, but they first must have sorrow for their sins, and they must trust in God’s mercy. Some people may die without ever realizing that when they have sorrow for their sins, and when they trust in God, and when they follow the basic truths that God has imbedded in everyone, some people never realize that they are really trying to be Catholic, but they are. I don’t know if my analogy will help, and I certainly hope it will do no harm.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: Forgive my bad grammar and misspellings:blush:
PSS: Please tell me your thoughts.
 
To St Maria, what you describe is the result of not being under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not having an infallible Magisterium as their teacher.

To Latinmass, I agree with what you say about being called to evangelize. I will add that this evangelization goes not just to protestants, but also to Catholics who do not properly know their faith. That is what is called Catechesis, i.e., to know your faith, to live your faith, and to teach your faith. As far as the claim of relativism, with which I strongly disagree & do not believe in nor teach in any way, shape or form, I would ask that you please be so kind as to enunciate each of the points you feel is relativism and then say why? This would be much easier to answer than trying to guess at your points. Please be specific.

To Margarite - You are entirely correct that part of salvation includes contrition for sins committed. What you describe as embedded in their hearts (and ours) is the natural law which, when reduced to writing is known as the 10 Commandments.
Deacon Ed B
 
To St Maria, what you describe is the result of not being under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not having an infallible Magisterium as their teacher.
With all due respect, what stmaria described is protestants using the very words of the magesterum in the CCC (and therefore of VII since it makes up about 90% of the footnotes) to defend their notion of salvation and to make the claim that the Catholic Church *reversed *EENS.

Here’s the paragraph pointed out by stmaria…
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And here’s the footnotes for that paragraph…273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.

I point this out for two reasons. One, it proves the ambeguity inherent in this paragraph. For no one could mistakenly come to the erroneous conclusion that there is no need to convert by reading Trent or Vatican I or the pre-Counciliar encyclicals. In fact, taken just by itself (or even with the rest of the CCC) this certainly can give the impression that protestants are fine just where they are, but that perhaps they’d be better off in the Church. This is erroneous and is put in its proper place by reading the text of the CCC and VII in light of all that was proclaimed and taught before. I’ve quoted numerous of these statements of yesteryear, but no one aside from traditional folks wants to touch 'em with a ten foot pole. To me this is very strange.

The other reason for pointing this out is to give you a chance to explain your response to stmaria above - I have no idea the point you are trying to make.
To Latinmass, I agree with what you say about being called to evangelize. I will add that this evangelization goes not just to protestants, but also to Catholics who do not properly know their faith.
True enough, but don’t you see your immediate reaction is to lump protestants (those outside HMC) and catholics (those inside HMC) in the same category…blurring a very, very important line so to speak.
That is what is called Catechesis, i.e., to know your faith, to live your faith, and to teach your faith.
And isn’t part of that faith understanding the enternal necessity of belonging to the Church Christ founded? Isn’t rejecting this truth a sin against the command to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind?
As far as the claim of relativism, with which I strongly disagree & do not believe in nor teach in any way, shape or form, I would ask that you please be so kind as to enunciate each of the points you feel is relativism and then say why? This would be much easier to answer than trying to guess at your points. Please be specific.
I see it, but I’ll let LatinMass speak for himself here 😉 .
To Margarite - You are entirely correct that part of salvation includes contrition for sins committed.
What about the sin of remaining separated from the Church Christ founded? What about the sin of neglecting to listen to Her and come home?
What you describe as embedded in their hearts (and ours) is the natural law which, when reduced to writing is known as the 10 Commandments.
And I’ll again say, refusing to enter the Church Christ founded is objectively a sin against the 1st Commandment - and against Christ’s supreme commandment: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
…Now, for those born into families of the separation, there is no sin.
Not for the being born into it - but for the remaining in it after hearing the call and invitation to HMC, there certainly can be.
…Think of how they have been raised and taught. In some cases, out and out hatred of all that is Catholic was pounded into them , through no fault of their own. I do not condemn them,
Of course not - you can’t judge them personally one way or the other, the only thing you can do is go by what you see - and objectively what you see is a person outside HMC. And thus, with all gentleness and charity, err on the side of caution, acknowledge the peril they are in, and invite 'em home!
…I entrust them to God’s infinite Divine Mercy. Only he can read their souls.
Of course - but this is what the Church has always done on the individual basis.

As far as being raised and taught outside HMC - this is true of every adult convert that ever walked the face of the earth - this isn’t something that we just realized a few decades ago.

Somehow I don’t think the Apostles were much influenced by such thinking in the first centuries (or the Church in general centuries thereafte). Thing is, at the very instant we started changing the “approach” to evangilizing, the numbers started to go south and much confusion ensued inside and outside the Church on exactly what the heck happened to EENS.

