Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[DebChris]

This thread appears to be headed in a direction contrary to the Love to which Christ calls us.
As I read the Old Testament, I notice a pattern. God allows no harm to come to His people as long as they remain faithful to the covenant that he made with them. When the people of God, the Israelites, turn from God they are led into captivity. God even allows His Temple to be destroyed when the Israelites put more importance on the Temple than on God himself.
The Charismatic Renewal is subservient to the Church. Its members are called to obedience to the magisterium. Above all, we are called to obedience to Christ. This obedience to Christ is obedience to the Church. Christ is the head of the Church and each of us, despite our sinfulness, are part of the Body of Christ. We are the Church and we are called to live in unity with one another.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ll be candid:
uote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Keep talking Flame of Christ----yes keep talking. By your words --you are bringing up to the surface what the CCR is becoming. Opposing the CCR is now supposedly opposing God. Only the Church Herself is identified with God —not some movement that by your words looks to be in the process of putting itself over and above the Church.

I’ll be candid:
If this is from God, then opposing it is opposing God.

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Since our current Pope then Card. said that we can indeed be at odds with a Pope—and You have taken my opposition to the CCR as rejection of the Church Herself ---- it shows that the internal workings of the CCR are becoming skewed—therefore this does not reflect God.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

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Since our current Pope then Card. said that we can indeed be at odds with a Pope—and You have taken my opposition to the CCR as rejection of the Church Herself ---- it shows that the internal workings of the CCR are becoming skewed—therefore this does not reflect God.

I’d like to offer my hand in peace with you brother.

I really don’t want this thread to become such a disagreement. And I pray that we would both better understand each other.

May the Lord be kind to us both.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking Home,

I can understand being hesitant to go to a CCR event, but I can’t at all understand opposing something that is so much supported by the whole church.

In my mind, that seems to be walking on thin ice. You could be very wrong to oppose this. Especially since the Popes are by no means neutral, they are voicing their full support for us.

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You are still trying to identify the CCR with the Church Herself. You keep overlooking what our current Pope did say—that we can be at odds with a Pope. Being at odds with a Pope/Popes concerning the CCR — does not in any way or form undermine my standing within the Church. No matter how much you try to make it seem as if I am opposing God — the real truth is that I am not.

 

[DebChris]

Charismata=Any good gift that flows from God’s benevolent love (charis) unto man; the spiritual graces and qualifications granted to every Christian to perform his task in the Church; extraordinary graces given to individual Christians for the good of others

This definition of the gifts manifested by members of the Charismatic Renewal comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia, online version associated with this site.

 

[Walking_Home]

Charismata=Any good gift that flows from God’s benevolent love (charis) unto man;** the spiritual graces and qualifications granted to every Christian to perform his task in the Church; extraordinary graces given to individual Christians for the good of others**

This definition of the gifts manifested by members of the Charismatic Renewal comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia, online version associated with this site.

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People thru out the past centuries — have had the spiritual graces and qualifications to perform his/her task within the Church and have used these graces for the good of others. This has always been part of the Church–the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within Her —and the fruit of the sacraments. All — without the CCR.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Please everyone, lets stop and take a deep breath. That includes me also. What are we talking about. THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT all given to us at BAPTISM AND CONFIRMATION. We are all Catholic, or at least most of us. Where is the reflection of the quote, "You will know they are Christians by their love.? I do not condemn anyone for not wanting to be part of this movement. Those of you who are not, don’t condemn us who are. We all have only one head, that is Jesus. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. God is our Father. You will all be in my prayers at mass and Communion today. Gods choicest blessings on each of you
Deacon Ed B

 

[Freshman88]

Please everyone, lets stop and take a deep breath. That includes me also. What are we talking about. THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT all given to us at BAPTISM AND CONFIRMATION. We are all Catholic, or at least most of us. Where is the reflection of the quote, "You will know they are Christians by their love.? I do not condemn anyone for not wanting to be part of this movement. Those of you who are not, don’t condemn us who are. We all have only one head, that is Jesus. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. God is our Father. You will all be in my prayers at mass and Communion today. Gods choicest blessings on each of you
Deacon Ed B

Thank you for your prayers Deacon Ed.

That said, I would think most traditionalists do not condemn the members of the movement but rather the movement itself. I also respectfully disagree that we are talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, if it were evident to anti-Charismatics that this movement is an expression of the Holy Spirit, then we wouldn’t be debating this movement.

Also, that pope’s have expressed their favor to this mass is not in the least convincing. You must realize that this a traditionalist sub-forum, filled with traditionalist minded Catholics who are anything but trusting of the opinions of modern popes.

 

[palmas85]

I really do feel like a new apostle ever since I recevied the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I am not sure if you will understand but I am not preaching about myself here, I preaching about the power of the Holy Spirit to transform you if you ask Him to and open yourself up to the graces that might be lying dormant in you from the sacraments that you have already received.