Further, while we can be compassionate and concerned for these souls individually for having been brought up surrounded by false teachings that condemn Christ’s Church as false - we should in no way have compassion and concern for the teachings themselves…these we must condemn. Clearly and withot apology!

One difference between “now and then” is that, for example in the paragraphs you mention, praise is being heaped upon false religions for the elements of truth not yet rejected while nothing is spoken of that indicates that the errors also therein are condemned heresies - and they can lead a soul straight to hell. It’s the deafening sound of silence where their should be condemnation and a clear call to conversion.
…I have been in situations with people like these, that when their is Catholic speaking, they cover their ears and run, because that is what has been ingrained into them to do to protect their souls. I know some protestants even today that have been taught and strongly believe that if they step into a Catholic Church, they are going to hell. This kind of inculcation is most difficult to overcome,
It sure is - but that’s where grace comes into play. And such has always been difficult, conversion is difficult on the natural level. On the supernatural level, we know the Holy Spirit is there providing all the grace necessary to say “YES!”

This also goes to what alot of the saints have said over the centuries - that a little heresy with much truth is actually *more dangerous *than a lot of heresy with a little truth. It’s harder to see through it all and thus the devil can use such things to ensnare many souls.
…not from the perspective of the individual, but from the perspective of their individual communities, and many do live in close knit communities.
Lost me there - I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

(continued below…)
 
(continued from above…)
…These people need prayers, love example and loving mercy, not condemnation.
Absolutely we need to offer prayers for them and show them love and loving mecy. But for the false teachings themselves, they absolutely need forceful and explicit condemnation. For if we fail to do that, we appear to have changed our own teachings which would nullify any call to conversion in the first place since the hallmark of the Catholic Church is the fullness of Truth - unchanging Truth. If truth changes in the Catholic Church, then all bets are off.

And I will say this…I’ve met many, many protestants…close friends and work associates…some left the Church and some are kids of parents who left the Church decades ago after VII. Almost to a one, the second you share with them the truth about the unchanging Truth of Catholic Teaching…they roll their eyes because they “know” the Church changed its teaching on Protestantism and the need for conversion to the Church for their eternal salvation. And you try to charitibly and compassionately clarify their misunderstanding and guess who jumps up and defends their erroneous understanding? Other Catholics. Yeah…there is much confusion out there right now. Lord have mercy.

One more case in point before I run out of character space…the current outcry of Jewish “authorities” regarding their necessity to convert and the updating of the prayer for Jewish conversion in the '62 missal. Say what you want about the authentic true teaching of the Church - but somehow, some way, in 30-40 years of post VII ecumenical talks, these folks came up with the notion that the Catholic Church changed it’s teaching regarding the necessity of conversion for Jewish folks. Now how in the world did they ever get that idea???
…To the degree that they reject truth, when they are capable of understanding it, and it is presented correctly, but walk away, do not condemn.
We don’t save and neither do we condemn. Yes we hope the seed is planted there, but we continue to pray for them for the salvation of their souls which is in peril outside the bonds of HMC - especially since the call to enter her was given. Simply pointing out and acknowledging the reality of the peril they are in in this state is not condemning them…in fact, it’s what motivates us to be further charitable and compassionate and to further pray for their souls.

It’s when we stop acknowledging the peril they are in that we stop issuing the call to conversion, stop praying for their conversion, and stop “dropping the seeds” so to speak.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
To Dustins Dad - Yes, they use the words of the Magisterium, but do not know how to interpret it. Did you see where they ever spoke of contrition. I did not. Without contrition, there is no salvation.

You also speak of the need to convert. Ask yourself this question. If they have had no opportunity to convert, but still are
baptized and try to live the Commandments and do…Are you saying they are still going to hell because they are not Catholic. The Church says they are not. Perhaps you should speak to your bishop, or a good theologian that you know. See what they say.

As for the statement on evangelization, and your reply, are you saying that some Catholics do not need evangelization??? That would indeed be wonderful if it were true, but I don’t think that is the case. The essential part of the Catechesis is making sure people know their faith, and that the Church also does not teach that everyone not Catholic is going to hell.

As to the “sin” of failing to listen to the Church and coming home, what about those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard.? What would be their sin? Part of rejecting is not just hearing, but it entails understanding. At this point I would agree with you. You can hear and not understand,. That is not a sin.

Your last section on the 1st commandment deals with a sin against faith, which is also covered by the first commandment. My question would be if one does not have the true faith, through no fault of his own, where is his sin? These are some of the things that the CCC addresses. To go back to the words of Francis Cardinal Arinze, “Read it, eat it, digest it.” We all have more eating to do.
Deacon Ed B
 
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