The apparent assumption that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are lying dormant is what bothers me That and the fact that apparently the Charismatic movement is somehow required to bring them out. Lets remember that for almost 2000 years the Holy Spirit** HAS** indeed been working through the Catholic Church, It didn’t miraculously start in the mid sixties with the advent of the so called “baptism of the Holy Spirit” being asked for by Catholics.

I see from your post that you do feel like a new Apostle. Well that speaks volumes actually. I’m glad that you do but consider one thing.

Protestants have absolutely nothing in communities other than a distorted view of what the Church is. They need gimmicks as it were because they do not have the fullness of the faith. Since Christ is not present in their communities they have to use something to keep the people interested. Lets remember too that the charismatic movement in the Protestant communities came about as a rebellion against the liberal policies and beliefs that many of the protestant communities were instituting in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

The Catholic Church on the other hand has Christ present, physically, spiritually, wholly and completely present at all times. Having that important thing that they don’t and will never have, why do we need anything else? We don’t need the gimmicks, not if we accept and understand the Churches teachings which sadly, many apparently do not.

Another problem as I see it is that charismatics seem almost to place the Holy Spirit and Christ into a competition of some sort. Almost as if they are saying, Yes, you receive these gifts at Baptism and Confirmation but in order to fully appreciate them you **need **to go to the Holy Spirit through the Charismatic movement to unlock them.

I don’t think that is sound theologically.

As far as the Holy Spirit goes, I believe He has the power to influence anyone He chooses, with the Charismatic movement or without it.

 

[Freshman88]

The apparent assumption that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are lying dormant is what bothers me

I agree. What also bugs me is that they present this movement as being the manifestation of the gifts of the holy spirit and so to question the charismatic movement we are also somehow questioning the holy spirit.

As far as the Holy Spirit goes, I believe He has the power to influence anyone He chooses, with the Charismatic movement or without it.

Amen.

 

[DebChris]

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People thru out the past centuries — have had the spiritual graces and qualifications to perform his/her task within the Church and have used these graces for the good of others. This has always been part of the Church–the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within Her —and the fruit of the sacraments. All — without the CCR.

I am not going to argue about who has or has not had charismata in the past. The reality is that there is no such thing as a lone ranger Christian. Even persons like St. Francis found others willing to follow the same lifestyle the Lord called him to. We need one another.No person is given all the gifts. One of the advantages of being able to go to prayer groups, etc. is that we discover others with the same or complimentary gifts. Those who have been “walking in the Spiit” for a long time help those who have just received the various gifts learn to use them.
As mentioned earlier discernment is a major component of the Charismatic Renewal. This is often missing in the new Charismatic and the experience of others is needed. As mentioned throughout this thread the purpose of the charismata is service to the Church and to God. Again from the Jesus Conference I attended in Chicago, “It is possible to be so full of the Spirit as to loose sight of the Spirit.” Those with experience help temper this zealousness so that the new person can learn to truly listen to God.
There have been long periods of time when being able to enjoy the fellowship of other Charismatics has been unavailable to me. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the work of the Holy Spirit. There are times when God will pull individuals away from the meetings and other activities to work personally with that person. Formation, which like conversion is a lifelong process, takes different forms. Sometimes it is being part of a Charismatic prayer groups. Other times it is silent retreats or making a Cursillo. There are times when it means working in a soup kitchen or spending time in private prayer. What is important is that God is in charge. Like St. Paul and St. Theresa of Avila, I have been knocked off my horse as a reminder.
Have you ever been to a healing Mass? After Mass, individuals are prayed over by both charismatic laity and clergy. The last time I as able to attend one, a group of charismatics suddenly went over to pray for a woman sitting in the pew; a different woman asked me why. They had received what is called a prompting of the Spirit. I did not receive the same prompting.
God knows our sitting and our standing. I experienced how true this statement is while still a young Charismatic at my first regional conference. A nun asked me a question. After answering her, I walked away. When I had second thoughts and came back she told me, “The Lord said He was bringing somebody to me. When you walked away he said, 'don’t worry she will be right back.” God is indeed all knowing!
Each of us have been given special gifts. Being charismatic is not a requirement to become a lector of EMCH. As mentioned earlier, it is not always possible to know who is or is not charismatic.
Please look back to my earlier post with the links not only to the Vatican site of the ICCR but also to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults. Look at what the magisterium has to say.
Strife is a luxury that Christians cannot afford.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

You must realize that this a traditionalist sub-forum, filled with traditionalist minded Catholics who are anything but trusting of the opinions of modern popes.

To say that traditional Catholics are anything but trusting in the opinions of modern popes, is saying you are not trusting of the opinion of Peter. I would run from that position as fast as my feeble legs could carry my overweight body.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Freshman88]

To say that traditional Catholics are anything but trusting in the opinions of modern popes, is saying you are not trusting of the opinion of Peter.

But we are trusting of the opinion of Peter, especially those Pope’s who were faithful to the traditions of the Church. There is only a problem with a modern pope when a modern pope conflicts with a previous pope.

 

[Dorothy]

I have been involved with Catholic charismatic renewal for 28 years. It has been about three years since I have attended a prayer group.

It was a great blessing to me, as good leadership was involved in the renewal in both states that I lived in. A contemplative priest gave us spiritual direction, and put the gifts in their proper perspective. The Eucharist, and devotion to our Blessed Mother was central to his direction. He also promoted the Liturgy of the Hourse, and had books by Carmelite saints on prayer on his book table. This was not the case with other groups in the area.

While the popes have not condemned the movement, they also have not told us that we must be a part of it. Of course the popes would encourage groups that have good direction and right motivation. Obviously, the popes do not attend every group and so are not able to discern serious problems that some may have. That is left to the local priests, and not all of them have the time to be involved.

When I moved to the south from the north I was again blessed by the charismatic renewal in that there was a prayer group of about 12 to 25 in most Catholic parishes, and the core group leaders met once a month with a priest liason to our Bishop. This helped keep things in line as to how they should be.

When we had our annual 3-day conferences for the diocese, with excellent speakers, our Bishop attended the closing Mass on Sunday. On Saturday evening we had a quiet and very reverent procession of the Blessed Sacrament as our priest slowly walked around the entire area with the Blessed Sacrament. It is always a blessed and powerful moment at that event.

I would like to add that every spiritual movement in the Church needs constant renewal and attention. There are always great things that happen, and also some disasters. Also, I no longer attend prayer meetings as the Lord has led me to be a stronger part of the Lay Carmelite group that I belong to. A deep prayer life is the journey that all movements should lead to, and for me it reached a point where charismatic prayer was now a distraction to that goal.

Throughout the years I have seen many people refreshed and renewed in their faith through the renewal. I don’t see it as the be-all and end-all of all spiritual movements. A deep life of prayer in an individual, whether or not they attend a charismatic prayer group, will enable them to manifest the gifts of the Holy Spirit to others without any fanfare.

In Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

But we are trusting of the opinion of Peter, especially those Pope’s who were faithful to the traditions of the Church. There is only a problem with a modern pope when a modern pope conflicts with a previous pope.

Do not confuse TRADITION with tradition . Tradition with a small “t” is not binding. All it does for some is to create a comfort zone. The tradition you are talking about is the tradition of “man” Any pope has the full authority, given under the binding and loosing granted by Jesus. They can do this with full God given authority. We may not like it, but that is the way it is. TRADITION with the “big” T is one of the sources sof revelation which we as Catholics have as part of our belief, i.e., that revelation comes through Scripture and Tradition. They “T” & “t” are not the same.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[DebChris]

Thank you Dorothy for succintly saying much of what I have been trying to say.
The Charismatic Renewal is not about prayer groups or the outward manifestations of the Spirit as much as it is transformation of the heart.
When I first became a part of the Renewal, I was attending retreats once a month. Some were Charismatic while most were silent. I was driving 50 miles one direction in order to attend the only prayer meeting available in the area of Wisconsin where I lived. One day on the way to another retreat/conference I was in a car accident that took me off a 75 foot embankment.
Whether charismatic or not, we are each called to obedience to God above anything else.
There are many different ways in which God works to form His people…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thank you Dorothy for succintly saying much of what I have been trying to say.
The Charismatic Renewal is not about prayer groups or the outward manifestations of the Spirit as much as it is transformation of the heart.
When I first became a part of the Renewal, I was attending retreats once a month. Some were Charismatic while most were silent. I was driving 50 miles one direction in order to attend the only prayer meeting available in the area of Wisconsin where I lived. One day on the way to another retreat/conference I was in a car accident that took me off a 75 foot embankment.
Whether charismatic or not, we are each called to obedience to God above anything else.
There are many different ways in which God works to form His people…

AMEN to this
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Freshman88]

Do not confuse TRADITION with tradition . Tradition with a small “t” is not binding. All it does for some is to create a comfort zone. The tradition you are talking about is the tradition of “man” Any pope has the full authority, given under the binding and loosing granted by Jesus. They can do this with full God given authority. We may not like it, but that is the way it is. TRADITION with the “big” T is one of the sources sof revelation which we as Catholics have as part of our belief, i.e., that revelation comes through Scripture and Tradition. They “T” & “t” are not the same.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I haven’t confused anything, and I am perplexed as to why you have highlighted this distinction.

 

[po18guy]

AMEN to this
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

It seems we are more tolerant of liturgical abuses and the infestation of modernism than to the CCR. It is right that some refer to the Holy Spirit as the forgotten person of God. I do not agree with everything in the CCR, but the baptism in the Holy Spirit by a charismatic priest lit my faith on fire! It is absolutely amazing!

To the naysayers: Try it. God will like it.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I haven’t confused anything, and I am perplexed as to why you have highlighted this distinction.

What I am pointing out to you is that the “modern popes” have been staying faithful to the traditions of the Church. Please re read your own post that I responded to
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B